“I was predestined to be an Arminian or I chose to be a Calvinist.”

[psalms109:31]

And I agree with you. I disagree with Calvinists that say faith is a gift of God. Calvinists say that you cannot have faith until/unless God regenerates your totally depraved heart so you can accept God's gift of faith. Yet we see in scripture dozens of times where obviously unregenerate people had faith, or faith was found in them. Notice that phrase "faith was found in them," not faith was gifted to them or faith was put inside them.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous. I believe faith is a noun like Jesus, His word. Which we have gotten as a gift from the witnesses God sent out. Now trust, and believe a verb is an action that comes from us. God does not have to believe and trust in Himself. If someone does not trust or believe in the grace of God through Jesus Christ do you think that they possess it?

Faith without deeds is dead and faith without love that person is nothing.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

 

[Van]

I BELIEVE IN IT ...In all the Doctrines of Grace! So what are you now questioning ...."My Salvation" & the salvation of each and everyone who does? NICE.

Id wish you had any real guts because then youd give a solid "YES" to the question. Come on....stand up for your convictions! :godisgood:

Hi EWF, I see you are back at the mind reading booth, where you tell others what non-Calvinists really think.

First, no one is saved because of their doctrine. So your view is mistaken. Jesus saves those who trust fully in Him, even if they have mistaken views. When Jesus was separating the goats from the sheep, did He say those who are Calvinists over here, and those who are non-Calvinists over there? Nope. It is all about a genuine love of Christ which is reflected in our love for one another.

As far as questioning my character and lack of real guts, how much courage does it take to insult others over the internet?

Calvinists say all sorts of things, many of them true. However, to say an unregenerate man could not be entering heaven because of total spiritual inability is simply to rewrite Matthew 23:13 which has folks entering heaven who are blocked by false doctrine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

James said we all make mistakes, what I meant was that some people who think they know it all, which calvinists seem to say and yet still call sunday the Lords Day the sabbath.

That was a slip, sorry.

Heh? Now your are loosing me.....therefore I will withold commentary untill you explain further.

Tell me though.....How do you define Calvinist?

 

[Van]

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous

Calvinism claims it anyway. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Pretty hard for God to regenerate someone before they are chosen. So the order from scripture is corporate election before the foundation of the world, i.e. we were chosen in Him, then individual election through faith in the truth during our lifetime. Pretty simple really. When our Redeemer was chosen, those who would be redeemed were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

With this view, everything falls into place, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God decides who believes in Him, i.e. He credits our faith as righteousness or not. Those credited are spiritually placed in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit who sets us apart. Pretty simple really.

 

[InTheLight]

It was a not a saving faith, after the cross, remember He had not died at this time.

I think your forgetting all the Old Testament saints that had saving faith in the coming Messiah. Christ had not been crucified yet. Weren't they saved?

Anyway, the Bible says,

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


These people trusted Jesus to heal their friends because they believed in Him, as the Son of God. Are you saying that is not saving faith?

Yeah He marvelled, what did they have faith in? Not the Lamb of God thats for sure because He had not yet been slain. Your narrow minded.

John the Baptist, John 1 (Jesus not slain yet)

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[WITBOTL]

You have not addressed what Benjamin previously objected to when he said,



You've merely restated that man does have volitional abilities and man does not have them. <shrugs>

No actually I stated that his concept of volition is incorrect. Free Will and Volition are not synonymous terms which he is trying to make them.

If you want to fly can you use your volition to do it? No, because you do not have wings (or hollow bones ) there is a constraint upon your will due to your nature is there not?

I stated that man has volitional abilities but that they are constrained by his nature.

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinism claims it anyway. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Pretty hard for God to regenerate someone before they are chosen. So the order from scripture is corporate election before the foundation of the world, i.e. we were chosen in Him, then individual election through faith in the truth during our lifetime. Pretty simple really. When our Redeemer was chosen, those who would be redeemed were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

With this view, everything falls into place, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God decides who believes in Him, i.e. He credits our faith as righteousness or not. Those credited are spiritually placed in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit who sets us apart. Pretty simple really.

I believe regeneration before faith is a residue left over from hyper-Calvinism that Spurgeon a Calvinist addressed as being ridiculous. According to scripture and Peter said it all when people started leaving. He said where can we go for Jesus has the words of eternal life, he listened and learned. Jesus said that cause men to leave is that if we don't eat His flesh and drink His blood we don't have any life in us. The crowd was not being drawn by the Father, because they were not listening and learning, they were just following the crowd. The whole John chapter 6 has so much meat in it and when we focus on one of the sentences we let that blind us from what it is all teaching us in the whole chapter.

No one is saved outside of Jesus He is our sure foundation while the world around us is falling apart. We are told to remain in Him, even if we believe we are faithless. We are to trust in Him and not lean on our own understanding.

John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

 

[WITBOTL]

Please explain why Jesus found faith within unregenerate people?

The Centurion (gentile) in Matthew 8

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


The friends of the man sick with palsy in Matthew 9

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.


The woman who touched Jesus' garment and was healed in Matthew 9

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.


The woman whose daughter was healed of her demon possession in Matthew 15

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


I could go on and on. The point being here is God, as Jesus, finding faith in people. Any evidence from the context of the scripture that these people were regenerated and/or given the "gift of faith?" No.

I believe you might actually be unwittingly arguing my position.

If these people were unsaved as you state then their faith did not save them ie. they did not possess saving faith. The faith they had was not that faith which is the fruit of the Spirit. This is the whole point, Saving faith is a gift from God, a fruit of the Spirit and not an attribute of a fallen creature. Would you really argue that these people had the faith that saves, but were not saved?

James says:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?...

...Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Either he was advocating a works based salvation or he was saying that there is a faith unto salvation which PRODUCES works. If you don't have THAT kind of faith then it cannot save you.

My point is THAT kind of faith is a gift from God and a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hi EWF, I see you are back at the mind reading booth, where you tell others what non-Calvinists really think.

First, no one is saved because of their doctrine. So your view is mistaken. Jesus saves those who trust fully in Him, even if they have mistaken views. When Jesus was separating the goats from the sheep, did He say those who are Calvinists over here, and those who are non-Calvinists over there? Nope. It is all about a genuine love of Christ which is reflected in our love for one another.

As far as questioning my character and lack of real guts, how much courage does it take to insult others over the internet?

Calvinists say all sorts of things, many of them true. However, to say an unregenerate man could not be entering heaven because of total spiritual inability is simply to rewrite Matthew 23:13 which has folks entering heaven who are blocked by false doctrine.

I'm sorry but you have not studied Calvinistic theologians nearly enough to truly formulate your opinions completely & properly.

Have you read any early Puritans & Calvinists, say Cotton, Owen, Edwards, Whitefield, Bunyan or John Preston? Probably not, right. Preston for example wrote a book revered by Calvinists, "Marrow of Modern Divinity" in which he states that the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election (AGAIN FOR EMPHASIS: THE FOUNDATION OF THE FREE OFFERING OF THE GOSPEL IS NOT ELECTION). The foundation for the gospel is in Christ's promise to save all who come to Him in faith.

Now in addition to John Preston, you will find very similar teachings in the books by RC Sproul, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson & Martyn Lloyd-Jones. All these gentlemen will tell you that we do not offer Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is elect....but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him. Its just that simple.
Jesus Christ is able to save all who come to God through Him in faith.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I think your forgetting all the Old Testament saints that had saving faith in the coming Messiah. Christ had not been crucified yet. Weren't they saved?

Anyway, the Bible says,

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


These people trusted Jesus to heal their friends because they believed in Him, as the Son of God. Are you saying that is not saving faith?




John the Baptist, John 1 (Jesus not slain yet)

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

God is all knowing I agree. So that has to be taken into consideration. What get's me is why propounders of calvinism, relish in the fact that some people have no choice in the long run but hell? Maybe they like horror movies as well?

Let me ask one thing to a Calvinist, does God want all men to be saved or not and does God take pleasure in the death of anyone? Just a simple yes or no to both questions, nothing else, but yes or no.

I mean nothing else, no pages upon pages from sites like the puritan board, just a simple yes and no. Does God will people into hell or not. Is God not Light but shady? Yes or no only.

 

[MorseOp]

So you are either concluding that men like myself, Wesley, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Billy Graham, JRR Tolkien and many others were not 'one of his own' OR that these men all freely chose to reject Calvinism (by which you are admitting that libertarian freedom is possible).

Which one?

Neither. Because we are but men we are fraught with error. The saved Arminian and saved Calvinist will have the errant parts of their theology corrected in glory.

 

[Skandelon]

Neither. Because we are but men we are fraught with error.

So we have the choice between our error and God's actual truth...how do you propose we make that choice if you will not acknowledge free will?

The saved Arminian and saved Calvinist will have the errant parts of their theology corrected in glory.

That doesn't explain why there are differences. Either God decided for those who are in error to be in error, or they did.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Reject calvinism? The word is not even in the Bible. As to it's nature when it has power read up on John Penry a Welsh puritan and evangelist, John Whitgift and the Lambeth articles.... lovely calvinism.

Some links for John Penry etc

It's amazing how some calvinists like to use the name Martin Marprelate on forums.

http://www.holyfear.net/?p=399

http://www.holyfear.net/?p=508

 

[MorseOp]

So we have the choice between our error and God's actual truth...how do you propose we make that choice if you will not acknowledge free will?



That doesn't explain why there are differences. Either God decided for those who are in error to be in error, or they did.

I do acknowledge free will, just not according to your definition.

There are differences because of sin.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I do acknowledge free will, just not according to your definition.

There are differences because of sin.

[unchristian slander removed]

 

[Skandelon]

I do acknowledge free will, just not according to your definition.

There is nothing "free" about the compatibilistic definition of free will. I can explain why if you'd like, but you have to promise me to actually reply instead of disappearing like most have done when we get to this point in the debate.

There are differences because of sin.

That seems to suggest that sin (a choice of man) can and does supersede God's gracious provision to do otherwise, but we know you don't believe that. I think your short, incomplete and unclear responses say everything we need to know.

 

[SovereignMercy]

God is all knowing I agree. So that has to be taken into consideration. What get's me is why propounders of calvinism, relish in the fact that some people have no choice in the long run but hell? Maybe they like horror movies as well?

Let me ask one thing to a Calvinist, does God want all men to be saved or not and does God take pleasure in the death of anyone? Just a simple yes or no to both questions, nothing else, but yes or no.

I mean nothing else, no pages upon pages from sites like the puritan board, just a simple yes and no. Does God will people into hell or not. Is God not Light but shady? Yes or no only.

I have only quoted scripture and will do so here. God has already answered your question. You just don't like His clear answer.

As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...

The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."

 

[psalms109:31]

God raised Pharoah just like He raised Jacob up for His purpose.

Jacob will be the line that brings Jesus in who pay the sins of the world, praise Jesus. God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy on and He said He will show mercy on those who trust in His Son.

Which man believes they are the created vessel for mercy?

Jesus is the vessel of mercy we remain in Him and we know God will not make His Son suffer again. Any outside of Jesus Christ will face the wrath to come. Jesus is the only sure foundation. Our for fathers look for Him and we look at the one who has already come, the one who will and did crush the serpents head. Jesus is our vessel for salvation the arc God had made for us climb aboard He will no wise cast you out

Jesus is the house of mercy and in God's house there is many rooms and there is space for you.

 

[MorseOp]

There is nothing "free" about the compatibilistic definition of free will. I can explain why if you'd like, but you have to promise me to actually reply instead of disappearing like most have done when we get to this point in the debate.


That seems to suggest that sin (a choice of man) can and does supersede God's gracious provision to do otherwise, but we know you don't believe that. I think your short, incomplete and unclear responses say everything we need to know.

Skan, you're funny.

My simple answer "because of sin" simply comes to the point minus the verbosity. Every doctrinal disagreement is because of sin. Sin does not nullify God's plan. You know this.

As far as free will, you know the Calvinist view. Why expand or elaborate on what you know? Even under the Arminian schema the human will is not truly free. Man cannot will himself to be saved. Free will, under both schemas, is limited. You know this too.

 

[MorseOp]

Never placate a muslim or calvinist, by their fruit you will know them.

Placate?! That's a hoot. Calvinists don't want to be placated. We're not seeking common ground with Arminians beyond what already exists.