1 Cor. 12-14

[Don]

I was going to leave this alone, and go my merry way; but the tone I perceived in the last sentence wouldn't let me.

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.
If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, why would he manifest different through tongues in the book of Acts?

Exactly! Why would Paul need to rebuke them if they had the proper manifestation of the gift!

Tongues is for a sign, what sign is it for? ...and if you say it was JUST for the Jews, then I ask "Don't we still have Jews today?"

1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.

My wedding ring is a sign to the world that I am married. When do I need to throw my wedding ring away?

When you're not married any more.

Tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
HE was poured out and here today! He was given to the church, so an unbeliever can not manifest the Holy Spirit.

Who said that an unbeliever could manifest the Holy Spirit?

If it was a language that I know, then an unbeliever can do that!

You're talking in circles. My point was, and always has been, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22); that Paul taught that our primary purpose should be edification of others and ourselves (1 Cor 14:5, 12, 15, 19, 26).

Sorry, you only understand the way you do... so that you can explain away the manifestations!

And I'm sorry you only understand the way you do, using a rebuke to justify a doctrine.

 

[awaken]

The unbelievers of 1Cor.14:21 are specifically called "this people" or the Jews of that time, the first century, who would meet with certain judgment if they did not take heed to the sign of the gift of tongues. They did not take heed, and they met with judgment in 70 A.D. You do not have any of those Jews around today. The prophecy was fulfilled. The sign is no longer needed.

You conveniently split my post up. It says it clearly in 1Cor.14:21. Then I used the Scripture from Acts 2 and John 1:11 to back up what 1Cor. 14:21 teaches. It teaches that tongues is a sign to "this people" the nation of Israel.
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

As quoted above, it cannot refer to anyone else but the nation of Israel. They were the ones who would not listen to God's message.

Pentecost will never be repeated again. Neither will the event at the house of Cornelius, or at Ephesus in Acts 19. They are historical events. "The manifestation" was not tongues. It was at least 9 gifts, but as plain'n simple said, quite a few more than 9. All the gifts of the Spirit were "manifestations" as you put it. And tongues was least important of them all.

Actually you mean 1Cor.12.
And the are gifts of the Holy Spirit, not manifestations. Where does it say they were manifestations?

This is heresy. The Holy Spirit is God. He is not a gift.
Read Romans 6:23 and Eph.2:8,9. The gift of God is eternal life. The gift of God is salvation. The Holy Spirit is not a gift. He is God, the third person of the triune Godhead. He is not manifested in signs and wonders. They are given by God. The Holy Spirit is not some kind of surreal ecstatic force. He is a real person. Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit and was killed because of it. Tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God.

You don't have to lie about the Bible. Or, you could just plead ignorance instead. But since I have shown this verse to you, it is a lie.

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
--The Scripture is there; you don't need to lie and say it isn't.
--And no, you haven't addressed it. As per usual, you avoid difficult questions.

Then you better start digging.

You are not even able to explain the Scripture "women keep silence in the church" without contradicting yourself."

After explaining to you what parts of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled, I then explained to you this:

What you posted above has nothing to do with this answer.
What has that answer got to do with the Holy Spirit "calling us today"?
Absolutely nothing. You don't make sense.

That was in response to a nonsensical answer you gave, just like the one above. Yes, I never denied people are still calling on the name of the Lord. No one here has. Do you have a hard time following a discussion?

And that is precisely why the Spirit did NOT fall upon ALL FLESH. The Spirit came as promised, did what he promised to do. Christ had already provided the way of salvation through the cross. But the Holy Spirit has not fallen on all flesh.

That is not what the verse says.

The Bible does not teach that the Spirit came on all flesh. You teach that; not the Bible.

He is available to those who call on him, and that is all.
He is not on all the flesh--people of the world. Why can't you simply admit that. There is coming a day when that will happen. But it is not now.

I have answered all of your post more than once...so if you want any response..just go back through the thread they have all been addressed!
Acts 12:7 is a good scripture for you to memorize! Because you keep forgetting it!

 

[plain_n_simple]

If you think about it, a lot of unbelievers spend a lot of time developing teaching that supports why something good from God won't happen, instead of why something good from God will happen. I know that some will not believe until they see it, and some still won't believe even though they do see it, and a few will see the move of God and will call it Satan.

 

[awaken]

I was going to leave this alone, and go my merry way; but the tone I perceived in the last sentence wouldn't let me.

Maybe it is because I am tired of repeating my self! If the thread was read...it would not need repeating! Why ask the same questions over and over...I am going to give the same answers because the scriptures only give one answer.

Exactly! Why would Paul need to rebuke them if they had the proper manifestation of the gift!

Because they were in a church setting! Everyone speaking to God at one time was out of order. He corrected how to stay peaceful and orderly. BUT DID NOT FORBID IT!

1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.

I agree! Maybe you can convince DHK that truth (good luck). As a believer we do not need a sign! We just need to let the Holy Spirit manifest through us.

When you're not married any more.

Well if tongues is a sign to the unbelievers??? I rest my case!

Who said that an unbeliever could manifest the Holy Spirit?

Can't remember why I said that?? But they can't

You're talking in circles. My point was, and always has been, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22); that Paul taught that our primary purpose should be edification of others and ourselves (1 Cor 14:5, 12, 15, 19, 26).

ok, well we agree on what Paul taught! And again..as a believer I do not need a sign! I already believe!

And I'm sorry you only understand the way you do, using a rebuke to justify a doctrine.

My doctrine I have backed up with scriptures! Pauls rebuke was justified! But He did not say they had ceased...just to do it orderly so that all could be edified in the church!

 

[awaken]

If you think about it, a lot of unbelievers spend a lot of time developing teaching that supports why something good from God won't happen, instead of why something good from God will happen. I know that some will not believe until they see it, and some still won't believe even though they do see it, and a few will see the move of God and will call it Satan.

True! ....if people would only have faith in what the word says! Faith is believing what the word says before it actually happens. Most people want proof before they even believe!

 

[awaken]

You are not answering this question very clearly so I will ask it again:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

What does it mean when it says "knowledge shall vanish away."
What knowledge, and when will knowledge vanish away?
Please be specific.

Why will we need knowledge when Jesus comes? We will know as we are known!

The Bible is specific! IT says that knowledge will be done away when we see him face to face and know as we are known.

You say that when the Bible was complete tongues would be done away with...well so will knowledge. As long as we have the COMPLETE word of God we still need knowledge! How can we understand the word without it?

YOu tell me what knowledge is? Is it the same as a "word of knowledge?"
Why wouldn't Paul say "Word of knowledge" would be done away with instead of knowledge in 1 Cor. 13?

 

[DHK]

Why will we need knowledge when Jesus comes? We will know as we are known!

The Bible is specific! IT says that knowledge will be done away when we see him face to face and know as we are known.

You say that when the Bible was complete tongues would be done away with...well so will knowledge. As long as we have the COMPLETE word of God we still need knowledge! How can we understand the word without it?

YOu tell me what knowledge is? Is it the same as a "word of knowledge?"
Why wouldn't Paul say "Word of knowledge" would be done away with instead of knowledge in 1 Cor. 13?

No, this time I want to pursue your interpretation.
So when Christ comes knowledge will cease. You say we will meet him face to face so we won't have any need of knowledge.

We won't need to learn anything in heaven? We won't have any knowledge of who anyone else is?

We won't have any knowledge of what Christ has done for us?

Our minds will be completely wiped clean of knowledge--no knowledge whatsoever?? There won't be knowledge in heaven? Just how is that going to work? Are we going to be mindless automatons? Absolutely no knowledge??

 

[plain_n_simple]

DHK: Have you ever placed your hands on the sick and prayed?

 

[DHK]

DHK: Have you ever placed your hands on the sick and prayed?

Yes I have. That is not a gift of the Holy Spirit according to 1Cor.12-14, but rather instructions that are given to the local church and specifically laid out for us in James chapter five.

 

[awaken]

No, this time I want to pursue your interpretation.
So when Christ comes knowledge will cease. You say we will meet him face to face so we won't have any need of knowledge.

We won't need to learn anything in heaven? We won't have any knowledge of who anyone else is?

We won't have any knowledge of what Christ has done for us?

Our minds will be completely wiped clean of knowledge--no knowledge whatsoever?? There won't be knowledge in heaven? Just how is that going to work? Are we going to be mindless automatons? Absolutely no knowledge??

I just came across this difference tonight...If I said anything right now it would just be my opinion.

I do not think we will lose knowledge, I just think we would just know all things then. We would not have to gain more knowledge.

 

[DHK]

I just came across this difference tonight...If I said anything right now it would just be my opinion.

I do not think we will lose knowledge, I just think we would just know all things then. We would not have to gain more knowledge.

Just think for a minute then:

First: Only God is omniscient. Only God knows all things, even in heaven. We will never come to that point. If we did, then we could claim divinity. Omniscience is an attribute of God.

Second, one of the things we can look forward to in heaven is sitting at his feet and learning from him. Yes, even in heaven there will be much to learn. It is one thing I look forward to.

Now having established those two premises, what "knowledge" will vanish away, and when?

 

[awaken]

Just think for a minute then:

First: Only God is omniscient. Only God knows all things, even in heaven. We will never come to that point. If we did, then we could claim divinity. Omniscience is an attribute of God.

Second, one of the things we can look forward to in heaven is sitting at his feet and learning from him. Yes, even in heaven there will be much to learn. It is one thing I look forward to.

Now having established those two premises, what "knowledge" will vanish away, and when?

At first I thought it was "word of knowledge" mentioned in Cor. 12. But I noticed that it did not say "WORD of knowledge"..it just said knowledge.
Again...I have just come across this difference and need to search and pray about it.

It could be the same?? Not sure! Either way it ends when we see him face to face and know as we are known.
It just mentions tongues, prophecy and knowledge will end....

Where in scripture does it say we will be sitting at his feet learning? I have heard that all my life but don't know where it is in scripture.

 

[DHK]

At first I thought it was "word of knowledge" mentioned in Cor. 12. But I noticed that it did not say "WORD of knowledge"..it just said knowledge.
Again...I have just come across this difference and need to search and pray about it.

It could be the same?? Not sure! Either way it ends when we see him face to face and know as we are known.
It just mentions tongues, prophecy and knowledge will end....

Where in scripture does it say we will be sitting at his feet learning? I have heard that all my life but don't know where it is in scripture.

In Rev.4:4, It says they have crowns upon their heads.
In Rev.4:10, it says that they throw those crowns before the feet of Jesus in an act of worship.

In Rev. 5. It says that all the redeemed "sang a new song." Though we will have a redeemed body, will we know that song automatically or will we "learn" that song even if it is in a very few seconds?

In Rev.19 Christ comes back to earth with his saints (us) to face the enemies of the Jews at the Battle of Armeggedon. The enemies will be destroyed and the Jews will be destroyed. Then the Millennial Kingdom will begin.
It says that we will reign with him. I believe that we will have to "learn" how to reign, that it is not an automatic process or or knowledge. In fact there will be many things in the Millennial Kingdom that we will learn.

After that the Lord will make a new heaven and a new earth. They will be there for our exploration and dominion. We will have much to learn about then. Throughout eternity we will be learning from Jesus. It will never stop.

The knowledge in 1Cor.13:8 is revelatory knowledge, and has strictly to do with partial revelation. It ceased when the Word of God was complete.

Until Christ comes again, the Bible says "knowledge shall increase". It is one of the signs of his coming.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Then in heaven we will be taught of Christ, the omniscient One.

 

[awaken]

In Rev.4:4, It says they have crowns upon their heads.
In Rev.4:10, it says that they throw those crowns before the feet of Jesus in an act of worship.

In Rev. 5. It says that all the redeemed "sang a new song." Though we will have a redeemed body, will we know that song automatically or will we "learn" that song even if it is in a very few seconds?

In Rev.19 Christ comes back to earth with his saints (us) to face the enemies of the Jews at the Battle of Armeggedon. The enemies will be destroyed and the Jews will be destroyed. Then the Millennial Kingdom will begin.
It says that we will reign with him. I believe that we will have to "learn" how to reign, that it is not an automatic process or or knowledge. In fact there will be many things in the Millennial Kingdom that we will learn.

After that the Lord will make a new heaven and a new earth. They will be there for our exploration and dominion. We will have much to learn about then. Throughout eternity we will be learning from Jesus. It will never stop.

The knowledge in 1Cor.13:8 is revelatory knowledge, and has strictly to do with partial revelation. It ceased when the Word of God was complete.

Until Christ comes again, the Bible says "knowledge shall increase". It is one of the signs of his coming.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Then in heaven we will be taught of Christ, the omniscient One.

Will we be taught or will we just know?

 

[DHK]

Will we be taught or will we just know?

I believe we will be taught, and thus learn.
Only Christ is omniscient, and knows all things. If we could know all things then we would be God. Not even the angels know all things. The angels look down from heaven in amazement wondering at the redemption of mankind, for they have never been redeemed.

 

[awaken]

I believe we will be taught, and thus learn.
Only Christ is omniscient, and knows all things. If we could know all things then we would be God. Not even the angels know all things. The angels look down from heaven in amazement wondering at the redemption of mankind, for they have never been redeemed.

Not know ALL things, just what He want to teach us we will just know!
So know as we are known means what?

 

[DHK]

Not know ALL things, just what He want to teach us we will just know!
So know as we are known means what?

The purpose of the sign gifts was to confirm the preaching of the apostles before the word of God was given in final written form, and that the need for these miracle gifts passed when the NT was completed.
Now (during the apostolic age) we see in a mirror, dimly. No single one of (apostles) has received God's full revelation. It is being given to us in portions, like parts of a puzzle. When the Canon of Scripture is completed, the obscurity will be removed and we will see the picture in its entirety. Our knowledge (as apostles and prophets) is partial at present. But when the last book has been written and added to the NT, we will know more full and intimately than ever before.

No matter what view one takes, the abiding lesson is that while the gifts of the Spirit are partial and temporary, the fruit of the Spirit is eternal and is more excellent. If we practice love, it will save us from the misuse of gifts and from the strife and divisions that have arisen as a result of their abuse (William MacDonald).

 

[awaken]

The purpose of the sign gifts was to confirm the preaching of the apostles before the word of God was given in final written form, and that the need for these miracle gifts passed when the NT was completed.
Now (during the apostolic age) we see in a mirror, dimly. No single one of (apostles) has received God's full revelation. It is being given to us in portions, like parts of a puzzle. When the Canon of Scripture is completed, the obscurity will be removed and we will see the picture in its entirety. Our knowledge (as apostles and prophets) is partial at present. But when the last book has been written and added to the NT, we will know more full and intimately than ever before.

No matter what view one takes, the abiding lesson is that while the gifts of the Spirit are partial and temporary, the fruit of the Spirit is eternal and is more excellent. If we practice love, it will save us from the misuse of gifts and from the strife and divisions that have arisen as a result of their abuse (William MacDonald).

But not full complete knowledge! We do not understand (know) completely! We will not in this age, even though the written word is complete...our knowledge of that word is not!

 

[DHK]

But not full complete knowledge! We do not understand (know) completely! We will not in this age, even though the written word is complete...our knowledge of that word is not!

The passage you are questioning is somewhat allegorical in nature. Paul comparing himself to childish or immature is referring to Christianity or the church being childish and immature. During that time, in its early stages, as it is not grown up to maturity it needs help, help that came from the temporary sign gifts. But then Paul matured and became an adult. In time the church grows up. In time the sign gifts are no longer. The did not need to rely on them any longer when they would have the perfect (or completed Word of God). That was the day Paul was looking for--that day of maturity when the Word of God would be completed and the gifts would no longer be needed. He would be able to see himself as he is, as the Word of God would reflect Him to be, just as a mirror would. He wouldn't see darkly "in mysteries" any longer. When all the revelation would be put together every thing would make sense. The puzzle would be complete.

Knowledge will never end. It cannot. The context is revelation. Prophecy is revelation. Tongues is a form of revelation (like prophecy when it has interpretation), and the third is "revelatory" knowledge, not just common knowledge.

 

[awaken]

The passage you are questioning is somewhat allegorical in nature. Paul comparing himself to childish or immature is referring to Christianity or the church being childish and immature. During that time, in its early stages, as it is not grown up to maturity it needs help, help that came from the temporary sign gifts. But then Paul matured and became an adult. In time the church grows up. In time the sign gifts are no longer. The did not need to rely on them any longer when they would have the perfect (or completed Word of God). That was the day Paul was looking for--that day of maturity when the Word of God would be completed and the gifts would no longer be needed. He would be able to see himself as he is, as the Word of God would reflect Him to be, just as a mirror would. He wouldn't see darkly "in mysteries" any longer. When all the revelation would be put together every thing would make sense. The puzzle would be complete.

Knowledge will never end. It cannot. The context is revelation. Prophecy is revelation. Tongues is a form of revelation (like prophecy when it has interpretation), and the third is "revelatory" knowledge, not just common knowledge.

Agape love is eternal! Tongues will cease when we leave this earth. Love will cross the barrier of death and go on to Heaven with us. We will not need to supernaturally speak in any of the languages of this earth once we are in Heaven. The diversities of tongues will cease. The only language we will speak there is a common language. We will be able to walk up to anyone we meet and hold a converstation with them in perfect clarity.

1 Cor. 13 says knowledge will end! It does not say Word of knowledge!
Gnosis: 1108 gnw'siß Gnosis (gno'-sis);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine
from (1097)

knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
the general knowledge of Christian religion
the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living

KJV Word Count (Gnosis #1108) knowledge 28
science 1