Featured 1 Cor. 12-14

No he did not.
If I pray in an unknown tongue...my understanding is unfruitful.
We may pray in the spirit whether we pray in another language or not. The two are not equated. Your exegesis of the verse is wrong.

What is it then I will pray with the spirit, (either in tongues or otherwise), and I will pray with understanding also (either in tongues or otherwise)
One results in chaos (without interpretation). The other results in edification, (when there is no tongues). If I pray Latin (I grew up in the RCC when it was all in Latin) then no one today would understand me. What benefit would it be? And would it be praying in the Spirit though it would be praying in another tongue??

 

Throughout the chapter Paul condemned anything that had no understanding. That was his entire point. It is also why he said:

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

"Greetings, my name is DHK." Five words! That is all. That has more benefit then 10,000 words spoken in another tongue without understanding, whether it be aloud or in prayer. "Understanding" That was the key in the entire chapter. There is no benefit to anyone, not even to God, if there is no understanding.

First do you have "the gift of tongues" not just the ability. The gift of tongues was a supernatural ability to speak in another known language, not known to the speaker but known to the hearers. "How hear we every man in our language?" That is the "gift of tongues," and it is the only kind of tongues that is Biblical.
Second, do you have the "gift of interpretation?" This was an entirely different gift. Why would they need it. If you go to India and the gift of tongues enables you to speak in Telegu, why would you need an interpreter? Remember that the gift of tongues was a sign to the Jews. It was no doubt interpreted back into Hebrew for the benefit of the Jews, for it was a sign to the Jews. But always tongues needed an interpreter. Always tongues needed the presence of Jews. It was a sign to the Jews. The prayer was public, not private. It was not meant to be a selfish gift such as you are using it for. In the verse you are using Paul condemned praying in an unknown tongue because there was no understanding.

No he isn't. If he is, what is the meaning of what you are saying? What language are you speaking in? God is a God of order, not of chaos. How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not a demon? If you don't know the meaning you don't know if it is the Holy Spirit. You must admit that possibility. Satan is a great deceiver.

This in itself goes directly contrary to the Scripture. We are never to lose control of our mind, never to let anything bypass our mind. That leaves it open to demonic control.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--We are in a battle; the battle is in the mind. How can you possible bring every thought into captivity, to the obedience of Jesus Christ if you are allowing them to bypass your mind. This is the most dangerous thing you can do.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
--Our minds are to be continually engaged on thinking on those things that are honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report. We cannot bypass the mind.

In the same chapter:
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
--Prayer results in the peace of God which in turn will keep your hearts and MINDS through Jesus Christ.
--We cannot bypass the mind. It is a dangerous thing to do. The mind must be engaged at all times.

The Holy Spirit never works apart from the mind.

Actually they don't, but even if they did, the Holy Spirit would never disassociate itself from the mind. That is an impossibility, and the most foolish thing a Christian could ever do.
Praying in the Spirit is not praying in tongues. The two are very different.
In the first century one needed the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. That is obvious. But that gift has ceased. However we can still pray in the Spirit and should. No one should never pray "outside" of the Holy Spirit. That would be carnal.

That is a false statement. There is one kind of prayer. It is with understanding. Prayer is communication with God. One can only communicate with understanding. Otherwise it is not prayer. You must understand what you are saying and so must God. It is two way communication.

Again that is false. Paul always prayed in the spirit; to do otherwise would be carnal. But he did not pray in tongues unless there was a need to. Praying in the spirit and praying in tongues are two separate things. Praying with understanding was Paul's emphasis.

 

Paul said: "IF I give my body to be burned....," but he never said that he did or would give his body to be burned.
The statement was conjecture, rhetorical.

The same is true here:
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, myt spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

He never said he prayed in an unknown tongue.
He said IF I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays BUT my understanding is unfruitful. NOTE: the word IF.
Paul would never do anything without "understanding."
That was the entire point of the whole chapter. Make sure you have understanding in everything you do.

 

Paul is using a conditional sentence (what is known as a 3rd-class conditional sentence) to express a hypothetical situation.

DHK is right: Paul is not saying that he has done these things. He is saying that if, hypothetically, he did these things without love, the actions would be, in effect, worthless.

The Archangel

 

No one denies that Paul spoke in tongues. That doesn't make it a legitimate gift for today.
Paul was an apostle.
Paul spoke in the presence of first century Jews.
Paul spoke because the NT was not yet complete.
Paul spoke in a real intelligent known language.
Paul spoke with an interpreter.

 

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Come now! Paul would not go against the very Scriptures he was inspired to write. He would not be the hypocrite to go against the very advice that he was giving. Of course he had an interpreter! He would not allow anything to be said in tongues without an interpreter. Paul was not a hypocrite and would not go against his word or God's Word!!

There is only one kind of prayer, and that is with understanding, otherwise prayer is not prayer. You are bifurcating prayer and making a needless dichotomy in prayer by your bad grammar. That is not what the statement says.

I will pray with the Spirit and I will pray with understanding.

I will pray with the Spirit and I will pray for you.

That is not two separate actions or two different kinds of prayer. It is one. The conjunction "and" makes them one, not two subjects.

 

I believe that all the gifts mentioned in the NT are operative today, including tongues. However, I do not agree with the Pentecostal or Charismatic doctrines of the baptism of the Holy Spirit with initial evidence of speaking in tongues.

When I was attending a Charismatic church many years ago, one person in particular would tell me that I was letting my mind get in the way. My immediate thought was, no, my mind is keeping false doctrine from getting in the way.

 

Brother, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1. IF anyone were to speak in tongues, then there must be order to it.
2. There could only be two, at the most three in the church. Remember it is not a private gift. It is a gift for the edification of the church, not to be used privately.
3. And these three had to speak in turn; one by one.
4. Someone always had to interpret--Always!
5. In no interpreter there was to be silence. This is an important point.
6. Let him speak to himself and to God. This does not mean in tongues. There is no indication of that. Even verse 29, the following verse speaks of prophecy, not of tongues.

Give any example where Paul spoke outside of a church. I don't think you can.
What did Paul do during his life?
He wrote 13 epistles--all of them either to local churches or pastors of local churches.
He went on 3 missionary journeys, and in those missionary journeys established over 100 churches.
Now where would Paul have occasion to use the God-given spiritual gift of tongues? It was a gift given to the church. It was to be used in the churches. And that is where he used it. That is why he used it more than them all--because he was a "missionary" one who went and established churches in foreign lands. He had more need for the gift than others.

What mysteries? We have all we need to know in the Word of God. If you know "mysteries" outside of the Word of God, claiming you know them of the Holy Spirit, I would suggest to you that you know knowledge from a demon spirit and not the Holy Spirit. God speaks through his word today. Study Heb.1:1,2. He does not give extra-biblical knowledge. The canon of Scripture is closed.

It is a command to pray. It takes obedience to pray, discipline to pray.
Christ didn't need faith. He has no need of faith because he is perfect.
Yet he was in the garden praying to his Father. He would have liked his disciples to pray with him, but they were tired and slept. It took discipline, not faith. You are confused. Christ did not need faith to pray. He needed human strength. Near the end you can read how an angel came to strengthen him. He didn't need faith. Suffering as a man, he needed discipline, strength, endurance.

 

What language do you pray in? The word "tongue" as in mother tongue, simply means "language." To speak in other tongues means other languages, real and known to others, even when you pray. The Bible never teaches any other definition of tongues or languages.
Thus, in verse two, if I speak in another language, (Telegu [if I knew it] ) then you would not understand me, but God would. That is because it is a real language. Tongues are always real languages.
"If I speak in an unknown language I do not speak unto men, but unto God." Why? You and others would not understand the Telegu, but God would. If it were gibberish, not even God would understand it.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
--That is one verse. He says that he spoke more than any one of them.
The place where he spoke was the church or churches. He would never go against the Word.

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
--Now he clarifies how unimportant tongues are. Speaking with understanding is important, not tongues. In fact in 1Cor.12:28 "tongues" is listed last as the gift of least importance. There the gifts are all listed in order of importance, and tongues and the interpretation thereof are listed last.

Because it happens.
It even happened in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1. Don't be ignorant of spiritual gifts--verse one. In 1:7 Paul points out that the Corinthian church was not lacking in any of the gifts; they had them all.
2. Sometimes they let their pagan past get the best of them. IOW, it was possible that some of their speaking in tongues could have been influenced by demons. Speaking in tongues was done by pagan nations.
3. No man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed.
4. No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Now think about that. I came out of the RCC an unsaved person. I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Yet many times I said that Christ was Lord, but it wasn't by the Holy Spirit. It was out of my carnal religious past. Many religious people call Jesus Christ, Lord. They do so without the Holy Spirit. It is not hard to get them to repeat those words either. So what does this verse mean?

Many of them were speaking in tongues--other languages, but they were under the influence of demons. Some of them, without even knowing it, were cursing the Lord in a language that they did not know. Thus Paul says that the Holy Spirit will always call Christ Lord; demons will not. Someone will recognize the language that they are speaking in. They are real languages.

Faith is not blind. Faith always is exercised on the basis of facts. My faith is based on the facts of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is for that reason I believe I have eternal life and forgiveness of sins. A Hindu exercises "blind faith." He bathes himself in the "holy waters" of the Ganges River, trusting that the waters of that river will wash away his sins. But what does he base his faith on? How does he know that that polluted river will wash away his sins. He doesn't. And it won't. It is blind faith.

Your faith is also blind, and not based on any fact. It is not based on the Word of God. You have nothing to back it up. It is totally experiential, mystical, and even gnostic to some degree. But it is not Biblical. Prayer is always, always, made with understanding. If you have no understanding it is not prayer. Prayer, by definition, must have understanding.

Paul did not say that:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
--He said he spoke in tongues, not prayed in tongues, more than them all.
And it was always in the church, and always with understanding.

There is no private use for tongues. It is a gift to be used for the church.
You are contradicting the chapter by your own blindness. Paul was rebuking their use of tongues in almost every verse.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

The body of Christ here is the local church. Each one is a member. They all had different gifts. Some were apostles, some prophets, some had the gift of healings, and last of all there were tongues.
Notice: FIRST, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then... All the gifts were put in order of importance, and tongues is last--the least important.

Now look at the rhetorical questions put forth by Paul in verse 29?
Are all apostles? Are you?
Are all prophets? Are you?
Are all workers of miracles? Are you?

No, they weren't. They all had different gifts. Not everyone would have the gift of tongues, and in fact very few would have that gift. Perhaps more would have the gift of helps. Never are we told to seek this gift. In fact we are discouraged to use it, and they were encouraged to seek to prophesy and teach instead. Those gifts could be understood and would edify. Tongues would not.

 

No, I decline. This is one subject that I'm not interested enough in to get into a detailed discussion about. The issue was settled for me a long time ago. As I said, I believe in all the gifts of the Spirit but not the Pentecostal or Charismatic interpretation of them. I am content to leave it at that.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way. Actually, I have read every single post and done my best to understand what you are saying and reply to it. I don't feel you've done the same.

No, sorry, you can't deny the influence of Charismatics in your life. What you said is that you heard what they were saying and thought you could disprove it. May I ask if you went to your pastor about these doctrines before trying to combat the Charismatics? Did you go to other older, experienced Christians and ask their advice?

How do I see the tongues as different? I've already shared that, but here it is again. Maybe I haven't been clear enough.

(1) In Acts the tongues were miraculous, given from God to witness to others. Thousands were saved, and that is far more important than the tongues.

(2) In 1 Cor. the tongues are simply languages, special linguistic ability given by the Holy Spirit. There was no Pentecost like Acts 2 in Corinth (the worst church in the NT), no one was said to be saved through the tongues, they were not in an upper room, they saw no fiery tongues, there was no earthquake. You have not proven any different.

(3) Modern Charismatic tongues are nothing like the tongues in the Bible. Charismatic missionaries have to go to language school just like I did. They see no one saved with their tongues. Charismatic tongues are a private prayer language like you've been touting, and that is nowhere in the Bible, despite your protestations.

(4) Modern Charismatic tongues divide churches. They started that way in the 1960's, and continue to do so. As long as you're in Jude, read v. 19: "These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" (NKJV).

You accused me in your post of reading the Bible with bias, saying "Read it again without your bias beliefs." I charge you with this in Jude. You are being careless with God's Word.

(1) Praying in the Holy Spirit in Jude is very different from your verse in 1 Cor. 14:14, where it is "my spirit," the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit of God as in Jude.

(2) You say, "We are in the last days." The truth is, we've been in the last days since Pentecost, where Peter used the phrase in quoting Joel.

You know, as with most tongues speakers, you seem to value tongues above witnessing for Christ. May I ask, have you ever won anyone to Christ? Have you witnessed for Christ recently? If the answer to these questions is no, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit nor have you ever been. I suggest that you kneel in humble repentance to God and ask His forgiveness for emphasizing tongues (never commanded in the Bible) over witnessing for Christ, the last command of our Savior on the earth--the Great Commission.