1 Cor. 1 and God's calling

[Allan]

If you are correct about John 17:12, then we should understand the perishing of the son of perdition only physically, his hanging of himself? This seems to be the logical conclusion.

No.

Christ 'kept' them all till all things be fulfilled. When Judas did that which was to be fulfilled then need to 'keep' him from death was no longer valid. He fulfilled Gods purpose for which he was given to Christ.

The 'perishing' references the fact that his physical death was synonamous with his spiritual one.

He rejected the truth but was not allowed to leave this plane of existence until he had fulfilled the purposes of God for his own life here and now.

All people whether saved or not are here for and to do the purposes of God, while in tandom God knowing who will be of faith and not, that all things result to and for His Glory.

 

[Brother Bob]

2. So what is the difference between what Judas was and what he did? Isn't because of what he was why he did what he did?

Absolutely, that is why he was chosen. But understand, I am not saying he was always a son of perdition and was not chose of God from the beginning to betray the Lord.

4. So, if God chose Judas to betray Christ and not all the rest of the apostles, then Why is it so difficult for you to concede that God chose some for salvation?

I just posted above, I believe he did. I have no problem what so ever believing that God chose some from the beginning to carry out His plan of Salvation.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

So does "Kept" mean kept physically but not salvifically in Jude 1, 21, 24?

I don't think "kept" is the word that the John 17:12 passage hinges on.
I think it's the phrase rendered here:

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If you look back to the beginning of John 17 and notice verse 6 where the phrase is first used in the chapter, it seems that Jesus has a group within the 12 that He refers to as "those you gave me".

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

The ones that the Father gave obeyed His word. Judas did not obey the word, even though he appeared to for a while.
So Jesus' words in verse 12 about those that the Father gave Him would appear to exclude Judas which is why Judas was not kept, but was lost.
He never was given to Jesus from the Father as a true son.
He was chosen because of his sonship with Satan.

 

[Allan]

So Judas was saved spiritually but perished physically because Jesus was praying for the safe-keeping of the apostles physically and not spiritually?

Sorry I misread you previous post and inverted your meaning.

YES, Jesus is speaking physically and NOT spirirtually regarding 'kept'.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen Isaiah40:28

Back to bed for me.

 

[npetreley]

Sorry I misread you previous post and inverted your meaning.

YES, Jesus is speaking physically and NOT spirirtually.

Cool! I'm continually amazed at how much we know about things scripture doesn't say anything about.

 

[webdog]

If you look back to the beginning of John 17 and notice verse 6 where the phrase is first used in the chapter, it seems that Jesus has a group within the 12 that He refers to as "those you gave me".

The son of perdition is included in that...
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[TCGreek]

No.

Christ 'kept' them all till all things be fulfilled. When Judas did that which was to be fulfilled then need to 'keep' him from death was no longer valid. He fulfilled Gods purpose for which he was given to Christ.

1. Judas had not yet betrayed Jesus.

The 'perishing' references the fact that his physical death was synonamous with his spiritual one.

2. So the physical keeping from harm is synonymous with spiritual keeping from harm. Is this really your hermeneutics, that you have to somehow spiritual and literalize when it seems convenient to you?

 

[TCGreek]

I don't think "kept" is the word that the John 17:12 passage hinges on.
I think it's the phrase rendered here:

If you look back to the beginning of John 17 and notice verse 6 where the phrase is first used in the chapter, it seems that Jesus has a group within the 12 that He refers to as "those you gave me".

The ones that the Father gave obeyed His word. Judas did not obey the word, even though he appeared to for a while.
So Jesus' words in verse 12 about those that the Father gave Him would appear to exclude Judas which is why Judas was not kept, but was lost.
He never was given to Jesus from the Father as a true son.
He was chosen because of his sonship with Satan.

Essentially, I have no problem with this reading.

 

[Brother Bob]

that the scripture might be fulfilled

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Sorry I misread you previous post and inverted your meaning.

YES, Jesus is speaking physically and NOT spirirtually.

John17:11

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one

"Protect them by the power of your name so that they may be one as we are one" is a prayer of physical protection??

 

[webdog]

Since the other 11 didn't believe in Christ until his resurrection, I'm inclined to believe that if Judas had not hung himself, he too would have believed along with the other 11.

 

[Allan]

I don't think "kept" is the word that the John 17:12 passage hinges on.
I think it's the phrase rendered here:

If you look back to the beginning of John 17 and notice verse 6 where the phrase is first used in the chapter, it seems that Jesus has a group within the 12 that He refers to as "those you gave me".

The ones that the Father gave obeyed His word. Judas did not obey the word, even though he appeared to for a while.
So Jesus' words in verse 12 about those that the Father gave Him would appear to exclude Judas which is why Judas was not kept, but was lost.
He never was given to Jesus from the Father as a true son.
He was chosen because of his sonship with Satan.

So Christ chose one or took one unto Himself who was not given Him by the Father?

 

[Allan]

John17:11

"Protect them by the power of your name so that they may be one as we are one" is a prayer of physical protection??

This is not speaking to the meaning of the word 'kept'.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

The son of perdition is included in that...
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That's why I said he "appeared to obey the word".
His sonship was revealed for what it was, not true sonship.

 

[TCGreek]

Since the other 11 didn't believe in Christ until his resurrection, I'm inclined to believe that if Judas had not hung himself, he too would have believed along with the other 11.

And there goes what was prophesied of Judas in the OT!

 

[TCGreek]

This is not speaking to the meaning of the word 'kept'.

But if your meaning of kept is maintained this is the obvious conclusion. Are you bailing out on the meaning you have assigned to kept?

 

[webdog]

And there goes what was prophesied of Judas in the OT!

What was prophesied was the foretelling of future events. Prophecy is nothing more than telling what will take place. Prophecy was fulfilled. The "hows" are what is unclear.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

This is not speaking to the meaning of the word 'kept'.

So why in the NIV is "protect" used in verse 11 for spiritual protection and then in verse 12 Jesus says, "while I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe"?

Jesus was their bodyguard?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

So Christ chose one or took one unto Himself who was not given Him by the Father?

Depends on what you mean by"took one unto Himself".
As a disciple, yes.
As a true son, no.