1 Cor. 12-14

[John of Japan]

I just came across this difference tonight...If I said anything right now it would just be my opinion.

I do not think we will lose knowledge, I just think we would just know all things then. We would not have to gain more knowledge.

The Bible never says we will know all things. It says we will know as we are known. Therefore, we will not all things about ourselves, not all things.

If we knew all things, we would be omniscient like God. This is similar to the charismatic "manifest sons of God" teaching there are in these last days special prophets and apostles that will have powers similar to Christ, and be "sons of God" in a similar way to Him. Is this what you believe?

"These Manifest Sons of God, ones who have come into the full stature of Jesus Christ, would receive the Spirit without measure. They would be as Jesus was when he was on earth and would receive a number of divine gifts, including the ability to change their physical location, to speak any language through the Holy Spirit, and would be able to perform divine healings and other miracles. They would complete the work of God, restoring man's rightful position as was originally mandated in Genesis. By coming into the full stature of Christ, they would usher in his millenial reign. Extreme versions of this interpretation referred to Jesus as a "pattern" Son and applied "ye are gods" (Psalms 82:6) to this coming company of believers" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Sons_of_God)

 

[awaken]

The Bible never says we will know all things. It says we will know as we are known. Therefore, we will not all things about ourselves, not all things.

If we knew all things, we would be omniscient like God. This is similar to the charismatic "manifest sons of God" teaching there are in these last days special prophets and apostles that will have powers similar to Christ, and be "sons of God" in a similar way to Him. Is this what you believe?

"These Manifest Sons of God, ones who have come into the full stature of Jesus Christ, would receive the Spirit without measure. They would be as Jesus was when he was on earth and would receive a number of divine gifts, including the ability to change their physical location, to speak any language through the Holy Spirit, and would be able to perform divine healings and other miracles. They would complete the work of God, restoring man's rightful position as was originally mandated in Genesis. By coming into the full stature of Christ, they would usher in his millenial reign. Extreme versions of this interpretation referred to Jesus as a "pattern" Son and applied "ye are gods" (Psalms 82:6) to this coming company of believers" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Sons_of_God)

Don't know what you are getting at??
We will know as we are known at Jesus coming, right?

 

[John of Japan]

Don't know what you are getting at??
We will know as we are known at Jesus coming, right?

You said,

I do not think we will lose knowledge, I just think we would just know all things then. We would not have to gain more knowledge.

So you believe we will be omniscient, right?

 

[DHK]

Agape love is eternal! Tongues will cease when we leave this earth.

Love is eternal for God is love.
Knowledge is eternal for God is omniscient.
Both the love of God and the omniscience of God are already eternally with God for the are a part of the very essence of God.

Love will cross the barrier of death and go on to Heaven with us.

Love (as well as the knowledge of God) existed before there were any barriers to cross.

We will not need to supernaturally speak in any of the languages of this earth once we are in Heaven.

Most people only speak in one language now, and there is no one alive today that speaks in the Biblical gift of tongues. Neither can you point to one that does, and demonstrate it according to Biblical evidences.
We don't need to speak supernaturally in any of the languages of this earth today.

The diversities of tongues will cease. The only language we will speak there is a common language.

Diversities of tongues or the gift of it, has already ceased. If you want to learn a different language then you study it and learn it.

We will be able to walk up to anyone we meet and hold a converstation with them in perfect clarity.

You can do that now if you really want. It simply takes some study on your part. We also have some great technology to help us.

1 Cor. 13 says knowledge will end! It does not say Word of knowledge!
Gnosis: 1108 gnw'siß Gnosis (gno'-sis);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine
from (1097)

knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
the general knowledge of Christian religion
the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living

KJV Word Count (Gnosis #1108) knowledge 28
science 1

Yep, it does say that. Thus according to your definition we will all be mindless ignorant zombies wandering about space bowing down to a God without knowledge, for all knowledge has vanished. The universe will have sucked it out in an inverted big bang.

 

[awaken]

You said,

So you believe we will be omniscient, right?

So you believe we know as we are known, now?

No, I do not believe we will be omniscient. We will be like Christ in his resurrection form.

 

[awaken]

Love is eternal for God is love.
Knowledge is eternal for God is omniscient.
Both the love of God and the omniscience of God are already eternally with God for the are a part of the very essence of God.

But we are to become as Christ (but we have not arrived). We have the love of God in us( But it is not perfected in us)...we are a work in progress!

Love (as well as the knowledge of God) existed before there were any barriers to cross.

God's love is in us! So is knowledge! Yes, God is love and has all knowledge...but are we complete in these?
I thought we agreed that tongues in the Bible was languages? So why do we need different languages in heaven. We will know as we are known.

Most people only speak in one language now, and there is no one alive today that speaks in the Biblical gift of tongues. Neither can you point to one that does, and demonstrate it according to Biblical evidences.
We don't need to speak supernaturally in any of the languages of this earth today.

The biblical manifestation of the Holy Spirit, tongues being one of them. Is still here today! Tongues is a language that the Holy Spirit gives and the speaker did not have to learn it.

Diversities of tongues or the gift of it, has already ceased. If you want to learn a different language then you study it and learn it.

You still do not understand biblical tongues! They are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! You do not have to learn them! They are a language the Holy Spirit gives the utterance! Not for the purpose of preaching but praising and magnifying God!

You can do that now if you really want. It simply takes some study on your part. We also have some great technology to help us.

We are speaking of heaven...So you are saying we need to learn different languages in Heaven. They are going to have a school in heaven to be able to communicate with each other? OR are we going to know as we are known in heaven?

Yep, it does say that. Thus according to your definition we will all be mindless ignorant zombies wandering about space bowing down to a God without knowledge, for all knowledge has vanished. The universe will have sucked it out in an inverted big bang.

No, I just gave the definition of knowledge! And showed once more that manifestation of the Holy Spirit says "WORD of knowledge." What will cease is Knowledge!

 

[John of Japan]

So you believe we know as we are known, now?

No, I believe precisely as the Bible says. "Know" is in the future tense. And when we know, it will not be omniscience, but we will know as we are known, indicatin that the content of the knowledge in question will be precisely what we are known as--we will know ourselves and what Christ has done for us perfectly.

No, I do not believe we will be omniscient. We will be like Christ in his resurrection form.

Thank you for answering my question. You seemed to indicate another view in your post. I've asked you a couple of times now about manifest sons of God doctrine, and you've not answered. I'm assuming ignorance.

 

[awaken]

No, I believe precisely as the Bible says. "Know" is in the future tense. And when we know, it will not be omniscience, but we will know as we are known, indicatin that the content of the knowledge in question will be precisely what we are known as--we will know ourselves and what Christ has done for us perfectly.

So when will we know as we are known? On earth or heaven?

Thank you for answering my question. You seemed to indicate another view in your post. I've asked you a couple of times now about manifest sons of God doctrine, and you've not answered. I'm assuming ignorance.

For once your assuming is correct! Because I told you I had no idea what you were talking about!
Ignorance is such a harsh word! Maybe uninformed...:laugh:

 

[DHK]

No, I just gave the definition of knowledge! And showed once more that manifestation of the Holy Spirit says "WORD of knowledge." What will cease is Knowledge!

Unbelievable! Incomprehensible!
"What will cease is knowledge," is what you say.
If knowledge ceases we all become inanimate objects, lifeless beings, or what? The fact that we have life gives us the ability to have knowledge.
How can knowledge ever cease? If knowledge ceases so does life.

 

[awaken]

Unbelievable! Incomprehensible!
"What will cease is knowledge," is what you say.
If knowledge ceases we all become inanimate objects, lifeless beings, or what? The fact that we have life gives us the ability to have knowledge.
How can knowledge ever cease? If knowledge ceases so does life.

Again...I did not give my interpretation or opinion on this! I just quoted what was in the Bible!

The defintion of knowledge is a copy and paste! I just laid the facts down there. YOu can look it up yourself! I asked several post back what the difference was. Why did he say "Word of knowledge" in chapter 12 and in chapter 13 he just said knowledge.

If you continue to go on the Bible being that which is complete in chapter 13 (which I do agree it is complete). BUT...our knowledge is not complete about the Bible and it will not be until He returns!

 

[DHK]

Again...I did not give my interpretation or opinion on this! I just quoted what was in the Bible!

The defintion of knowledge is a copy and paste! I just laid the facts down there. YOu can look it up yourself! I asked several post back what the difference was. Why did he say "Word of knowledge" in chapter 12 and in chapter 13 he just said knowledge.

If you continue to go on the Bible being that which is complete in chapter 13 (which I do agree it is complete). BUT...our knowledge is not complete about the Bible and it will not be until He returns!

I realize that. What you are posting should make you realize that the knowledge in 1Cor.13:8 is a specific kind of knowledge, not common knowledge. It is "revelatory knowledge." And, along with tongues and prophecy it ceased at then end of the first century. That is the only way the verse makes sense. Knowledge will never cease. We serve a God who is all-knowing. It is one of the characteristics that makes him God. We will learn from him. It is impossible for knowledge to cease.

But the knowledge mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, revelatory knowledge has ceased already. It was only necessary as long as the canon of Scripture was not complete and then it was not needed any longer. So the gift ceased. It was a gift, a temporary gift. That which is in part shall be done away with, and it was. It was done away with when the completed word of God came. We have that which is complete--the Bible right now. We don't need those revelatory gifts, including the gift of revelatory knowledge, any more. It was temporary. The verse in no way refers to common knowledge, and cannot refer to common knowledge.

The gift of revelatory knowledge, words of knowledge, etc. have ceased.
We depend on the Word of God to direct us. It is all we need. The Lord speaks to us through his word.

Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[awaken]

I realize that. What you are posting should make you realize that the knowledge in 1Cor.13:8 is a specific kind of knowledge, not common knowledge. It is "revelatory knowledge." And, along with tongues and prophecy it ceased at then end of the first century. That is the only way the verse makes sense. Knowledge will never cease. We serve a God who is all-knowing. It is one of the characteristics that makes him God. We will learn from him. It is impossible for knowledge to cease.

But the knowledge mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, revelatory knowledge has ceased already. It was only necessary as long as the canon of Scripture was not complete and then it was not needed any longer. So the gift ceased. It was a gift, a temporary gift. That which is in part shall be done away with, and it was. It was done away with when the completed word of God came. We have that which is complete--the Bible right now. We don't need those revelatory gifts, including the gift of revelatory knowledge, any more. It was temporary. The verse in no way refers to common knowledge, and cannot refer to common knowledge.

The gift of revelatory knowledge, words of knowledge, etc. have ceased.
We depend on the Word of God to direct us. It is all we need. The Lord speaks to us through his word.

Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

I do not believe they have ceased...so we will just have to disagree!
The knowledge...I am still looking into!

 

[John of Japan]

So when will we know as we are known? On earth or heaven?

In Heaven, as the context makes clear.

For once your assuming is correct! Because I told you I had no idea what you were talking about!
Ignorance is such a harsh word! Maybe uninformed...:laugh:

If you are going to be a Charismatic, you really need to be informed about the movement, which has so many, many strange doctrines and practices wich which you are going to be confronted.

 

[awaken]

In Heaven, as the context makes clear.



If you are going to be a Charismatic, you really need to be informed about the movement, which has so many, many strange doctrines and practices wich which you are going to be confronted.

I am going for Bible truth! No one denomination has complete truth!

So if heaven is where we know as we are known...then that is when the gifts will cease according to 1 Cor. 13!!

 

[John of Japan]

I am going for Bible truth! No one denomination has complete truth!

You just don't get it, do you? You don't learn. I'll say it again, but I seriously doubt if you will internalize it this time. The Charismatic Movement is not a denomination. It is a movement. It has no doctrinal statement, no denominational name, no denominational leader (elected or appointed), etc. etc.

So if heaven is where we know as we are known...then that is when the gifts will cease according to 1 Cor. 13!!

No, I disagree completely. But I have no assurance will listen to me no matter what I say. You are completely locked in to your own mistaken interpretations, and pay no attention to the actual content of what I say or what anyone else says on the BB who doesn't agree with you.

 

[awaken]

You just don't get it, do you? You don't learn. I'll say it again, but I seriously doubt if you will internalize it this time. The Charismatic Movement is not a denomination. It is a movement. It has no doctrinal statement, no denominational name, no denominational leader (elected or appointed), etc. etc.

Maybe you do not get it! God did not come here to set up a denomination or religion! He is about a relationship! Religion is man's search for God. He called out a people to walk in the power of His resurrection! I chose to believe the Bible over Man's teachings! If charismatic means believing in the that power, then I am charismatic! By the way there are those that believe in the manifestation of the HOly Spirit in every denomination!

No, I disagree completely. But I have no assurance will listen to me no matter what I say. You are completely locked in to your own mistaken interpretations, and pay no attention to the actual content of what I say or what anyone else says on the BB who doesn't agree with you.

You are right! I am locked in to what the Bible teaches and not your interpretation. You just admitted that we will not know as we are known until we get to heaven.

THat is when the "that which is done in part" will cease! When we know as we are known. So by your own confession you just admitted that by saying "we will know as we are known when we are in heaven."

Now you need to read 1 Cor. 13 with that in mind...your own confession!

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe you do not get it! God did not come here to set up a denomination or religion! He is about a relationship! Religion is man's search for God. He called out a people to walk in the power of His resurrection! I chose to believe the Bible over Man's teachings! If charismatic means believing in the that power, then I am charismatic! By the way there are those that believe in the manifestation of the HOly Spirit in every denomination!

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. THEY ARE IN EVERY DENOMINATION--IT'S A MOVEMENT.

You are right! I am locked in to what the Bible teaches and not your interpretation. You just admitted that we will not know as we are known until we get to heaven.

THat is when the "that which is done in part" will cease! When we know as we are known. So by your own confession you just admitted that by saying "we will know as we are known when we are in heaven."

Now you need to read 1 Cor. 13 with that in mind...your own confession!

I memorized the chapter 40 years ago, love it and meditate on it. I certainly don't need a Charismatic to teach me 1 Cor. 13. And I resent your attitude that you know the Bible better than anyone else. 1 Cor. 13:4 says, "Charity vaunteth not itself," yet yere you are vaunting that you are perfect in your interpretation.

 

[awaken]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. THEY ARE IN EVERY DENOMINATION--IT'S A MOVEMENT.

It is a Bibllical Fact! THe manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still here today!

I memorized the chapter 40 years ago, love it and meditate on it. I certainly don't need a Charismatic to teach me 1 Cor. 13. And I resent your attitude that you know the Bible better than anyone else. 1 Cor. 13:4 says, "Charity vaunteth not itself," yet yere you are vaunting that you are perfect in your interpretation.

Lets see...vaunteth not itself..."I memorized the chapter 40 years ago!" "I don't need anyone else (charismatic) to teach me" "I resent your attitude"

I see you ignored the fact of your own confession by pointing the finger that I vaunted myself up! Which I did not! I said I believe the Bible!

 

[John of Japan]

Lets see...vaunteth not itself..."I memorized the chapter 40 years ago!" "I don't need anyone else (charismatic) to teach me" "I resent your attitude"

I see you ignored the fact of your own confession by pointing the finger that I vaunted myself up! Which I did not! I said I believe the Bible!

Sorry, my words are not what vaunting one's self means. Please study 1 Cor. 13 more deeply.

The Charismatic movement is so full of errors that I'd be foolish to learn from a Charismatic. I've been debating starting a thread listing those errors. You've now convinced me to do so.

 

[awaken]

Sorry, my words are not what vaunting one's self means. Please study 1 Cor. 13 more deeply.

The Charismatic movement is so full of errors that I'd be foolish to learn from a Charismatic. I've been debating starting a thread listing those errors. You've now convinced me to do so.

You still ignored your own confession about knowing as we are known are not until we reach heaven.