1 Cor. 1 and God's calling

[TCGreek]

What was prophesied was the foretelling of future events. Prophecy is nothing more than telling what will take place. Prophecy was fulfilled. The "hows" are what is unclear.

1. It was prophesied that Jesus would ride on a colt (Matt 21:5; Zec 9:9); should I go on with more specific prophecies?

2. Do you want to answer the question of How Jesus rides on a colt?

 

[webdog]

1. It was prophesied that Jesus would ride on a colt (Matt 21:5; Zec 9:9); should I go on with more specific prophecies?

2. Do you want to answer the question of How Jesus rides on a colt?

One example of prophecy. Care to tell how Judas was the son of perdition? Was he chosen for damnation, or did he willingly reject the truth?

BTW...the OT prophecy did not give the details how the colt came to be ridden by Jesus

 

[Allan]

But if your meaning of kept is maintained this is the obvious conclusion. Are you bailing out on the meaning you have assigned to kept?

No, your just not understanding me and therefore the obvious conclusion is moot.
Look again at Chapter 17 regarding what Jesus states of whom the Father gave Him:

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice what it states. I have kept them ... those thou gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but (except for) the Son of...." Did you get that. ALL that God gave Him, not one is lost except...

Judus was given to Christ by the Father along with all the other Disciples.
If 'kept' meant salvation then Christ was a failure and THAT is the logical conclusion.

However, His prayer does speak OF those who have received the Truth revealed to them as it states in verse 8

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

And yet they are all (including Judas) 'kept' by Christ.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The above which was quoted shows whom of the 12 which He kept were really one with Him.

 

[TCGreek]

One example of prophecy. Care to tell how Judas was the son of perdition? Was he chosen for damnation, or did he willingly reject the truth?

1. I'll let Dr. Luke answer that question. Now, if you can't get the answer from Luke 22, I know of no other:

21"But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.

22"For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"

2. According to Luke, God ordains the acts of human beings while still holding them 100 % accountable for their actions.

 

[TCGreek]

No, your just not understanding me and therefore the obvious conclusion is moot.
Look again at Chapter 17 regarding what Jesus states of whom the Father gave Him:

Notice what it states. I have kept them ... those thou gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but (except for) the Son of...." Did you get that. ALL that God gave Him, not one is lost except...

Judus was given to Christ by the Father along with all the other Disciples.
If 'kept' meant salvation then Christ was a failure and THAT is the logical conclusion.

However, His prayer does speak OF those who have received the Truth revealed to them as it states in verse 8


And yet they are all (including Judas) 'kept' by Christ.


The above which was quoted shows whom of the 12 which He kept were really one with Him.

In a nutshell, along with Peter, Judas will be greeting us at heaven's door.

 

[Allan]

In a nutshell, along with Peter, Judas will be greeting us at heaven's door.

Did I say that?
Show me where I insinuated that.

 

[TCGreek]

Did I say that?
Show me where I insinuated that.

1. Ok, Judas' perishing is physical with a spiritual twist that all of us have missed except you.

2. You can write a dissertation on that one, for it is a unique idea. I think that is what they look for in a dissertation.

 

[Allan]

1. I'll let Dr. Luke answer that question. Now, if you can't get the answer from Luke 22, I know of no other:

21"But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.

22"For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"

2. According to LukeGod ordains the acts of human beings while still holding them 100 % accountable for their actions, .

Uh, No.
According to Luke God determinded the act which was to transpire but NOT that God predetermind a person to do it and them be helf accountable (in the negitive/damnation sense) for doing what God made him do.

God predeterminded the act to be done by a person but not the person as though they had no choice but to obey God and damned for obedience to God.

 

[Allan]

1. Ok, Judas' perishing is physical with a spiritual twist that all of us have missed except you.

2. You can write a dissertation on that one, for it is a unique idea. I think that is what they look for in a dissertation.

Again WHEN did I say ANYTHING about spiritual.

I said Christ kept them physically to accomplish all things and that includes Judas betrayal of the Son of Man.

 

[TCGreek]

Again WHEN did I say ANYTHING about spiritual.

I said Christ kept them physically to accomplish all things and that includes Judas betrayal of the Son of Man.

Here's a quote from post 61; your words: "The 'perishing' references the fact that his physical death was synonamous with his spiritual one."

 

[TCGreek]

Uh, No.
According to Luke God determinded the act which was to transpire but NOT that God predetermind a person to do it and them be helf accountable (in the negitive/damnation sense) for doing what God made him do.

God predeterminded the act to be done by a person but not the person as though they had no choice but to obey God and damned for obedience to God.

Are you saying now that God's foreknowledge is only limited to actions and not the people behind those actions?

 

[Allan]

Are you saying now that God's foreknowledge is only limited to actions and not the people behind those actions?

Again who said that?

God foreknowledge includes all things.

 

[TCGreek]

Again who said that?

God foreknowledge includes all things.

1. Your words: "According to Luke God determinded the act which was to transpire but NOT that God predetermind a person to do it and them be helf accountable (in the negitive/damnation sense) for doing what God made him do."

2. Have you become a victim of literary deconstructionalism?

 

[Allan]

Here's a quote from post 61; your words: "The 'perishing' references the fact that his physical death was synonamous with his spiritual one."

Ok, lets try this once more because I see where you misunderstood me. My doing sorry.

YOUR reference to his perishing (regarding his hanging) was what I was speaking in conjuction to being 'kept'.

His physical death showed that Christ was no longer keeping him physically and therefore when he died (not being kept by Christ any longer) it illistrated the same as his heart which was not Christ's either.

I was meaning your term perishing was synonamous with both His physical and spiritual destruction.

 

[Allan]

1. Your words: "According to Luke God determinded the act which was to transpire but NOT that God predetermind a person to do it and them be helf accountable (in the negitive/damnation sense) for doing what God made him do."

2. Have you become a victim of literary deconstructionalism?

Then you took it the wrong way.

God predeterminded the act which will culminate in His will being fulfilled regarding Christs death..
God in His knowledge of all things knew who He would use that would do that which God desired of or by his (the man) own choice to fulfill Gods Predetermind event.
IOW - God plan in cunjuction with Gods knowledge of each mans heart knew who to use to fulfill His plan.

That isn't so hard to grasp is it?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

No, your just not understanding me and therefore the obvious conclusion is moot.
Look again at Chapter 17 regarding what Jesus states of whom the Father gave Him:

Notice what it states. I have kept them ... those thou gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but (except for) the Son of...." Did you get that. ALL that God gave Him, not one is lost except...

Judus was given to Christ by the Father along with all the other Disciples.
If 'kept' meant salvation then Christ was a failure and THAT is the logical conclusion.

However, His prayer does speak OF those who have received the Truth revealed to them as it states in verse 8


And yet they are all (including Judas) 'kept' by Christ.


The above which was quoted shows whom of the 12 which He kept were really one with Him.

This may sound right in your own mind, but I cannot fathom why Jesus would speak that way about Judas if the context is allowed to be used.
Looking way back at John 13:18, Jesus tells the disciples gathered in the upper room:

I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the Scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'

Judas then leaves by verse 30 and the disciples are mystified by Jesus' words. They have no idea that Judas is not a true follower. Jesus has never let on until now that Judas is a betrayer. And even when He plainly tells them, the other 11 still don't get it.
And for the rest of the chapters until 17:12, nothing Jesus says or prays applies to Judas.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.

That clearly is not speaking about Judas being part of the chosen ones to whom salvation and fruit bearing would be appointed.
So when we get to chapter 17, the context demands that Jesus is praying for the ones whom the Father had given Him, those who have obeyed the word and have acknowledged that Jesus came from the Father, the 11 true disciples.
Thus when he speaks about them in verse 12, he is saying to His Father that He has protected them and kept them safe from falling away, even though in a few short hours, they will abandon Him and appear to forsake Him altogether. The only one who truly has forsaken Him is the one who has been "lost".
Your insistence that Jesus is speaking about Judas being "kept" from physical harm is contrary to the whole upper room teachings and prayers.
Not that God didn't preserve Judas from hanging himself prior to his betrayal. He did, but I do not see that being meant here in John 17.

 

[Allan]

This may sound right in your own mind, but I cannot fathom why Jesus would speak that way about Judas if the context is allowed to be used.
Looking way back at John 13:18, Jesus tells the disciples gathered in the upper room:

Judas then leaves by verse 30 and the disciples are mystified by Jesus' words. They have no idea that Judas is not a true follower. Jesus has never let on until now that Judas is a betrayer. And even when He plainly tells them, the other 11 still don't get it.
And for the rest of the chapters until 17:12, nothing Jesus says or prays applies to Judas.

Ok, I NEVER said Jesus prayer applies to Judas. I said that the 'kept' Jesus speaks to simply refers to physically.
In Jesus OWN Prayer regarding those He kept, Judas is included but it is not in the sense Judas was a Child of God, only that he was kept from death.
Context EXPRESSES this in the passage I quoted, where Jesus said I have kept them ALL and none are lost...but/except Judas.
Who does the all exclude here? None.

That clearly is not speaking about Judas being part of the chosen ones to whom salvation and fruit bearing would be appointed.
So when we get to chapter 17, the context demands that Jesus is praying for the ones whom the Father had given Him, those who have obeyed the word and have acknowledged that Jesus came from the Father, the 11 true disciples.
Thus when he speaks about them in verse 12, he is saying to His Father that He has protected them and kept them safe from falling away, even though in a few short hours, they will abandon Him and appear to forsake Him altogether. The only one who truly has forsaken Him is the one who has been "lost".
Your insistence that Jesus is speaking about Judas being "kept" from physical harm is contrary to the whole upper room teachings and prayers.
Not that God didn't preserve Judas from hanging himself prior to his betrayal. He did, but I do not see that being meant here in John 17.

Who said Judas was chosen for salvation.

Obviously there is MORE than one blanket meaning for the word 'chosen':

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

All twelve were chosen but were they chosen to salvation? No.

Or here:

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Again, were they asking God to tell them between the two which to God would save? Of course not. We must come to the scriptures looking at context first, then theology, then context again, not vise versa.

Even Christ Himself is called 'Chosen'.


EDITTED IN --> you never answered my question before. Did you ever pray for Mr. Dawkins as God urged you to?

 

[Allan]

TCGreek, If I am not bringing my statement to bare properly it is because I've not had much sleep and I am pulling a double shift. So I'm on here to help me stay awake. I am trying to write what I know in a meaningful way but I apparently am not doing a good job. Maybe we can take it up again, and start a new at another time. I might be incorrect or I might be just not explaining what I know correctly. So maybe at a different time we can try again.

 

[TCGreek]

Ok, lets try this once more because I see where you misunderstood me. My doing sorry.

YOUR reference to his perishing (regarding his hanging) was what I was speaking in conjuction to being 'kept'.

His physical death showed that Christ was no longer keeping him physically and therefore when he died (not being kept by Christ any longer) it illistrated the same as his heart which was not Christ's either.

I was meaning your term perishing was synonamous with both His physical and spiritual destruction.

1. It seems best to me to take Jesus' words here as the same as those in Luke 22:31-32, with John filling in the deal about Judas.

2. So the prayer is not about physical protection, but spiritual.

 

[TCGreek]

Ok, lets try this once more because I see where you misunderstood me. My doing sorry.

YOUR reference to his perishing (regarding his hanging) was what I was speaking in conjuction to being 'kept'.

His physical death showed that Christ was no longer keeping him physically and therefore when he died (not being kept by Christ any longer) it illistrated the same as his heart which was not Christ's either.

I was meaning your term perishing was synonamous with both His physical and spiritual destruction.

BTW, What is it in this text or for that matter any other, that gives you the idea that Judas perishing is a physical one that points to his spiritual perishing?