1 Cor. 1 and God's calling

[TCGreek]

What is the difference in him and every lost person. We either are the servant of God or the servant of the devil, right??

But according to a previous post of yours, Judas was chosen for the role of his life, if you will? Does that mean everyone else, wherever they end up when the dust is settled, was chosen for that role?

 

[Brother Bob]

But according to a previous post of yours, Judas was chosen for the role of his life, if you will? Does that mean everyone else, wherever they end up when the dust is settled, was chosen for that role?

I did not say that, I said he was chosen for what he was, a son of perdition. In due time if you please. You know how the Lord chose the swine for the evil spirits to go in??? Like that.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

I did not say that, I said he was chosen for what he was, a son of perdition. In due time if you please.

BBob,

Here's what you said in post 31: "I think Judas was chosen for what he was, a son of perdition, so as to carry out the plan of God. I don't know when Judas became a "son of perdition" but I do think he was chosen for that purpose."

Please, Explain to me the difference in my statement above and what are the obvious conclusions of this previous post of yours?

 

[TCGreek]

It seems to me that if God decided to harden your heart, you wouldn't have much choice about it. If He decides to show you mercy, He does it without your permission. He does what He wills.

........... I see.

 

[Brother Bob]

Here's what you said in post 31: "I think Judas was chosen for what he was, a son of perdition, so as to carry out the plan of God. I don't know when Judas became a "son of perdition" but I do think he was chosen for that purpose."

Please, Explain to me the difference in my statement above and what are the obvious conclusions of this previous post of yours?

Its very simple, some time before the Lord chose him, he had become the son of perdition, why, I don't know. Maybe he blasphemed the Holy Ghost???

God foreknows all things and He knows who will believe and who will not. I know that don't sit well with your theology, but thats how I believe it.

 

[TCGreek]

Its very simple, some time before the Lord chose him, he had become the son of perdition, why, I don't know. Maybe he blasphemed the Holy Ghost???

Was Jesus aware of this blasphemy before He chose Judas? If He did, why did He still choose Judas?

 

[Brother Bob]

Was Jesus aware of this blasphemy before He chose Judas? If He did, why did He still choose Judas?

I said it could of been blasphemy, not that it was.
Yes, Jesus did know he was the son of perdition when He chose him. Judas had not done anything to give hisself away, the Lord already knew.

Why did He choose him, that seems quite obvious but think it was Jeremiah, who spoke of it.

 

[TCGreek]

I said it could of been blasphemy, not that it was.
Yes, Jesus did know he was the son of perdition when He chose him. Judas had not done anything to give hisself away, the Lord already knew.

1. So Jesus, before He chose Judas, knew what he was but kept him nevertheless because he was the predestined son of perdition.

2. In mean this in no disrespecting manner, but BBob, you are more than you are letting on. I find your theology to be interesting.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. So Jesus, before He chose Judas, knew what he was but kept him nevertheless because he was the predestined son of perdition.

2. In mean this in no disrespecting manner, but BBob, you are more than you are letting on. I find your theology to be interesting.

what do you mean? You believe He chose a few for no reason at all, so how does that make my theology interesting?

Also, he must be betrayed to fulfill scripture, so was one of the Apostles that were truly His, going to betray Him?

 

[TCGreek]

what do you mean? You believe He chose a few for no reason at all, so how does that make my theology interesting?

1. Now, BBob, you said that Judas was chosen for the purpose of being the son of perdition, while the Calvinists say that God chose some for salvation for the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6).

2. What is the difference in what you have been saying and what the Calvinists believe?

Also, he must be betrayed to fulfill scripture, so was one of the Apostles that were truly His, going to betray Him?

3. Good question! But I thought you answered that already?

 

[Allan]

Christ chose him, yet he was the son of perdition. I don't think he just happened to slip into the 12; in fact, Matt. 10 proves otherwise.

First, we need to remember that Christ choose all 12 to be His disciples.

He taught them all the same things, empowered them all to do the same things (proclaim and cast out demons), and revealed Himself to them all through both His words and deeds. They all shared the same truths.

However, their being 'chosen' was not TO salvation but they were 'chosen' FOR a purpose. Acatully scripture states they (not one of the disciples) did not believe Christ would rise from the dead so the did not believe He was who they 'thought' He was. The messiah could not die for He was to set up His Kingdom. They did not understand all they knew until Christ rose from the dead and 'revealed' it to them. They were not yet saved in the New Covenant sense, because they did not yet understand what it all ment. IF they were all chosen (assuming chosen here means salvation) then according to scripture so all should be saved except Judas who lost it, again - IF - that were His meaning of 'chosen'.

We need to be careful of making blanket meaning for certain words in accordance with our theological understandings.

In Jesus prayer we find this:

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Those whom the Father gave Christ (the 12 - John 6) were kept, NOT saved, but from harm and that included the son of perdition, till all things were accomplished.

Seriously, think about it. If the ministry of Christ raised such a ruckus that they Jews sought to Kill Him, why did they not seek after His disciples as well. But that only after the resurrection did all eyes turn on His followers.

The term 'kept' here refers to physically watching over them whom the Father gave Christ in accordance with John 6 (His disciples), but after the assention with SPECIFIC regard to salvation as the text concludes it refers to His watching over us spiritually. What we call - eternal security. Just as those with Christ physically had a physical security from death.

 

[TCGreek]

First, we need to remember that Christ choose all 12 to be His disciples.

He taught them all the same things, empowered them all to do the same things (proclaim and cast out demons), and revealed Himself to them all through both His words and deeds. They all shared the same truths.

However, their being 'chosen' was not TO salvation but they were 'chosen' FOR a purpose. Acatully scripture states they (not one of the disciples) did not believe Christ would rise from the dead so the did not believe He was who they 'thought' He was. The messiah could not die for He was to set up His Kingdom. They did not understand all they knew until Christ rose from the dead and 'revealed' it to them. They were not yet saved in the New Covenant sense, because they did not yet understand what it all ment. IF they were all chosen (assuming chosen here means salvation) then according to scripture so all should be saved except Judas who lost it, again - IF - that were His meaning of 'chosen'.

We need to be careful of making blanket meaning for certain words in accordance with our theological understandings.

But we find in many different places, though 12 were chosen one was not, or we find a 'but' regarding the one - Judas. Even in Jesus prayer we find this:

Those whom the Father gave Christ (the 12 - John 6) were kept (NOT saved) but from harm and that included the son of perdition, till all things were accomplished.

Seriously, think about it. If the ministr of Christ raised such a ruckus that they Jews sought to Kill Him, why did they not seek after His disciples as well. But that only after the resurrection did all eyes turn on His followers.

The term 'kept' here refers to physically watching over them whom the Father gave Christ, but after the assention with SPECIFIC regard to salvation as the text concludes it refers to His watching over us spiritually.

So does "Kept" mean kept physically but not salvifically in Jude 1, 21, 24?

 

[TCGreek]

If you are correct about John 17:12, then we should understand the perishing of the son of perdition only physically, his hanging of himself? This seems to be the logical conclusion.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Now, BBob, you said that Judas was chosen for the purpose of being the son of perdition, while the Calvinists say that God chose some for salvation for the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6).

I went to bed and got back up because after you saying I could be Hyper-Calvinist, it just hit me. You think I said God chose Judas to betray the Lord and what I said was God chose Judas because he already was the son of perdition, not gonna be, and God knew Judas would betray the Lord, because of what he was.

It didn't just come to the Lord all at once at the Last Supper that Judas was the Son of perdition, He already knew it.

Please understand, God did not chose Judas to do what he did, but chose him because of what he was (son of perdition) and knew he would betray the Lord.

When Judas became a "son of perdition" I do not know, but it was before the Lord chose him because he was chosen for the purpose of betraying the Lord.

I never once said God chose Judas "to be" the son of perdition, but chose him because he already was the son of perdition.

As far as the other 11 being saved, I think they were but as Allen said, He told them to wait for the promise of the Father.

BBob,

 

[webdog]

You are equating the election of Judas with the election of Abraham?

Yes...along with the election of Pharaoh, the election of Jacob, the election of Isaac, etc.

 

[Allan]

It seems to me that if God decided to harden your heart, you wouldn't have much choice about it. If He decides to show you mercy, He does it without your permission. He does what He wills.

True, but God did not harden Pharoahs heart toward salvation Amy, and that is what you are implying the verse is meaning. He hardeded Pharoahs heart from allowing Gods chosen people to leave. Pharoah had already discarded the truths of God for his own lies.

God choosing of Judus is soveriegn in that God gave Judas to Jesus as one of His own but and while knowing Judas would not receive the truth that Christ will reveal to him, that it might be fulfilled of the Son of Perdition.

 

[Allan]

So does "Kept" mean kept physically but not salvifically in Jude 1, 21, 24?

Yep. Jude is speaking of keeping them (like 1 Peter) salvicly. But Jesus kept them for the purpose of fulfilling all things.

 

[TCGreek]

I went to bed and got back up because after you saying I could be Hyper-Calvinist, it just hit me. You think I said God chose Judas to betray the Lord and what I said was God chose Judas because he already was the son of perdition, not gonna be, and God knew Judas would betray the Lord, because of what he was.

1. I didn't mean to make you twist and turn. :laugh:

It didn't just come to the Lord all at once at the Last Supper that Judas was the Son of perdition, He already knew it.

Please understand, God did not chose Judas to do what he did, but chose him because of what he was (son of perdition) and knew he would betray the Lord.

2. So what is the difference between what Judas was and what he did? Isn't because of what he was why he did what he did?

When Judas became a "son of perdition" I do not know, but it was before the Lord chose him because he was chosen for the purpose of betraying the Lord.

3. I don't see how you can separate Judas action from what he was.

4. So, if God chose Judas to betray Christ and not all the rest of the apostles, then Why is it so difficult for you to concede that God chose some for salvation?

 

[TCGreek]

Yep. Jude is speaking of keeping them (like 1 Peter) salvicly. But Jesus kept them for the purpose of fulfilling all things.

So Judas was saved spiritually but perished physically because Jesus was praying for the safe-keeping of the apostles physically and not spiritually?

 

[Amy.G]

True, but God did not harden Pharoahs heart toward salvation Amy, and that is what you are implying the verse is meaning. He hardeded Pharoahs heart from allowing Gods chosen people to leave. Pharoah had already discarded the truths of God for his own lies.

God choosing of Judus is soveriegn in that God gave Judas to Jesus as one of His own but and while knowing Judas would not receive the truth that Christ will reveal to him, that it might be fulfilled of the Son of Perdition.

Yes, it appears that I was saying God hardened his heart toward salvation, but I meant He hardened his heart toward the Israelites.
Sorry 'bout that.