1 Cor. 12-14

[awaken]

Prophecy is fairly self-explanatory. It was not always fore-telling but sometimes forth-telling just like a preacher does. Think of the work of John the Baptist. He was a prophet.

You do understand that these gifts are supernatural? In other words an unsaved person can not manifest these.

You are confusing the gift of prophecy with the prophetic office. Paul said the prophecy speaks of edification, exhortation, and comfort. So there is no revelation. The office of a prophet, however we often find that revelation or tortelling does come forth, even through the vehicle of prophecy.

There is a difference in the OT and Nt prophecy. OT prophecy was foretelling, but in the NT the gift of prophecy shifts strongly to forth telling.

Prophecy is more than preaching. To preach means to "to proclaim" "to announce" "to cry or tell." THe purpose of prophecy and preaching is different in scriptures. People are saved through preaching (1 Cor. 1:21) not prophecy.

THere is a lot to this gift....and we are all to desire it! Not all are called to preach!

 

[awaken]

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The gifts of the Holy Spirit, collectively, were given to the Apostles as a sign that they were apostles. They performed miracles like Christ did, though to a lesser extent, but to a far greater extent than any of the believers in the church at Corinth or any of the believers in any other church.

What other believer, for example, could follow in the Apostle Peter's footsteps:

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
--The signs and wonders (including tongues) were given specifically to the Apostles to authenticate both them and their message.

Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

There are many frauds in this world today, but there is no one alive today that can do what Peter did here.
The true Biblical gifts of miracles, healings, and tongues have ceased. They are gifts, supernatural gifts which cannot and have not been replicated in this day and generation.

You tacitly admit that for you don't even understand what you say. It could be of the devil and you wouldn't know it.

Love how you keep throwing that last statement up there!

THe apostles were not the only ones that manifested the Holy Spirit! How do you explain your theory up against that! YOU CAN'T!!

 

[plain_n_simple]

When a Christian commands sickness to leave in His name, and it does, He is manifesting the Fathers will on earth through that Christian. Word with power! You can call it a gift, and you can call it a sign, this is the hope of His glory! We are commanded to do the works that He did praise God!

 

[awaken]

You are totally wrong and don't understand the Scriptures. They were not talking to God. Paul demanded an interpreter. Why? Because the gift of tongues was likened to prophecy, likened to the ministry of John the Baptist. That is not prayer at all. It is preaching. It is for the benefit of others. It is telling them that they have sinned and they need to get right with God. It is preaching forth the word of God but in another language. That is all that speaking in tongues (another language) is. It is not prayer.

Oh, but I do! You ignore the scriptures that show them speaking to God.

Yet! You post this...

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--There is not one word of praying here. That is your imagination. You are twisting the Scriptures. The one who is speaking in another language does not speak to men because men cannot understand him. He speaks to God for God can understand other languages. But as for today's modern-day tongue phenomena, God can't even understand that! It isn't a language of any sort. It is unintelligible. It is not Biblical. You admit that you don't understand it, and can't find out the language you speak in.

You admitted that it was speaking to God here! Interesting that now you are saying something different!

Can you explain speaking to God? When I speak to God it is called PRAYER!

 

[awaken]

You can deny the Word of God all you like. But you cannot explain away these verses. In fact you cannot explain them at all can you?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

They seem fairly clear to me.
Sit down and shut up!

...and you leave out ...SPEAK TO GOD! Be quiet in church UNLESS there is an interpreter!

 

[awaken]

Tongues with interpretation was very much like that gift of prophecy and edified the church in the same way. Without the interpretation it was useless.

It was only useless to the church because there was not edification without interpretation.

Knowledge wasn't common knowledge but revelatory knowledge given by God to some of the wiser individuals in the church. These were three supernatural gifts that would only last for a short period of time and then pass away--when that which is complete would come--the Word of God. And it was complete just before the end of the first century. History tells us that tongues were finished before that time as well. History and the Bible are in harmony at this point.

THe bold is your added theory..you do not find that in scripture!
The second half you have yet to prove in scripture...because we have not seen Him face to face...and we do not know as we are known! That is when it will cease and ONLY then!

 

[awaken]

No, I am saying that you are accusing 19 centuries of Godly Christians as being unspiritual. That is really shameful. It is sad when you can't seem to differentiate between the gift of tongues and the operation of the Holy Spirit. You are so confused.

No, I am not confused! But you seem to be. Do you enjoy adding to someones post what they do not say? I have not said anyone is unspiritual!

The gift of tongues is a MANIFESTATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! How do you seperate the gift (HOLY SPIRIT) from His manifestations (tongues being one of them).

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
It wasn't very important to him was it?
He spoke in tongues more than them all because he established over 100 churches in different nations that spoke different languages.

No where in scriptures does it say the purpose of tongues is to establish churches! You keep adding to scriptures your opionion trying to explain away the manifestations.

Corinth was in Greece. Greek was the universal language of the day. They were the least city in the world to need the gift of tongues.
I had said:

11. Read 1Cor.12:28. All the gifts are listed in order of importance and tongues are listed last, as the least important of all the gifts. It was not one of the more important gifts.

Whether is was the most important or the least ...it was still a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

Why do you and the other Charismatics place the most importance on the gift that Paul placed the least importance. You have your priorities in the wrong place.
You not only seek to speak them, you do speak them. Not only do you speak them, you advocate others to speak them, and that openly on this forum.

I did not place importance on tongues! If you will go back and read this thread it was you and others that keep bringing tongues up! I am just defending the Word! I opened up the thread to discuss the THREE chapters..I tried several times to get off the subject of tongues. So tell me now..Who is hung up on tongues? ..not me!

At the church, in Corinth, during the first century, when there are unbelieving Jews present, when the canon of Scripture is not yet completed, when you are absolutely sure you have an interpreter for the language you are speaking (and it is a known language), as long as it is not a woman speaking in tongues, etc.
I really don't think you can adhere to all that. In fact we both know it is impossible. Therefore it is sin.

Nowhere does it say that wemon can not speak tongues in church. They just have to have an interpretation just like a man.

I said:
14. Nowhere is the gift of tongues directly connected with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. These are two separate events and doctrines.

Your answer makes no sense in light of the above statement.
I haven't ignored a thing. I have noted how you have misused Scripture, misunderstood it, and abused it.
Pentecost is over. He never promised you that he would give you "utterance" to speak in tongues. See how you misuse Scripture.

YOu deny Acts 2:39! "..As many as the Lord our God shall call." You have noted wrongly!

I am in unbelief about many things.
I don't believe that God is going to speak to me through a burning bush.
I don't believe that I will raise an axe-head from the bottom of a river.
I don't believe that I will part the waters of the Red Sea.
I don't believe that I will walk on water like Peter did.

I am in unbelief about many things, and that is not a bad thing.
That unbelief is firmly anchored in the Word of God

Really, unbelief is anchored in the Word? I thought FAITH was anchored in the Word? I was not called to do the above list! But I am promised the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

The Word of Faith movement which you seem to believe in says that you must put faith in your faith. You keep saying to have faith.
I do.
I have faith in Christ, and faith in His word.
Christ reveals himself through the Word of God, as he promised.

Please quit accusing me of being in a movement that I am not in! My faith is in Jesus Christ! If we are to continue discussing in this thread...I would appreciate it if you will stop the personal attacks! Stick to the scriptures!

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I do not deny this scripture! But tell me what part does the Holy Spirit play since the Day of Pentecost? He is God on the earth now! Jesus is on the right hand of the Father!

You are seeking a mystical religion based in your experiences and not rooted in the Word of God, but rather grounded in your own experiences. It is esoteric metaphysical and existential. There is a way that seems right unto a man but the end thereof is death.

I am so glad I listen to the Word instead of man's theories! Because I do get to experience what the WORD says I can!

I will address the experience thing with you one last time...and then I will ignore you comments about this.

First off, there can be no valid Christian doctrine without experience. Scripture was not dictated to a scholar sitting in an office. Scripture was the inerrant, Holy Spirit-inspired witness of men to the mighty acts of God!
Even Paul had an experience by being knocked down by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus talked about a balanced life, a need to operate in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

The Bible encourages personal encounters with God. Knowing Christ is an experience! The goal is to know Christ! Paul writes: "That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His suffering, being conformed to His death"

 

[awaken]

Question to all those that believe that the manifestations have ceased with the last apostle or was only for the apostles...

Mark 16:17-18 ..."and these signs shall follow them that believe" If we believe the preaching of the apostles it says these signs will follow us (the ones that believed), right?

Question for those that insist that the completion of the Bible ended the gifts...

Can you give me a date in your history books that it was cut off? I mean was someone prophesying and in the middle of it..it just ended. Was someone speaking in tongues and all of a sudden they stopped? Curious to what your history books proclaim about this?

 

[DHK]

...and you leave out ...SPEAK TO GOD! Be quiet in church UNLESS there is an interpreter!

I didn't leave out anything.
What part of the verse don't you understand:

it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[DHK]

It was only useless to the church because there was not edification without interpretation.

Therefore, Paul said, don't speak in other languages. Common sense prevails.

THe bold is your added theory..you do not find that in scripture!

So you believe that the word of knowledge was given to the fools and not to the wise. That is an interesting theory. How do you arrive at it? Read 1Cor. chapter 3. He rebukes them because they were still babes in Christ and could not eat strong meat. He further rebukes them because they were acting childish in their desire for this showy gift and not being mature. Therefore Paul says, "I show you a better gift." He tells them plainly that tongues is the least of all the gifts and that he would rather speak five words with understanding (his own language), then 10,000 works in another language that cannot be understood. Do the math. "Hi, my name is Paul." Five words of understanding. Those five words are more important than ten thousand words in tongues. How much more important--2,000 times more important.

The second half you have yet to prove in scripture...because we have not seen Him face to face...and we do not know as we are known! That is when it will cease and ONLY then!

Your interpretation is all your own and is simply your opinion. Chapter 13:8-13 is speaking of the completed word of God. Seeing "face to face" is speaking of completed Word of God reflecting back our image as the Word of God is used as a mirror reflecting back our true image. The same symbolic imagery is used in James chapter one. Paul does not deviate from the topic of revelation. With your interpretation your are introducing another topic right in the midst of the passage that doesn't make sense. The topic is spiritual gifts, specifically revelatory gifts. You are changing the topic where it is not needed.

 

[DHK]

You admitted that it was speaking to God here! Interesting that now you are saying something different!

Can you explain speaking to God? When I speak to God it is called PRAYER!

And Paul rebuked them for doing so. He told them to shut up; keep silence.
You cannot tell a rebuke if it stood on its end and slapped you in the face, can you? You don't build doctrine on a rebuke.

 

[Don]

And that same exact gift was talking to God each time!

Your assumption of them understanding what they were saying contradicts 1 Cor. 14!

Absolutely not.
1) See DHK's post #219.

2) Paul wasn't correcting the apostles from Acts 2. He was correcting the church at Corinth for their use of tongues. Why would they need correction? Because they weren't doing it right. So obviously the way the gift of tongues were done in Acts 2 is different from the way it was being done in 1 Cor 14. You make an error here by trying to say the two were the same.

3) I made no assumption that the disciples understood what they were saying in Acts 2. I said that scripture is silent on whether they understood or didn't understand. Therefore, for me to say that they understood what they were saying is adding to scripture; just as for you to say that they didn't understand what they were saying is adding to scripture. The one thing we do know for sure is that the hearers heard them each in their own language, and told everyone that they heard them speaking in their own language the wonderful works of God.

 

[awaken]

And Paul rebuked them for doing so. He told them to shut up; keep silence.
You cannot tell a rebuke if it stood on its end and slapped you in the face, can you? You don't build doctrine on a rebuke.

Your feathers seem a little ruffled! I am not building a doctrine on rebuke! He told them to keep silent and TALK TO GOD! WHat part of "talk to God" do you not understand?

 

[awaken]

Absolutely not.
1) See DHK's post #219.

2) Paul wasn't correcting the apostles from Acts 2. He was correcting the church at Corinth for their use of tongues. Why would they need correction? Because they weren't doing it right. So obviously the way the gift of tongues were done in Acts 2 is different from the way it was being done in 1 Cor 14. You make an error here by trying to say the two were the same.

3) I made no assumption that the disciples understood what they were saying in Acts 2. I said that scripture is silent on whether they understood or didn't understand. Therefore, for me to say that they understood what they were saying is adding to scripture; just as for you to say that they didn't understand what they were saying is adding to scripture. The one thing we do know for sure is that the hearers heard them each in their own language, and told everyone that they heard them speaking in their own language the wonderful works of God.

But how was he correcting them? He was not forbidding! Speaking in tongues is the same throughout scripture. It is a language spoken by a believer that he does not understand. It is an utterance given by the HOly Spirit. It is speaking to God!

 

[awaken]

I didn't leave out anything.
What part of the verse don't you understand:

it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

You are not interpreting that scripture right! It has nothing to do with tongues they are speaking of prophecy! You need to understand why in that setting they were to keep silent! Study it out!

 

[awaken]

Therefore, Paul said, don't speak in other languages. Common sense prevails.

To believe as you do contradicts other scriptures!

So you believe that the word of knowledge was given to the fools and not to the wise. That is an interesting theory. How do you arrive at it? Read 1Cor. chapter 3. He rebukes them because they were still babes in Christ and could not eat strong meat. He further rebukes them because they were acting childish in their desire for this showy gift and not being mature. Therefore Paul says, "I show you a better gift." He tells them plainly that tongues is the least of all the gifts and that he would rather speak five words with understanding (his own language), then 10,000 works in another language that cannot be understood. Do the math. "Hi, my name is Paul." Five words of understanding. Those five words are more important than ten thousand words in tongues. How much more important--2,000 times more important.

Your repetition is getting boring and still does not prove what you put in bold! It adds to the word!

Your interpretation is all your own and is simply your opinion. Chapter 13:8-13 is speaking of the completed word of God. Seeing "face to face" is speaking of completed Word of God reflecting back our image as the Word of God is used as a mirror reflecting back our true image. The same symbolic imagery is used in James chapter one. Paul does not deviate from the topic of revelation. With your interpretation your are introducing another topic right in the midst of the passage that doesn't make sense. The topic is spiritual gifts, specifically revelatory gifts. You are changing the topic where it is not needed.

Wrong again! You are stretching it trying to say it is the complete written word. No where in those chapters does he mention the complete word. You are also wrong about face to face...(1 John 3:2) tells us when face to face will be!

 

[DHK]

You are not interpreting that scripture right! It has nothing to do with tongues they are speaking of prophecy! You need to understand why in that setting they were to keep silent! Study it out!

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

What part of "let your women keep silence in the churches" do you not understand?
What part of "they are not permitted to speak" do you not understand.
What part of "It is a shame for women to speak in the church" do you not understand?

It is not a difficult verse to figure out when the same command is reiterated three different times.

 

[awaken]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

What part of "let your women keep silence in the churches" do you not understand?
What part of "they are not permitted to speak" do you not understand.
What part of "It is a shame for women to speak in the church" do you not understand?

It is not a difficult verse to figure out when the same command is reiterated three different times.

So you are saying a woman can not speak in church? Does your wife speak in church?

 

[Don]

But how was he correcting them? He was not forbidding!

v7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
v9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
v19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding

THAT is how he was correcting them. How can anyone not read those words and say, "you know what? I need to be really, really, *really* careful if I or someone else says they have the gift of tongues."

Speaking in tongues is the same throughout scripture. It is a language spoken by a believer that he does not understand. It is an utterance given by the HOly Spirit. It is speaking to God!

In Acts, please show scripture that says the speakers did not understand what they were saying.

Note that in 1 Cor 14:6, Paul says "IF I come unto you speaking with tongues"; and in v14 "IF I pray in an unknown tongue." Just like in 1 Cor 13, there's a reason to pay attention to every jot and every tittle. Because look at what Paul says in v15: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

Chapter 14 may wrap up with "forbid not"; but the context of chapter 14 is "edification of others." You can't edify others, or even yourself, if you have no idea what's being said.

Remember, in 1 Cor 12, Paul was telling them that not all have the gift of tongues; and if I read 1 Cor 12 correctly, I wouldn't want everyone to have the gift of tongues. So if everyone in your church is saying that they pray in tongues, whether when they're alone or elsewhere, then there's something wrong.

And with that, I withdraw from this conversation. It's gone on too long.

 

[awaken]

v7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
v9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
v19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding

THAT is how he was correcting them. How can anyone not read those words and say, "you know what? I need to be really, really, *really* careful if I or someone else says they have the gift of tongues."


In Acts, please show scripture that says the speakers did not understand what they were saying.

Note that in 1 Cor 14:6, Paul says "IF I come unto you speaking with tongues"; and in v14 "IF I pray in an unknown tongue." Just like in 1 Cor 13, there's a reason to pay attention to every jot and every tittle. Because look at what Paul says in v15: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

Chapter 14 may wrap up with "forbid not"; but the context of chapter 14 is "edification of others." You can't edify others, or even yourself, if you have no idea what's being said.

Remember, in 1 Cor 12, Paul was telling them that not all have the gift of tongues; and if I read 1 Cor 12 correctly, I wouldn't want everyone to have the gift of tongues. So if everyone in your church is saying that they pray in tongues, whether when they're alone or elsewhere, then there's something wrong.

And with that, I withdraw from this conversation. It's gone on too long.

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.
If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, why would he manifest different through tongues in the book of Acts?
Tongues is for a sign, what sign is it for? ...and if you say it was JUST for the Jews, then I ask "Don't we still have Jews today?"
My wedding ring is a sign to the world that I am married. When do I need to throw my wedding ring away?
Tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
HE was poured out and here today! He was given to the church, so an unbeliever can not manifest the Holy Spirit.
If it was a language that I know, then an unbeliever can do that!
Sorry, you only understand the way you do... so that you can explain away the manifestations!