1 Cor. 12-14

[DHK]

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

Why don't you explain this statement more and give Scripture to back it up. What do you mean by "utterance"? My infant grandchildren utter all kinds of things. They babble all day long. Is that what you mean by "utterance"?

If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, why would he manifest different through tongues in the book of Acts?

The Book of Acts is a book of history. There were three events that took place that involved tongues that will never happen again, just like no one will ever see a burning bush that is not consumed and the voice of God speaking to them out of it. Moses experienced that but I guarantee you that you will not. It is an historical event and so were the events in Acts. Doctrine concerning tongues is found in the epistles, and it is only found on one epistle.

Tongues is for a sign, what sign is it for? ...and if you say it was JUST for the Jews, then I ask "Don't we still have Jews today?"

Our church is composed of baptized believers in Christ, not unbelieving Jews, and especially not the Jews that crucified Christ, the Jews that were prophesied of in Isaiah 28:11,12. Judgment already fell upon them as was prophesied. The prophesy was fulfilled, thus the sign (tongues) was taken away.
An example: The Hi-way Department puts a sign at the end of the road: "Detour: Bridge Out". When the bridge is fixed there is no longer any need for the sign. They remove it. After the Jews were judged, the canon completed, and the Apostles died, there was no longer any need for the sign. It was removed.

My wedding ring is a sign to the world that I am married. When do I need to throw my wedding ring away?

Because you are still married. After you are dead it can be removed.

Tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.

Not true. If it were then the sound of a great rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire would appear every time a person spoke in tongues. All three represented that even. You cannot isolate just one.

HE was poured out and here today! He was given to the church, so an unbeliever can not manifest the Holy Spirit.

The Day of Pentecost was a one time event and can never be replicated. That is the delusion of so many Charismatics. It is the time that believers began to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the day that they got saved. That is what it signified. Tongues had nothing to do with it.

If it was a language that I know, then an unbeliever can do that!

You are right. And from the end of the first century until the beginning of the first (1905 to be specific) only pagans spoke in tongues. Hindus, Mormons, cults, those that practice Voodooism, those that are deep into the occult--they all speak in tongues. That is what you have associated yourself with. There is no history of Christians speaking in tongues during that time period. This modern-day phenomena is a relatively new thing and is not the Biblical gift of speaking in a foreign language as it was in the first century.

Sorry, you only understand the way you do... so that you can explain away the manifestations!

You don't have to be sorry that we understand the Scriptures. You need to mourn that you don't. We don't explain away the Bible; we rightly divide the word of truth as opposed to you constantly taking the Scriptures out of their context in order to justify your unbiblical practices.

 

[awaken]

Why don't you explain this statement more and give Scripture to back it up. What do you mean by "utterance"? My infant grandchildren utter all kinds of things. They babble all day long. Is that what you mean by "utterance"?

I gave scripture for this over and over...Acts 2:4

The Book of Acts is a book of history. There were three events that took place that involved tongues that will never happen again, just like no one will ever see a burning bush that is not consumed and the voice of God speaking to them out of it. Moses experienced that but I guarantee you that you will not. It is an historical event and so were the events in Acts. Doctrine concerning tongues is found in the epistles, and it is only found on one epistle.

Sorry, 1 Cor. mentions all the manifestations. Acts is a book of the Holy Spirit being poured out. As I have said many times it was a one time pouring out from heaven. It was for the church and the church is still here!

Our church is composed of baptized believers in Christ, not unbelieving Jews, and especially not the Jews that crucified Christ, the Jews that were prophesied of in Isaiah 28:11,12. Judgment already fell upon them as was prophesied. The prophesy was fulfilled, thus the sign (tongues) was taken away.
An example: The Hi-way Department puts a sign at the end of the road: "Detour: Bridge Out". When the bridge is fixed there is no longer any need for the sign. They remove it. After the Jews were judged, the canon completed, and the Apostles died, there was no longer any need for the sign. It was removed.

THe church is still alive and here and manifesting the Holy Spirit. THe church is still being built!

Because you are still married. After you are dead it can be removed.

THe church is still here waiting on her groom. The Holy Spirit was a down payment to His bride. So you are saying He took that away?

Not true. If it were then the sound of a great rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire would appear every time a person spoke in tongues. All three represented that even. You cannot isolate just one.

Tongues was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through the disciples. The wind and fire was when it was poured out never to happen again. 1 Cor. mentions tongues as the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

The Day of Pentecost was a one time event and can never be replicated. That is the delusion of so many Charismatics. It is the time that believers began to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the day that they got saved. That is what it signified. Tongues had nothing to do with it.

Tongues was a a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS...I HAVE NEVER SAID PENTECOST WOULD BE REPEATED! But once it happened (pouring out of the Holy Spirit). It is here to stay until Jesus returns! Nowhere in scripture do you read that he was taken up. Doesn't it say He will never leave us or forsake us?

You are right. And from the end of the first century until the beginning of the first (1905 to be specific) only pagans spoke in tongues. Hindus, Mormons, cults, those that practice Voodooism, those that are deep into the occult--they all speak in tongues. That is what you have associated yourself with. There is no history of Christians speaking in tongues during that time period. This modern-day phenomena is a relatively new thing and is not the Biblical gift of speaking in a foreign language as it was in the first century.

No one can manifest the Holy Spirit but believers! Saying that there are fakes out there does not disprove the real!!

You don't have to be sorry that we understand the Scriptures. You need to mourn that you don't. We don't explain away the Bible; we rightly divide the word of truth as opposed to you constantly taking the Scriptures out of their context in order to justify your unbiblical practices.

No, you ignore scriptures!
YOu never answered my question as to what part of Joel came to pass that day.

 

[DHK]

I gave scripture for this over and over...Acts 2:4

You need to redefine the word. You are taking an archaic English word, used 400 years ago, and giving it a mystical new meaning. Here is what the verse means:

Acts 2:4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.
--"utterance" is not there. It does not have the meaning you attach to it. It is "the ability to speak," and that is all. As a baby learns to speaks he utters. I also utter a few words here and there. I have the ability to speak (utter), and every time I get in front of the pulpit the Spirit gives me power to utter with power. That is utterance.

Sorry, 1 Cor. mentions all the manifestations. Acts is a book of the Holy Spirit being poured out. As I have said many times it was a one time pouring out from heaven. It was for the church and the church is still here!

It happened at the Church at Jerusalem. It happens at other churches. It happened in the Church at Corinth. By that time doctrine had developed as to its use and function. The Book of Acts is a historical book. It is not a book to develop doctrine out of. The Holy Spirit is still here. There are churches that are still here. The Apostles are not here. The prophets are not here. And neither is the gift of healing nor the gift of tongues. History has proven that, but you like to side with paganism rather than with God.

THe church is still alive and here and manifesting the Holy Spirit. THe church is still being built!

You are avoiding the points being raised.
Where are the unbelieving Jews for which they were a sign.
You are just repeating the same thing over and over again ignoring the Scriptures that tell us why tongues existed in the first place. You can't even answer the arguments given you.

THe church is still here waiting on her groom. The Holy Spirit was a down payment to His bride. So you are saying He took that away?

Not the church, but the bride. The rapture has not yet taken place.
What has that got to do with it. You again are ignoring the post and points being raised. You can't refute that which is written.
The sign was removed. That is what I wrote. Why was the sign removed?
Because it was a sign to unbelieving Jews.
It was a sign to authenticate the Apostles and their message.
It was a sign of revelatory knowledge.
--The sign is no longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The unbelieving Jews are dead, and have met their judgement in 70 A.D. The canon is complete. The sign is no longer needed. It has been removed.

Tongues was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through the disciples. The wind and fire was when it was poured out never to happen again. 1 Cor. mentions tongues as the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Check 1Cor.14:21. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jews. You don't even speak the truth. You are so deluded you don't know the truth. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to prophesy rather than to speak in tongues. He said that tongues was the least important of all the gifts. He said that to speak in your own native language had 2,000 times more benefit than to speak in tongues. That still means nothing to you!

Tongues was a a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS...I HAVE NEVER SAID PENTECOST WOULD BE REPEATED! But once it happened (pouring out of the Holy Spirit). It is here to stay until Jesus returns! Nowhere in scripture do you read that he was taken up. Doesn't it say He will never leave us or forsake us?

It never says that tongues will never leave us or forsake us, just as it doesn't say that speaking from a burning bush will never leave us or forsake us. It was a form of communication for that period only, just like speaking from a burning bush was. Why do you demand one and not the other? Speaking from a burning bush was a manifestation of the Spirit also, just in a different time period. Tongues was in a different time period also--the Apostolic time period. But they are dead, and now the sign of tongues is gone and no more needed.

No one can manifest the Holy Spirit but believers! Saying that there are fakes out there does not disprove the real!!

Ignoring history is naive and ignorant. Implying that 19 centuries of Christians were not Godly or spiritual is insulting and ungodly on your part. The truth is that for 19 centuries the only ones that spoke in tongues were pagans--cults, mormons, Hindus, etc. That is what you are associated with.

No, you ignore scriptures!
YOu never answered my question as to what part of Joel came to pass that day.

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

What was not fulfilled?
He did not come upon All Flesh. That is still to come.
He did not come yet upon all their generations. That is to the Jews.
There were no signs and wonders in the sky. That is yet to come.
Their sons and daughters did not see dreams and visions. That is yet to come.

It was only a partial fulfillment. In fact the major part of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[awaken]

You need to redefine the word. You are taking an archaic English word, used 400 years ago, and giving it a mystical new meaning. Here is what the verse means:

Acts 2:4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.
--"utterance" is not there. It does not have the meaning you attach to it. It is "the ability to speak," and that is all. As a baby learns to speaks he utters. I also utter a few words here and there. I have the ability to speak (utter), and every time I get in front of the pulpit the Spirit gives me power to utter with power. That is utterance.

And what meaning did I attach to it? I just gave you a scripture. Are you taking utterance out of the Bible?
What do you think a manifestation is? The tongues in Acts were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was just poured out upon them.

It happened at the Church at Jerusalem. It happens at other churches. It happened in the Church at Corinth. By that time doctrine had developed as to its use and function. The Book of Acts is a historical book. It is not a book to develop doctrine out of. The Holy Spirit is still here. There are churches that are still here. The Apostles are not here. The prophets are not here. And neither is the gift of healing nor the gift of tongues. History has proven that, but you like to side with paganism rather than with God.

You keep saying you can not get doctrine out of it? What are you going to do with this scripture? Take it out like you all the rest of them that do not agree with your theory? What does ALL mean here to you?
1 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

You are avoiding the points being raised.
Where are the unbelieving Jews for which they were a sign.
You are just repeating the same thing over and over again ignoring the Scriptures that tell us why tongues existed in the first place. You can't even answer the arguments given you.

No, not avoiding just tired of having to reapeat myself. I answered this a long time ago...go back and look it up in the thread!

Not the church, but the bride. The rapture has not yet taken place.
What has that got to do with it. You again are ignoring the post and points being raised. You can't refute that which is written.

Not ignoring! Again just tired of repeating myself! You are correct Jesus has not come back to get his bride! The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out for the bride! A gift that the word says He does not take back!!

The sign was removed. That is what I wrote. Why was the sign removed?

Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

Because it was a sign to unbelieving Jews.
It was a sign to authenticate the Apostles and their message.
It was a sign of revelatory knowledge.
--The sign is no longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The unbelieving Jews are dead, and have met their judgement in 70 A.D. The canon is complete. The sign is no longer needed. It has been removed.

Really, so your saying that all the Jews are believers now? IT was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out as Jesus said it would be! A sign to the Jew was not the ONLY reason for tongues!

Check 1Cor.14:21. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jews. You don't even speak the truth. You are so deluded you don't know the truth. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to prophesy rather than to speak in tongues. He said that tongues was the least important of all the gifts. He said that to speak in your own native language had 2,000 times more benefit than to speak in tongues. That still means nothing to you!

Do you always mix truth with your theory? Some of what you post is true! But what you insinuate is not! Look a little closer at that scripture:

.."With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people" If you look that scripture up in Is.28 it will shed to light some interesting things about tongues.
What is the rest? What is the refreshing? This is the refreshing, the rest...tongues!

It never says that tongues will never leave us or forsake us, just as it doesn't say that speaking from a burning bush will never leave us or forsake us. It was a form of communication for that period only, just like speaking from a burning bush was. Why do you demand one and not the other? Speaking from a burning bush was a manifestation of the Spirit also, just in a different time period. Tongues was in a different time period also--the Apostolic time period. But they are dead, and now the sign of tongues is gone and no more needed.

THe Holy Spirit is the gift that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost...tongues was the manifestation that day! There are several manifestataions! He chose tongues! Now until you can show me where He took the Holy Spirit away! ALL the manifestations will be here with the church until Jesus comes back! Then we will no longer need them! Plus you will have to take Mark 16 out of the Bible too! Signs will follow those that believed the apostles teachings/doctrine!

Ignoring history is naive and ignorant. Implying that 19 centuries of Christians were not Godly or spiritual is insulting and ungodly on your part. The truth is that for 19 centuries the only ones that spoke in tongues were pagans--cults, mormons, Hindus, etc. That is what you are associated with.

My doctrines do not come from history books or science books! Call it what you wish! I let scripture interpret scripture!

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

So if they were fulfilled back then...the Holy Spirit does not call us today? Please think before you post! I am tired of responding to things like this!

What was not fulfilled?
He did not come upon All Flesh. That is still to come.
He did not come yet upon all their generations. That is to the Jews.
There were no signs and wonders in the sky. That is yet to come.
Their sons and daughters did not see dreams and visions. That is yet to come.

It was only a partial fulfillment. In fact the major part of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

Wrong! THe Holy Spirit was poured out for all to receive!
Just like Jesus sacrifice was done once for all! It was done once! But we today can still receive salvation because of the one sacrifice!
How do you know they did not see dreams and visions?

The only thing that was not fulfilled was the things that will be done on the earth below and the heavens above. All the things of the Spirit was poured out that day!

 

[DHK]

And what meaning did I attach to it? I just gave you a scripture. Are you taking utterance out of the Bible?
What do you think a manifestation is? The tongues in Acts were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was just poured out upon them.

Something that is confusing, without understanding, causes chaos, and is continually rebuked by Paul is not refreshing. It is never termed as "refreshing" in the NT. You are reading into the Scripture something that is not there. It is a habit with you.

To manifest simply means "to reveal".
I reveal the truth of Scripture every Sunday when I preach.
It is done in a more vivid way when I give an object lesson to the children.
A simple truth is revealed to them using a means that they will not easily forget. For example, Jesus used a candle, and likened it to a light that should not go out. What should not go out? The Christ-like Christian testimony that people see. Or do we have "Sunday-going only" Christians. Their lights only shine on Sundays.

You keep saying you can not get doctrine out of it? What are you going to do with this scripture? Take it out like you all the rest of them that do not agree with your theory? What does ALL mean here to you?
1 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

All Scripture is profitable. But all Scripture does not correct does it? All Scripture does not have all the uses that Paul listed. Some have one function and some another. History does not teach doctrine. There may be instances in an historical passage where doctrine is taught, but for the major parts it is history. What does Paul say about the history of the Israelites, for example:

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
--He doesn't say this is our doctrine, but rather our examples...

And to emphasize this truth he says:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--They are examples.
--They are written for our admonition
--They do not teach us doctrine.
We do have doctrinal books. The Book of Romans, for example, is one of the most complete treatises written on soteriology that one can find.

No, not avoiding just tired of having to reapeat myself. I answered this a long time ago...go back and look it up in the thread!

No, I gave you answers that you could not respond to. You had nothing to refute it, so you went and said something completely off topic and irrelevant. That is rude, and unnecessary. If you don't know how to answer or what the answer is then be humble enough to say it.

Example. What does Genesis 1:1 say?
Your answer: Mormonism actually has three books.
--If you don't know, just say so.

Not ignoring! Again just tired of repeating myself! You are correct Jesus has not come back to get his bride! The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out for the bride! A gift that the word says He does not take back!!

Go back and read Heb.2:3,4. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (collectively) were "poured out" as a sign for the apostles--to authenticate them and their message. No Apostles today; no gifts today. They were not poured out for his bride. Nowhere does the Bible say that. You are just making things up as you go along.

Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

You change meanings of words. You probably don't know what "manifestation" even means, though I have already told you. And there is not a single person living today that speaks in tongues--having the Biblical gift of tongues. Can you point one out to me? Do you speak in another known language, not known to yourself but known to others, and can be accurately interpreted by others to others so that all will understand what language you are speaking in? IOW, do you have that gift that will take away the necessity of missionaries having to go to language schools before they go to the foreign mission field. You can't do that can you? Why? Because that gift has ceased, and what you have is not that gift, but a forgery.

Really, so your saying that all the Jews are believers now? IT was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out as Jesus said it would be! A sign to the Jew was not the ONLY reason for tongues!

What unbelieving Jews are in your church? How many do you have?
First Paul said it was to the Jewish nation in 1Cor.14:21. You are familiar with that verse. Then we have an example of that in history. (Acts 2).

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
--Note the doctrine comes from the epistle, and the example from the book of Acts. In the example Peter was preaching right to the very ones who had crucified Christ. He starts out by saying "Ye men of Israel."
The speaking in another language was a sign to these unbelieving Jews of the first century, even the very ones that crucified our Lord. It wasn't for all Jews.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--Once that rejection came, the sign ceased. John wrote that ca. 90 A.D. By that time tongues had ceased.

Do you always mix truth with your theory? Some of what you post is true! But what you insinuate is not! Look a little closer at that scripture:

.."With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people" If you look that scripture up in Is.28 it will shed to light some interesting things about tongues.
What is the rest? What is the refreshing? This is the refreshing, the rest...tongues!

As noted above, tongues do not refresh. Where do you get that idea. They were a sign of judgment. How is that refreshing? They caused confusion, chaos, and were soundly rebuked by the Apostle Paul! How is that refreshing. Do you get refreshed by continually being rebuked? They were anything but refreshing. They were the opposite of refreshing. They were a sign of judgment to come.

THe Holy Spirit is the gift that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost...tongues was the manifestation that day!

And so were "the mighty rushing wind" and "the cloven tongues of fire." Why don't you seek to have those manifestations also. The fact that you don't demonstrates that what you have is a forgery; fraudulent; not the real thing.

There are several manifestataions! He chose tongues!

Prove it! Pentecost was a one time event never to be repeated again. The fact is that you chose to isolate tongues from those three manifestations. God didn't choose tongues; you did.

Now until you can show me where He took the Holy Spirit away!

He never took the Holy Spirit away; the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. They are not longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The first century Jews are dead. Why are you practicing things that belong to dead people??

ALL the manifestations will be here with the church until Jesus comes back! Then we will no longer need them!

That is not in Scripture.

Plus you will have to take Mark 16 out of the Bible too! Signs will follow those that believed the apostles teachings/doctrine!

So what is your daily diet? Draino, HCL, Do you pick up deadly snakes, and drink deadly poison, and are assured that they won't harm you?

My doctrines do not come from history books or science books! Call it what you wish! I let scripture interpret scripture!

That is not what you do! Rather you pit Scripture against Scripture, thereby making the Bible contradict itself.

So if they were fulfilled back then...the Holy Spirit does not call us today? Please think before you post! I am tired of responding to things like this!

Your post, as you have done many times is a non sequitor.
First you asked: What part of Joel's prophecy is fulfilled?
I answered:

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

Wrong! THe Holy Spirit was poured out for all to receive!

Then why didn't all receive it. There were more than 100,000 present on the Day of Pentecost. Only 3,000 were saved. If the Holy Spirit CAME on ALL FLESH, then ALL FLESH would have been saved!
But that is not what happened.

Just like Jesus sacrifice was done once for all! It was done once! But we today can still receive salvation because of the one sacrifice!

He died for all that all might have the opportunity to be saved; But ALL FLESH will not be saved.

How do you know they did not see dreams and visions?

Because I read and study the Bible. Very few of them did. Look at Heb.1:1,2. It was not God's method of giving revelation. And it will not be until He comes again. Even then it will only be a sign.

The only thing that was not fulfilled was the things that will be done on the earth below and the heavens above. All the things of the Spirit was poured out that day!

If that were true all the Muslims and Hindus would be saved, but they aren't. All flesh means exactly what it says--all flesh--every human being. But the Spirit is not on all flesh. In fact most of the world today is directly opposed to the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Question to all those that believe that the manifestations have ceased with the last apostle or was only for the apostles...

Mark 16:17-18 ..."and these signs shall follow them that believe" If we believe the preaching of the apostles it says these signs will follow us (the ones that believed), right?

Question for those that insist that the completion of the Bible ended the gifts...

Can you give me a date in your history books that it was cut off? I mean was someone prophesying and in the middle of it..it just ended. Was someone speaking in tongues and all of a sudden they stopped? Curious to what your history books proclaim about this?

Disputed ending for marks gospel though, should not be used as a primary theology text...

What was purpose of the tongues?

To fulfill OT prophecy, to show that the Holy Spirit gad some in His new way, to establish that gentiles were to be saved by yeshua, and to be use dto communicate to local church when scripture fully not completed...

Why would they be given to us today, as all the needs are now been fully met?

 

[David Michael Harris]

Seems like everyone is against Baptist charismatic members and not just their beliefs. I know different Baptist churches hold different beliefs on certain things, but most southern baptist do not believe that the manifestation are gone... just on what they are.

What do most of the baptist here believe about the Holy Spirits manifestations today?

Please try not to belittle me for what I believe but yet defend what you believe. Not just opinions..scriptures please!

I ask that this be done in love and a mutual agreement that in the end of this thread no hard feelings/offense taken. I believe that is what God would want!

Be a good man and full of faith and the the Holy Spirit, and tell me what happens.

 

[awaken]

Disputed ending for marks gospel though, should not be used as a primary theology text...

What was purpose of the tongues?

To fulfill OT prophecy, to show that the Holy Spirit gad some in His new way, to establish that gentiles were to be saved by yeshua, and to be use dto communicate to local church when scripture fully not completed...

Why would they be given to us today, as all the needs are now been fully met?

So you are taking scripture out too? What scripture may I ask can be used? Since every one that I have shown has been explained away?

Tongues did not cease when the Bible was complete, and no one can prove that in scriptures.

You say the Bible is perfect, then say that some of it is not...Like Mark 16.

I do think the Word of God is perfect, but our understanding is not. Therefore, until that which is perfect has come, we still "see through a glass darkly" in this life (1 Cor. 13:12). Hence, "that which is in part" (1 Cor. 13:10) has not ceased.

It does not say a "WORD" of knowledge will cease it says knowledge will cease.

It says that when that which is perfect has come, we shall see face to face and not through a glass darkly. That is not in this Church age!

When we get to heaven there will not be anymore mysteries or secrets. (1 Cor. 14:2)

Tongues is not just a sign for the Jew...it is for unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:22). Last time I looked around we still have unbelievers on earth!

JEsus is the baptizer! The Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and still here today manifesting in the church!

 

[DHK]

It does not say a "WORD" of knowledge will cease it says knowledge will cease.

What knowledge either has or will cease? And when?

At some day in the future will we all be ignoramuses?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you are taking scripture out too? What scripture may I ask can be used? Since every one that I have shown has been explained away?

Tongues did not cease when the Bible was complete, and no one can prove that in scriptures.

You say the Bible is perfect, then say that some of it is not...Like Mark 16.

I do think the Word of God is perfect, but our understanding is not. Therefore, until that which is perfect has come, we still "see through a glass darkly" in this life (1 Cor. 13:12). Hence, "that which is in part" (1 Cor. 13:10) has not ceased.

It does not say a "WORD" of knowledge will cease it says knowledge will cease.

It says that when that which is perfect has come, we shall see face to face and not through a glass darkly. That is not in this Church age!

When we get to heaven there will not be anymore mysteries or secrets. (1 Cor. 14:2)

Tongues is not just a sign for the Jew...it is for unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:22). Last time I looked around we still have unbelievers on earth!

JEsus is the baptizer! The Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and still here today manifesting in the church!

Who would be closest to your theology in charasmatic circles?

Are you akin to a classic pentacostalists, Jimmy Swaagert, or more in tune with say kenneth Copeland/hagin etc?

 

[awaken]

Something that is confusing, without understanding, causes chaos, and is continually rebuked by Paul is not refreshing. It is never termed as "refreshing" in the NT. You are reading into the Scripture something that is not there. It is a habit with you.

I will agree that the Cor. were not using tongues properly in church and it was chaos! That was why Paul rebuked them and taught them how to do all things orderly. BUt he did not teach they ceased and he did not forbid them! You need to read Is. 28 and tell me what "THIS" is referring to? He calls it refreshing!

To manifest simply means "to reveal".
I reveal the truth of Scripture every Sunday when I preach.
It is done in a more vivid way when I give an object lesson to the children.
A simple truth is revealed to them using a means that they will not easily forget. For example, Jesus used a candle, and likened it to a light that should not go out. What should not go out? The Christ-like Christian testimony that people see. Or do we have "Sunday-going only" Christians. Their lights only shine on Sundays.

What? The Greek word for "manifestation" is phanerosis A making visible or observable. If it is the Holy Spirit (not seen) being manifested in the world it has to be detectable by the 5 senses. Something we see, hear, smell, taste and touch. The Holy Spirit manifested Himself through tongues on the day of Pentecost! That is not the only way He manifest, but on that day it was tongues!

All Scripture is profitable. But all Scripture does not correct does it? All Scripture does not have all the uses that Paul listed. Some have one function and some another. History does not teach doctrine. There may be instances in an historical passage where doctrine is taught, but for the major parts it is history. What does Paul say about the history of the Israelites, for example:

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
--He doesn't say this is our doctrine, but rather our examples...

An example for what? To learn by!

And to emphasize this truth he says:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--They are examples.
--They are written for our admonition
--They do not teach us doctrine.
We do have doctrinal books. The Book of Romans, for example, is one of the most complete treatises written on soteriology that one can find. [/quote] Acts is part of the scriptures and so is Mark...you can throw them out and not use them, but I am not!

No, I gave you answers that you could not respond to. You had nothing to refute it, so you went and said something completely off topic and irrelevant. That is rude, and unnecessary. If you don't know how to answer or what the answer is then be humble enough to say it.

Wrong! I gave you answers and I am not repeating them! Look back in the thread!

Example. What does Genesis 1:1 say?
Your answer: Mormonism actually has three books.
--If you don't know, just say so.

I gave answers...they did not fit your theory so you threw them off! Go back and show me where I did not answer.

Go back and read Heb.2:3,4. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (collectively) were "poured out" as a sign for the apostles--to authenticate them and their message. No Apostles today; no gifts today. They were not poured out for his bride. Nowhere does the Bible say that. You are just making things up as you go along.

Wrong again...and I have shown you over and over! It is for all that believe and are called! Acts 2:39

You change meanings of words. You probably don't know what "manifestation" even means, though I have already told you. And there is not a single person living today that speaks in tongues--having the Biblical gift of tongues. Can you point one out to me? Do you speak in another known language, not known to yourself but known to others, and can be accurately interpreted by others to others so that all will understand what language you are speaking in? IOW, do you have that gift that will take away the necessity of missionaries having to go to language schools before they go to the foreign mission field. You can't do that can you? Why? Because that gift has ceased, and what you have is not that gift, but a forgery.

Another example of you not reading my post! I have explained this over and over too!

!

 

[awaken]

What unbelieving Jews are in your church? How many do you have?
First Paul said it was to the Jewish nation in 1Cor.14:21. You are familiar with that verse. Then we have an example of that in history. (Acts 2).

It says a sign to the unbeliever! We still have unbelievers today! But AGAIN that is in the Church. There are several benefits to tongues in a believers life.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
--Note the doctrine comes from the epistle, and the example from the book of Acts. In the example Peter was preaching right to the very ones who had crucified Christ. He starts out by saying "Ye men of Israel."
The speaking in another language was a sign to these unbelieving Jews of the first century, even the very ones that crucified our Lord. It wasn't for all Jews.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--Once that rejection came, the sign ceased. John wrote that ca. 90 A.D. By that time tongues had ceased.

THere you go again with your theories...where does it say once they rejected him the sign would cease! Your grasping at straws now!

As noted above, tongues do not refresh. Where do you get that idea. They were a sign of judgment. How is that refreshing? They caused confusion, chaos, and were soundly rebuked by the Apostle Paul! How is that refreshing. Do you get refreshed by continually being rebuked? They were anything but refreshing. They were the opposite of refreshing. They were a sign of judgment to come.

Read it carefully and tell me what THIS is referring to?

And so were "the mighty rushing wind" and "the cloven tongues of fire." Why don't you seek to have those manifestations also. The fact that you don't demonstrates that what you have is a forgery; fraudulent; not the real thing.

I have addressed this! Go back and read it! No where in scriptures does it say that will be again! That was describing when Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. THE MANIFESTATION WAS THE TONGUES...AND THAT IS REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE.

Prove it! Pentecost was a one time event never to be repeated again. The fact is that you chose to isolate tongues from those three manifestations. God didn't choose tongues; you did.

You want me to prove there are more manifestations of the Holy Spirit? Read Acts 12 there are nine listed there!

He never took the Holy Spirit away; the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. They are not longer needed. The Apostles are dead. The first century Jews are dead. Why are you practicing things that belong to dead people??

Where you are confused is that the HOLY SPIRIT is the gift! Poured out on the Day of Pentecost! What you witness in tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discernment etc is the manifestation of the gift!

That is not in Scripture.

1 Cor. 13

So what is your daily diet? Draino, HCL, Do you pick up deadly snakes, and drink deadly poison, and are assured that they won't harm you?

Not addressing this...go back and read the thread. No where in scriptures does it say to pick up snakes or drink poison! I have already addressed this!
I love (not) how you avoid what I post onto something else to take the attention off of the truth...It says those that believe the teaching of the apostles! I believe the teachings...I do speak in tongues, I do lay hands on the sick and they have recovered! YOu have to dig deep in the word to understand the serpents and poison...do a word search for starters!

That is not what you do! Rather you pit Scripture against Scripture, thereby making the Bible contradict itself.

Scriptures do not contradict...show me one that I posted that contradicted! They might contradict your theory, but not each other!

Your post, as you have done many times is a non sequitor.
First you asked: What part of Joel's prophecy is fulfilled?
I answered:

The coming of the Holy Spirit. He did come.
People did call upon the name of the Lord.
Salvation came to more than just the Jews.
Those things were fulfilled.

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

lol...You said it already happened like it will not happen again..People calling on the name of the Lord still happens today!

Then why didn't all receive it. There were more than 100,000 present on the Day of Pentecost. Only 3,000 were saved. If the Holy Spirit CAME on ALL FLESH, then ALL FLESH would have been saved!
But that is not what happened.

Jesus died on the cross for all! Why don't everyone receive Him? UNBELIEF! It was poured out for all to receive..He left no one out! But not all received! Read Acts 2 some mocked what was going on!

He died for all that all might have the opportunity to be saved; But ALL FLESH will not be saved.

True and just because the Holy Spirit is available to all flesh...does not mean all will believe and receive.

Because I read and study the Bible. Very few of them did. Look at Heb.1:1,2. It was not God's method of giving revelation. And it will not be until He comes again. Even then it will only be a sign.

THe Bible said it and I believe it! When the Holy Spirit was poured out it happened just as He said!

If that were true all the Muslims and Hindus would be saved, but they aren't. All flesh means exactly what it says--all flesh--every human being. But the Spirit is not on all flesh. In fact most of the world today is directly opposed to the Holy Spirit of God.

He is available to all! THat is a very sad statement...opposing the Holy Spirit! He is God on the earth today!

 

[awaken]

What knowledge either has or will cease? And when?

At some day in the future will we all be ignoramuses?

Read Cor. 12-13. In chapter 12 it says "word of knowledge" In chapter 13 it says "knowledge"...
NO! Some day we will know as we are known! We will be see him face to face! We will not be ignorant! We will not look through a glass dim!

 

[awaken]

Who would be closest to your theology in charasmatic circles?

Are you akin to a classic pentacostalists, Jimmy Swaagert, or more in tune with say kenneth Copeland/hagin etc?

Don't know much about those you posted. I am Baptist, raised Baptist all my life! I just believe the Holy Spirit is for us today! I believe He still manifest as He said he will...

 

[plain_n_simple]

No apostles=no gifts?



The Word of Knowledge
The Word of Wisdom
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Faith
The Gifts of Healings
The Working of Miracles
The Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
The Interpretation of Tongues

Do you have faith? It is a gift
Do you have wisdom? It is a gift
Does the Spirit ever give you a word of knowledge? It is a gift

Most people in the Church will tell you they have or believe in Knowledge, Wisdom, Faith, and Discerning spirits, not realizing they are part of the 9 gifts.

When asked if the 9 gifts are for today, most in the church will say some are, usually the 4 that do not need any evidence to proclaim them.

So if the gifts have stopped, then you have no faith, or knowledge, or wisdom.

 

[DHK]

I will agree that the Cor. were not using tongues properly in church and it was chaos! That was why Paul rebuked them and taught them how to do all things orderly. BUt he did not teach they ceased and he did not forbid them! You need to read Is. 28 and tell me what "THIS" is referring to? He calls it refreshing!

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
--Paul quotes from Isaiah 28 here. "This People" is the nation of Israel. They will not here. Because they will not here judgment will come upon them, and it did in 70 A.D. What was the sign? "Men of other tongues (strange languages) and other lips (nations) will I speak to Israel, and yet for all that they will not listen to me." As John said in John 1:11, "He came to his own and his own received him not." The gift of tongues was a sign to the unbelieving Jew of that day. They did not believe. Judgment came.

What? The Greek word for "manifestation" is phanerosis A making visible or observable. If it is the Holy Spirit (not seen) being manifested in the world it has to be detectable by the 5 senses. Something we see, hear, smell, taste and touch. The Holy Spirit manifested Himself through tongues on the day of Pentecost! That is not the only way He manifest, but on that day it was tongues!

It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit was manifest does it? Give me chapter and verse.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

These signs appeared on the Day of Pentecost. This is not "the so-called" manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that. These were signs given to the disciples by Christ that the Comforter, which he had promised to send, had come. The Holy Spirit is invisible. No one can see him. These are signs.

An example for what? To learn by!

Read verse 6. It was an example for them to learn not to lust. The Israelites died in the wilderness because of their lust. The lesson to learn is not to lust. It was a lesson learned from history. We can learn a lot from history, even secular history. But it is not teaching doctrine, per se.

And to emphasize this truth he says:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--They are examples.
--They are written for our admonition
--They do not teach us doctrine.
We do have doctrinal books. The Book of Romans, for example, is one of the most complete treatises written on soteriology that one can find.

Acts is part of the scriptures and so is Mark...you can throw them out and not use them, but I am not!

Did I suggest you do that? No. I am suggesting to you that every book has a purpose. If you want to know what it is teaching you must know why it was written. But if you don't want to know those kind of facts then you can remain in ignorance of what the book is teaching. The latter seems to be your preference.

Wrong! I gave you answers and I am not repeating them! Look back in the thread!

I think this thread is about 25 pages now. Each page has approximately 10 posts. I am not going to search through all these posts to find something somewhere that you supposedly said. It is a debate forum. If you can't answer in debating then perhaps you shouldn't be here.

I gave answers...they did not fit your theory so you threw them off! Go back and show me where I did not answer.

If you don't want to type it out again at least give the URL. You are not giving an answer now, and you did not give an answer in the previous post. That is good enough for me. You are not debating.

Wrong again...and I have shown you over and over! It is for all that believe and are called! Acts 2:39

So you say. The proof is in the pudding. If I can't read it in front of me I am not going to search for it.
I said the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to authenticate the apostles and their message. You say I am wrong and give Acts 2:39 for a defense??

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
--the promise is the promise of salvation and has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. WOW! Talking about taking Scripture out of context. But this is normal for you.

Another example of you not reading my post! I have explained this over and over too!

No, it is one thing that you have never answered.
The tongues of today is not Biblical, and there are no examples of it going on today. If it were we would see examples of it, but we don't.
Of your own admission you don't know what you are saying. You don't understand, and don't have an interpreter. That in itself is not biblical.
The fact that no missionary is ever given miraculously the ability to speak the foreign language of the nation he is called to is evidence that the gift has ceased. You don't explain this because you can't. The gift of tongues has ceased, and this is good evidence that it has.

 

[DHK]

No apostles=no gifts?



The Word of Knowledge
The Word of Wisdom
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Faith
The Gifts of Healings
The Working of Miracles
The Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
The Interpretation of Tongues

Do you have faith? It is a gift
Do you have wisdom? It is a gift
Does the Spirit ever give you a word of knowledge? It is a gift

Most people in the Church will tell you they have or believe in Knowledge, Wisdom, Faith, and Discerning spirits, not realizing they are part of the 9 gifts.

When asked if the 9 gifts are for today, most in the church will say some are, usually the 4 that do not need any evidence to proclaim them.

So if the gifts have stopped, then you have no faith, or knowledge, or wisdom.

Faith is not a supernatural gift. In fact even the unsaved have faith. It is innate. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is confidence, trust. When one puts that confidence in the gospel message, in Christ he obtains salvation.

Words of knowledge ceased when the canon of Scripture ceased. God is not giving revelation today.
All of the gifts mentioned were in some inexplicable way supernatural, some of which are hard to explain. They were "gifts." They were supernaturally given. They were given for that time period. That doesn't mean that we don't have wise men, that we don't have those that can't discern, etc. We do. But at that time there were those that had a special supernatural gift.

 

[DHK]

Read Cor. 12-13. In chapter 12 it says "word of knowledge" In chapter 13 it says "knowledge"...
NO! Some day we will know as we are known! We will be see him face to face! We will not be ignorant! We will not look through a glass dim!

You are not answering this question very clearly so I will ask it again:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

What does it mean when it says "knowledge shall vanish away."
What knowledge, and when will knowledge vanish away?
Please be specific.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Faith is not a supernatural gift. In fact even the unsaved have faith. It is innate. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is confidence, trust. When one puts that confidence in the gospel message, in Christ he obtains salvation.

Words of knowledge ceased when the canon of Scripture ceased. God is not giving revelation today.
All of the gifts mentioned were in some inexplicable way supernatural, some of which are hard to explain. They were "gifts." They were supernaturally given. They were given for that time period. That doesn't mean that we don't have wise men, that we don't have those that can't discern, etc. We do. But at that time there were those that had a special supernatural gift.

So if someone repeatedly exhibits a supernatural gift, but you say they have ceased, then the gift that keeps manifesting must be a counterfeit right?

 

[DHK]

It says a sign to the unbeliever! We still have unbelievers today! But AGAIN that is in the Church. There are several benefits to tongues in a believers life.

The unbelievers of 1Cor.14:21 are specifically called "this people" or the Jews of that time, the first century, who would meet with certain judgment if they did not take heed to the sign of the gift of tongues. They did not take heed, and they met with judgment in 70 A.D. You do not have any of those Jews around today. The prophecy was fulfilled. The sign is no longer needed.

THere you go again with your theories...where does it say once they rejected him the sign would cease! Your grasping at straws now!

You conveniently split my post up. It says it clearly in 1Cor.14:21. Then I used the Scripture from Acts 2 and John 1:11 to back up what 1Cor. 14:21 teaches. It teaches that tongues is a sign to "this people" the nation of Israel.
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Read it carefully and tell me what THIS is referring to?

As quoted above, it cannot refer to anyone else but the nation of Israel. They were the ones who would not listen to God's message.

I have addressed this! Go back and read it! No where in scriptures does it say that will be again! That was describing when Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. THE MANIFESTATION WAS THE TONGUES...AND THAT IS REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE.

Pentecost will never be repeated again. Neither will the event at the house of Cornelius, or at Ephesus in Acts 19. They are historical events. "The manifestation" was not tongues. It was at least 9 gifts, but as plain'n simple said, quite a few more than 9. All the gifts of the Spirit were "manifestations" as you put it. And tongues was least important of them all.

You want me to prove there are more manifestations of the Holy Spirit? Read Acts 12 there are nine listed there!

Actually you mean 1Cor.12.
And the are gifts of the Holy Spirit, not manifestations. Where does it say they were manifestations?

Where you are confused is that the HOLY SPIRIT is the gift! Poured out on the Day of Pentecost! What you witness in tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discernment etc is the manifestation of the gift!

This is heresy. The Holy Spirit is God. He is not a gift.
Read Romans 6:23 and Eph.2:8,9. The gift of God is eternal life. The gift of God is salvation. The Holy Spirit is not a gift. He is God, the third person of the triune Godhead. He is not manifested in signs and wonders. They are given by God. The Holy Spirit is not some kind of surreal ecstatic force. He is a real person. Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit and was killed because of it. Tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God.

Not addressing this...go back and read the thread. No where in scriptures does it say to pick up snakes or drink poison! I have already addressed this!

You don't have to lie about the Bible. Or, you could just plead ignorance instead. But since I have shown this verse to you, it is a lie.

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
--The Scripture is there; you don't need to lie and say it isn't.
--And no, you haven't addressed it. As per usual, you avoid difficult questions.

I love (not) how you avoid what I post onto something else to take the attention off of the truth...It says those that believe the teaching of the apostles! I believe the teachings...I do speak in tongues, I do lay hands on the sick and they have recovered! YOu have to dig deep in the word to understand the serpents and poison...do a word search for starters!

Then you better start digging.

Scriptures do not contradict...show me one that I posted that contradicted! They might contradict your theory, but not each other!

You are not even able to explain the Scripture "women keep silence in the church" without contradicting yourself."

lol...You said it already happened like it will not happen again..People calling on the name of the Lord still happens today!

After explaining to you what parts of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled, I then explained to you this:

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

That was in response to a nonsensical answer you gave, just like the one above. Yes, I never denied people are still calling on the name of the Lord. No one here has. Do you have a hard time following a discussion?

Jesus died on the cross for all! Why don't everyone receive Him? UNBELIEF! It was poured out for all to receive..He left no one out! But not all received! Read Acts 2 some mocked what was going on!

And that is precisely why the Spirit did NOT fall upon ALL FLESH. The Spirit came as promised, did what he promised to do. Christ had already provided the way of salvation through the cross. But the Holy Spirit has not fallen on all flesh.

True and just because the Holy Spirit is available to all flesh...does not mean all will believe and receive.

That is not what the verse says.

THe Bible said it and I believe it! When the Holy Spirit was poured out it happened just as He said!

The Bible does not teach that the Spirit came on all flesh. You teach that; not the Bible.

He is available to all! THat is a very sad statement...opposing the Holy Spirit! He is God on the earth today!

He is available to those who call on him, and that is all.
He is not on all the flesh--people of the world. Why can't you simply admit that. There is coming a day when that will happen. But it is not now.