Featured 1 Cor. 12-14

Why don't you explain this statement more and give Scripture to back it up. What do you mean by "utterance"? My infant grandchildren utter all kinds of things. They babble all day long. Is that what you mean by "utterance"?

The Book of Acts is a book of history. There were three events that took place that involved tongues that will never happen again, just like no one will ever see a burning bush that is not consumed and the voice of God speaking to them out of it. Moses experienced that but I guarantee you that you will not. It is an historical event and so were the events in Acts. Doctrine concerning tongues is found in the epistles, and it is only found on one epistle.

Our church is composed of baptized believers in Christ, not unbelieving Jews, and especially not the Jews that crucified Christ, the Jews that were prophesied of in Isaiah 28:11,12. Judgment already fell upon them as was prophesied. The prophesy was fulfilled, thus the sign (tongues) was taken away.
An example: The Hi-way Department puts a sign at the end of the road: "Detour: Bridge Out". When the bridge is fixed there is no longer any need for the sign. They remove it. After the Jews were judged, the canon completed, and the Apostles died, there was no longer any need for the sign. It was removed.

Because you are still married. After you are dead it can be removed.

Not true. If it were then the sound of a great rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire would appear every time a person spoke in tongues. All three represented that even. You cannot isolate just one.

The Day of Pentecost was a one time event and can never be replicated. That is the delusion of so many Charismatics. It is the time that believers began to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the day that they got saved. That is what it signified. Tongues had nothing to do with it.

You are right. And from the end of the first century until the beginning of the first (1905 to be specific) only pagans spoke in tongues. Hindus, Mormons, cults, those that practice Voodooism, those that are deep into the occult--they all speak in tongues. That is what you have associated yourself with. There is no history of Christians speaking in tongues during that time period. This modern-day phenomena is a relatively new thing and is not the Biblical gift of speaking in a foreign language as it was in the first century.

You don't have to be sorry that we understand the Scriptures. You need to mourn that you don't. We don't explain away the Bible; we rightly divide the word of truth as opposed to you constantly taking the Scriptures out of their context in order to justify your unbiblical practices.

 

You need to redefine the word. You are taking an archaic English word, used 400 years ago, and giving it a mystical new meaning. Here is what the verse means:

Acts 2:4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.
--"utterance" is not there. It does not have the meaning you attach to it. It is "the ability to speak," and that is all. As a baby learns to speaks he utters. I also utter a few words here and there. I have the ability to speak (utter), and every time I get in front of the pulpit the Spirit gives me power to utter with power. That is utterance.

It happened at the Church at Jerusalem. It happens at other churches. It happened in the Church at Corinth. By that time doctrine had developed as to its use and function. The Book of Acts is a historical book. It is not a book to develop doctrine out of. The Holy Spirit is still here. There are churches that are still here. The Apostles are not here. The prophets are not here. And neither is the gift of healing nor the gift of tongues. History has proven that, but you like to side with paganism rather than with God.

You are avoiding the points being raised.
Where are the unbelieving Jews for which they were a sign.
You are just repeating the same thing over and over again ignoring the Scriptures that tell us why tongues existed in the first place. You can't even answer the arguments given you.

Not the church, but the bride. The rapture has not yet taken place.
What has that got to do with it. You again are ignoring the post and points being raised. You can't refute that which is written.
The sign was removed. That is what I wrote. Why was the sign removed?
Because it was a sign to unbelieving Jews.
It was a sign to authenticate the Apostles and their message.
It was a sign of revelatory knowledge.
--The sign is no longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The unbelieving Jews are dead, and have met their judgement in 70 A.D. The canon is complete. The sign is no longer needed. It has been removed.

Check 1Cor.14:21. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jews. You don't even speak the truth. You are so deluded you don't know the truth. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to prophesy rather than to speak in tongues. He said that tongues was the least important of all the gifts. He said that to speak in your own native language had 2,000 times more benefit than to speak in tongues. That still means nothing to you!

It never says that tongues will never leave us or forsake us, just as it doesn't say that speaking from a burning bush will never leave us or forsake us. It was a form of communication for that period only, just like speaking from a burning bush was. Why do you demand one and not the other? Speaking from a burning bush was a manifestation of the Spirit also, just in a different time period. Tongues was in a different time period also--the Apostolic time period. But they are dead, and now the sign of tongues is gone and no more needed.

Ignoring history is naive and ignorant. Implying that 19 centuries of Christians were not Godly or spiritual is insulting and ungodly on your part. The truth is that for 19 centuries the only ones that spoke in tongues were pagans--cults, mormons, Hindus, etc. That is what you are associated with.

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

What was not fulfilled?
He did not come upon All Flesh. That is still to come.
He did not come yet upon all their generations. That is to the Jews.
There were no signs and wonders in the sky. That is yet to come.
Their sons and daughters did not see dreams and visions. That is yet to come.

It was only a partial fulfillment. In fact the major part of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

 

Something that is confusing, without understanding, causes chaos, and is continually rebuked by Paul is not refreshing. It is never termed as "refreshing" in the NT. You are reading into the Scripture something that is not there. It is a habit with you.

To manifest simply means "to reveal".
I reveal the truth of Scripture every Sunday when I preach.
It is done in a more vivid way when I give an object lesson to the children.
A simple truth is revealed to them using a means that they will not easily forget. For example, Jesus used a candle, and likened it to a light that should not go out. What should not go out? The Christ-like Christian testimony that people see. Or do we have "Sunday-going only" Christians. Their lights only shine on Sundays.

All Scripture is profitable. But all Scripture does not correct does it? All Scripture does not have all the uses that Paul listed. Some have one function and some another. History does not teach doctrine. There may be instances in an historical passage where doctrine is taught, but for the major parts it is history. What does Paul say about the history of the Israelites, for example:

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
--He doesn't say this is our doctrine, but rather our examples...

And to emphasize this truth he says:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--They are examples.
--They are written for our admonition
--They do not teach us doctrine.
We do have doctrinal books. The Book of Romans, for example, is one of the most complete treatises written on soteriology that one can find.

No, I gave you answers that you could not respond to. You had nothing to refute it, so you went and said something completely off topic and irrelevant. That is rude, and unnecessary. If you don't know how to answer or what the answer is then be humble enough to say it.

Example. What does Genesis 1:1 say?
Your answer: Mormonism actually has three books.
--If you don't know, just say so.

Go back and read Heb.2:3,4. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (collectively) were "poured out" as a sign for the apostles--to authenticate them and their message. No Apostles today; no gifts today. They were not poured out for his bride. Nowhere does the Bible say that. You are just making things up as you go along.

You change meanings of words. You probably don't know what "manifestation" even means, though I have already told you. And there is not a single person living today that speaks in tongues--having the Biblical gift of tongues. Can you point one out to me? Do you speak in another known language, not known to yourself but known to others, and can be accurately interpreted by others to others so that all will understand what language you are speaking in? IOW, do you have that gift that will take away the necessity of missionaries having to go to language schools before they go to the foreign mission field. You can't do that can you? Why? Because that gift has ceased, and what you have is not that gift, but a forgery.

What unbelieving Jews are in your church? How many do you have?
First Paul said it was to the Jewish nation in 1Cor.14:21. You are familiar with that verse. Then we have an example of that in history. (Acts 2).

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
--Note the doctrine comes from the epistle, and the example from the book of Acts. In the example Peter was preaching right to the very ones who had crucified Christ. He starts out by saying "Ye men of Israel."
The speaking in another language was a sign to these unbelieving Jews of the first century, even the very ones that crucified our Lord. It wasn't for all Jews.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--Once that rejection came, the sign ceased. John wrote that ca. 90 A.D. By that time tongues had ceased.

As noted above, tongues do not refresh. Where do you get that idea. They were a sign of judgment. How is that refreshing? They caused confusion, chaos, and were soundly rebuked by the Apostle Paul! How is that refreshing. Do you get refreshed by continually being rebuked? They were anything but refreshing. They were the opposite of refreshing. They were a sign of judgment to come.

And so were "the mighty rushing wind" and "the cloven tongues of fire." Why don't you seek to have those manifestations also. The fact that you don't demonstrates that what you have is a forgery; fraudulent; not the real thing.

Prove it! Pentecost was a one time event never to be repeated again. The fact is that you chose to isolate tongues from those three manifestations. God didn't choose tongues; you did.

He never took the Holy Spirit away; the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. They are not longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The first century Jews are dead. Why are you practicing things that belong to dead people??

That is not in Scripture.

So what is your daily diet? Draino, HCL, Do you pick up deadly snakes, and drink deadly poison, and are assured that they won't harm you?

That is not what you do! Rather you pit Scripture against Scripture, thereby making the Bible contradict itself.

Your post, as you have done many times is a non sequitor.
First you asked: What part of Joel's prophecy is fulfilled?
I answered:

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

Then why didn't all receive it. There were more than 100,000 present on the Day of Pentecost. Only 3,000 were saved. If the Holy Spirit CAME on ALL FLESH, then ALL FLESH would have been saved!
But that is not what happened.

He died for all that all might have the opportunity to be saved; But ALL FLESH will not be saved.

Because I read and study the Bible. Very few of them did. Look at Heb.1:1,2. It was not God's method of giving revelation. And it will not be until He comes again. Even then it will only be a sign.

If that were true all the Muslims and Hindus would be saved, but they aren't. All flesh means exactly what it says--all flesh--every human being. But the Spirit is not on all flesh. In fact most of the world today is directly opposed to the Holy Spirit of God.

 

Disputed ending for marks gospel though, should not be used as a primary theology text...

What was purpose of the tongues?

To fulfill OT prophecy, to show that the Holy Spirit gad some in His new way, to establish that gentiles were to be saved by yeshua, and to be use dto communicate to local church when scripture fully not completed...

Why would they be given to us today, as all the needs are now been fully met?

 

Be a good man and full of faith and the the Holy Spirit, and tell me what happens.

 

What knowledge either has or will cease? And when?

At some day in the future will we all be ignoramuses?

 

Who would be closest to your theology in charasmatic circles?

Are you akin to a classic pentacostalists, Jimmy Swaagert, or more in tune with say kenneth Copeland/hagin etc?

 

No apostles=no gifts?



The Word of Knowledge
The Word of Wisdom
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Faith
The Gifts of Healings
The Working of Miracles
The Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
The Interpretation of Tongues

Do you have faith? It is a gift
Do you have wisdom? It is a gift
Does the Spirit ever give you a word of knowledge? It is a gift

Most people in the Church will tell you they have or believe in Knowledge, Wisdom, Faith, and Discerning spirits, not realizing they are part of the 9 gifts.

When asked if the 9 gifts are for today, most in the church will say some are, usually the 4 that do not need any evidence to proclaim them.

So if the gifts have stopped, then you have no faith, or knowledge, or wisdom.

 

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
--Paul quotes from Isaiah 28 here. "This People" is the nation of Israel. They will not here. Because they will not here judgment will come upon them, and it did in 70 A.D. What was the sign? "Men of other tongues (strange languages) and other lips (nations) will I speak to Israel, and yet for all that they will not listen to me." As John said in John 1:11, "He came to his own and his own received him not." The gift of tongues was a sign to the unbelieving Jew of that day. They did not believe. Judgment came.

It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit was manifest does it? Give me chapter and verse.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

These signs appeared on the Day of Pentecost. This is not "the so-called" manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that. These were signs given to the disciples by Christ that the Comforter, which he had promised to send, had come. The Holy Spirit is invisible. No one can see him. These are signs.

Read verse 6. It was an example for them to learn not to lust. The Israelites died in the wilderness because of their lust. The lesson to learn is not to lust. It was a lesson learned from history. We can learn a lot from history, even secular history. But it is not teaching doctrine, per se.

Did I suggest you do that? No. I am suggesting to you that every book has a purpose. If you want to know what it is teaching you must know why it was written. But if you don't want to know those kind of facts then you can remain in ignorance of what the book is teaching. The latter seems to be your preference.

I think this thread is about 25 pages now. Each page has approximately 10 posts. I am not going to search through all these posts to find something somewhere that you supposedly said. It is a debate forum. If you can't answer in debating then perhaps you shouldn't be here.

If you don't want to type it out again at least give the URL. You are not giving an answer now, and you did not give an answer in the previous post. That is good enough for me. You are not debating.

So you say. The proof is in the pudding. If I can't read it in front of me I am not going to search for it.
I said the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to authenticate the apostles and their message. You say I am wrong and give Acts 2:39 for a defense??

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
--the promise is the promise of salvation and has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. WOW! Talking about taking Scripture out of context. But this is normal for you.

No, it is one thing that you have never answered.
The tongues of today is not Biblical, and there are no examples of it going on today. If it were we would see examples of it, but we don't.
Of your own admission you don't know what you are saying. You don't understand, and don't have an interpreter. That in itself is not biblical.
The fact that no missionary is ever given miraculously the ability to speak the foreign language of the nation he is called to is evidence that the gift has ceased. You don't explain this because you can't. The gift of tongues has ceased, and this is good evidence that it has.

 

Faith is not a supernatural gift. In fact even the unsaved have faith. It is innate. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is confidence, trust. When one puts that confidence in the gospel message, in Christ he obtains salvation.

Words of knowledge ceased when the canon of Scripture ceased. God is not giving revelation today.
All of the gifts mentioned were in some inexplicable way supernatural, some of which are hard to explain. They were "gifts." They were supernaturally given. They were given for that time period. That doesn't mean that we don't have wise men, that we don't have those that can't discern, etc. We do. But at that time there were those that had a special supernatural gift.

 

You are not answering this question very clearly so I will ask it again:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

What does it mean when it says "knowledge shall vanish away."
What knowledge, and when will knowledge vanish away?
Please be specific.

 

So if someone repeatedly exhibits a supernatural gift, but you say they have ceased, then the gift that keeps manifesting must be a counterfeit right?

 

The unbelievers of 1Cor.14:21 are specifically called "this people" or the Jews of that time, the first century, who would meet with certain judgment if they did not take heed to the sign of the gift of tongues. They did not take heed, and they met with judgment in 70 A.D. You do not have any of those Jews around today. The prophecy was fulfilled. The sign is no longer needed.

You conveniently split my post up. It says it clearly in 1Cor.14:21. Then I used the Scripture from Acts 2 and John 1:11 to back up what 1Cor. 14:21 teaches. It teaches that tongues is a sign to "this people" the nation of Israel.
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

As quoted above, it cannot refer to anyone else but the nation of Israel. They were the ones who would not listen to God's message.

Pentecost will never be repeated again. Neither will the event at the house of Cornelius, or at Ephesus in Acts 19. They are historical events. "The manifestation" was not tongues. It was at least 9 gifts, but as plain'n simple said, quite a few more than 9. All the gifts of the Spirit were "manifestations" as you put it. And tongues was least important of them all.

Actually you mean 1Cor.12.
And the are gifts of the Holy Spirit, not manifestations. Where does it say they were manifestations?

This is heresy. The Holy Spirit is God. He is not a gift.
Read Romans 6:23 and Eph.2:8,9. The gift of God is eternal life. The gift of God is salvation. The Holy Spirit is not a gift. He is God, the third person of the triune Godhead. He is not manifested in signs and wonders. They are given by God. The Holy Spirit is not some kind of surreal ecstatic force. He is a real person. Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit and was killed because of it. Tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God.

You don't have to lie about the Bible. Or, you could just plead ignorance instead. But since I have shown this verse to you, it is a lie.

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
--The Scripture is there; you don't need to lie and say it isn't.
--And no, you haven't addressed it. As per usual, you avoid difficult questions.

Then you better start digging.

You are not even able to explain the Scripture "women keep silence in the church" without contradicting yourself."

After explaining to you what parts of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled, I then explained to you this:

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

That was in response to a nonsensical answer you gave, just like the one above. Yes, I never denied people are still calling on the name of the Lord. No one here has. Do you have a hard time following a discussion?

And that is precisely why the Spirit did NOT fall upon ALL FLESH. The Spirit came as promised, did what he promised to do. Christ had already provided the way of salvation through the cross. But the Holy Spirit has not fallen on all flesh.

That is not what the verse says.

The Bible does not teach that the Spirit came on all flesh. You teach that; not the Bible.

He is available to those who call on him, and that is all.
He is not on all the flesh--people of the world. Why can't you simply admit that. There is coming a day when that will happen. But it is not now.