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Featured 1 Cor. 12-14

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You do understand that these gifts are supernatural? In other words an unsaved person can not manifest these.

    You are confusing the gift of prophecy with the prophetic office. Paul said the prophecy speaks of edification, exhortation, and comfort. So there is no revelation. The office of a prophet, however we often find that revelation or tortelling does come forth, even through the vehicle of prophecy.

    There is a difference in the OT and Nt prophecy. OT prophecy was foretelling, but in the NT the gift of prophecy shifts strongly to forth telling.

    Prophecy is more than preaching. To preach means to "to proclaim" "to announce" "to cry or tell." THe purpose of prophecy and preaching is different in scriptures. People are saved through preaching (1 Cor. 1:21) not prophecy.

    THere is a lot to this gift....and we are all to desire it! Not all are called to preach!
     
    #221 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  2. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Love how you keep throwing that last statement up there!

    THe apostles were not the only ones that manifested the Holy Spirit! How do you explain your theory up against that! YOU CAN'T!!
     
    #222 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  3. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    When a Christian commands sickness to leave in His name, and it does, He is manifesting the Fathers will on earth through that Christian. Word with power! You can call it a gift, and you can call it a sign, this is the hope of His glory! We are commanded to do the works that He did praise God!
     
    #223 plain_n_simple, Sep 20, 2012
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Oh, but I do! You ignore the scriptures that show them speaking to God.

    Yet! You post this...

    You admitted that it was speaking to God here! Interesting that now you are saying something different!

    Can you explain speaking to God? When I speak to God it is called PRAYER!
     
    #224 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  5. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    ...and you leave out ...SPEAK TO GOD! Be quiet in church UNLESS there is an interpreter!
     
    #225 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    It was only useless to the church because there was not edification without interpretation.

    THe bold is your added theory..you do not find that in scripture!
    The second half you have yet to prove in scripture...because we have not seen Him face to face...and we do not know as we are known! That is when it will cease and ONLY then!
     
    #226 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    No, I am not confused! But you seem to be. Do you enjoy adding to someones post what they do not say? I have not said anyone is unspiritual!

    The gift of tongues is a MANIFESTATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! How do you seperate the gift (HOLY SPIRIT) from His manifestations (tongues being one of them).

    No where in scriptures does it say the purpose of tongues is to establish churches! You keep adding to scriptures your opionion trying to explain away the manifestations.

    Whether is was the most important or the least ...it was still a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

    I did not place importance on tongues! If you will go back and read this thread it was you and others that keep bringing tongues up! I am just defending the Word! I opened up the thread to discuss the THREE chapters..I tried several times to get off the subject of tongues. So tell me now..Who is hung up on tongues? ..not me!

    Nowhere does it say that wemon can not speak tongues in church. They just have to have an interpretation just like a man.
    YOu deny Acts 2:39! "..As many as the Lord our God shall call." You have noted wrongly!

    Really, unbelief is anchored in the Word? I thought FAITH was anchored in the Word? I was not called to do the above list! But I am promised the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

    Please quit accusing me of being in a movement that I am not in! My faith is in Jesus Christ! If we are to continue discussing in this thread...I would appreciate it if you will stop the personal attacks! Stick to the scriptures!

    I do not deny this scripture! But tell me what part does the Holy Spirit play since the Day of Pentecost? He is God on the earth now! Jesus is on the right hand of the Father!

    I am so glad I listen to the Word instead of man's theories! Because I do get to experience what the WORD says I can!

    I will address the experience thing with you one last time...and then I will ignore you comments about this.

    First off, there can be no valid Christian doctrine without experience. Scripture was not dictated to a scholar sitting in an office. Scripture was the inerrant, Holy Spirit-inspired witness of men to the mighty acts of God!
    Even Paul had an experience by being knocked down by the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus talked about a balanced life, a need to operate in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

    The Bible encourages personal encounters with God. Knowing Christ is an experience! The goal is to know Christ! Paul writes: "That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His suffering, being conformed to His death"
     
    #227 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Question to all those that believe that the manifestations have ceased with the last apostle or was only for the apostles...

    Mark 16:17-18 ..."and these signs shall follow them that believe" If we believe the preaching of the apostles it says these signs will follow us (the ones that believed), right?

    Question for those that insist that the completion of the Bible ended the gifts...

    Can you give me a date in your history books that it was cut off? I mean was someone prophesying and in the middle of it..it just ended. Was someone speaking in tongues and all of a sudden they stopped? Curious to what your history books proclaim about this?
     
    #228 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I didn't leave out anything.
    What part of the verse don't you understand:

    it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
     
    #229 DHK, Sep 20, 2012
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Therefore, Paul said, don't speak in other languages. Common sense prevails.
    So you believe that the word of knowledge was given to the fools and not to the wise. That is an interesting theory. How do you arrive at it? Read 1Cor. chapter 3. He rebukes them because they were still babes in Christ and could not eat strong meat. He further rebukes them because they were acting childish in their desire for this showy gift and not being mature. Therefore Paul says, "I show you a better gift." He tells them plainly that tongues is the least of all the gifts and that he would rather speak five words with understanding (his own language), then 10,000 works in another language that cannot be understood. Do the math. "Hi, my name is Paul." Five words of understanding. Those five words are more important than ten thousand words in tongues. How much more important--2,000 times more important.
    Your interpretation is all your own and is simply your opinion. Chapter 13:8-13 is speaking of the completed word of God. Seeing "face to face" is speaking of completed Word of God reflecting back our image as the Word of God is used as a mirror reflecting back our true image. The same symbolic imagery is used in James chapter one. Paul does not deviate from the topic of revelation. With your interpretation your are introducing another topic right in the midst of the passage that doesn't make sense. The topic is spiritual gifts, specifically revelatory gifts. You are changing the topic where it is not needed.
     
    #230 DHK, Sep 20, 2012
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And Paul rebuked them for doing so. He told them to shut up; keep silence.
    You cannot tell a rebuke if it stood on its end and slapped you in the face, can you? You don't build doctrine on a rebuke.
     
    #231 DHK, Sep 20, 2012
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely not.
    1) See DHK's post #219.

    2) Paul wasn't correcting the apostles from Acts 2. He was correcting the church at Corinth for their use of tongues. Why would they need correction? Because they weren't doing it right. So obviously the way the gift of tongues were done in Acts 2 is different from the way it was being done in 1 Cor 14. You make an error here by trying to say the two were the same.

    3) I made no assumption that the disciples understood what they were saying in Acts 2. I said that scripture is silent on whether they understood or didn't understand. Therefore, for me to say that they understood what they were saying is adding to scripture; just as for you to say that they didn't understand what they were saying is adding to scripture. The one thing we do know for sure is that the hearers heard them each in their own language, and told everyone that they heard them speaking in their own language the wonderful works of God.
     
    #232 Don, Sep 20, 2012
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Your feathers seem a little ruffled! I am not building a doctrine on rebuke! He told them to keep silent and TALK TO GOD! WHat part of "talk to God" do you not understand?
     
    #233 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    But how was he correcting them? He was not forbidding! Speaking in tongues is the same throughout scripture. It is a language spoken by a believer that he does not understand. It is an utterance given by the HOly Spirit. It is speaking to God!
     
    #234 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You are not interpreting that scripture right! It has nothing to do with tongues they are speaking of prophecy! You need to understand why in that setting they were to keep silent! Study it out!
     
    #235 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  16. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    To believe as you do contradicts other scriptures!

    Your repetition is getting boring and still does not prove what you put in bold! It adds to the word!

    Wrong again! You are stretching it trying to say it is the complete written word. No where in those chapters does he mention the complete word. You are also wrong about face to face...(1 John 3:2) tells us when face to face will be!
     
    #236 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    What part of "let your women keep silence in the churches" do you not understand?
    What part of "they are not permitted to speak" do you not understand.
    What part of "It is a shame for women to speak in the church" do you not understand?

    It is not a difficult verse to figure out when the same command is reiterated three different times.
     
    #237 DHK, Sep 20, 2012
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So you are saying a woman can not speak in church? Does your wife speak in church?
     
    #238 awaken, Sep 20, 2012
  19. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    v7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
    v9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
    10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
    11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
    12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
    v19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
    20 Brethren, be not children in understanding

    THAT is how he was correcting them. How can anyone not read those words and say, "you know what? I need to be really, really, *really* careful if I or someone else says they have the gift of tongues."

    In Acts, please show scripture that says the speakers did not understand what they were saying.

    Note that in 1 Cor 14:6, Paul says "IF I come unto you speaking with tongues"; and in v14 "IF I pray in an unknown tongue." Just like in 1 Cor 13, there's a reason to pay attention to every jot and every tittle. Because look at what Paul says in v15: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

    Chapter 14 may wrap up with "forbid not"; but the context of chapter 14 is "edification of others." You can't edify others, or even yourself, if you have no idea what's being said.

    Remember, in 1 Cor 12, Paul was telling them that not all have the gift of tongues; and if I read 1 Cor 12 correctly, I wouldn't want everyone to have the gift of tongues. So if everyone in your church is saying that they pray in tongues, whether when they're alone or elsewhere, then there's something wrong.

    And with that, I withdraw from this conversation. It's gone on too long.
     
    #239 Don, Sep 20, 2012
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.
    If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, why would he manifest different through tongues in the book of Acts?
    Tongues is for a sign, what sign is it for? ...and if you say it was JUST for the Jews, then I ask "Don't we still have Jews today?"
    My wedding ring is a sign to the world that I am married. When do I need to throw my wedding ring away?
    Tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
    HE was poured out and here today! He was given to the church, so an unbeliever can not manifest the Holy Spirit.
    If it was a language that I know, then an unbeliever can do that!
    Sorry, you only understand the way you do... so that you can explain away the manifestations!
     
    #240 awaken, Sep 21, 2012
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