1 John 2:2

[taisto]

Christ is the propitiation for all sins, He was the means of appeasement. His death made it possible for God to forgive all those that would trust in His son while those that reject His son would still be under His wrath.

If as you posit Christ paid for all sin including unbelief then if God judged anyone that would be double jeopardy for those the He sent to hell. Plus you have to give a good reason that He sent anyone to hell since, as you say, all sins were paid for. So what were they being judged for?

You are not thinking your position through to the logical end.

Do you see your error? Did Jesus pay for all sins? You deny that Jesus paid for all sins. You declare that Jesus only was a means of payment and the payment is not made until humans decide to ask Jesus to pay for their sins. So, Jesus atonement is not a reality until humans pray a prayer or somehow invoke God's appeasement through an action of their own design. Your position is no longer about God's grace. Instead, your position requires human effort as the means by which God is left with the decision to save by grace or destroy in wrath. What you are presenting is actually the essential teaching of the Roman Church which teaches justification by faith plus works, which causes God to be gracious.

I don't posit that Christ paid for all humans. I state, that Christ died for all humans that God has given to him. Thus the verses you share are also verses I share to point out God's particular choice of humans to whom Christ paid for all their sins. Because Christ paid for all their sins, they will believe and not perish. There is no double jeopardy and the entire Bible remains true without contradiction.
As I stated earlier, we have the same verses, but you interpret these verses in a way that you end up with an untenable contradiction. That is something you will either live with or you will resolve it. There is resolution, but the only resolution comes with you admitting that God is the determining agent, not man.

 

[taisto]

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 4:24, ". . . Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: . . . "

Colossians 1:16-17, ". . . For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. . . ."

His body was on the cross when He had layed down His soul. It was already completed, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Paid in full. Which was essential for His resurrection. So He said, "It is finished."

How do those verses teach unlimited atonement? I don't see anything there in your quotations that teaches unlimited atonement. I see tares among the wheat.

 

[Silverhair]

You said man is saved by doing something that Christ didn't die for, so you saved yourself by doing what Christ didn't die for.

The more you keep saying these silly thinks the more you show that you really do not trust the word of God. I have given you numerous scriptures to support my view and you have provide none that support yours. All I get from you is your calvinist talking points.

Your calvinism is built on a bad foundation which if you took the time to actually study it you would see for yourself. But since you do not appear to want to know the truth you will refuse to do so.

No BF, I said man is condemned for something that Christ did not die for {unbelief}. If He had, as you say, died for unbelief then no one could be condemned for unbelief as Christ would have taken that penalty out of the way. So under your view everyone would be part of the elect and all would been saved so you are promoting universalism.

 

[37818]

How do those verses teach unlimited atonement?

Did you even read, 2 Peter 2:1? Who bought them?

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 4:24, ". . . Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: . . . "

Colossians 1:16-17, ". . . For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. . . ."

 

[Silverhair]

Do you see your error? Did Jesus pay for all sins? You deny that Jesus paid for all sins. You declare that Jesus only was a means of payment and the payment is not made until humans decide to ask Jesus to pay for their sins. So, Jesus atonement is not a reality until humans pray a prayer or somehow invoke God's appeasement through an action of their own design. Your position is no longer about God's grace. Instead, your position requires human effort as the means by which God is left with the decision to save by grace or destroy in wrath. What you are presenting is actually the essential teaching of the Roman Church which teaches justification by faith plus works, which causes God to be gracious.

I don't posit that Christ paid for all humans. I state, that Christ died for all humans that God has given to him. Thus the verses you share are also verses I share to point out God's particular choice of humans to whom Christ paid for all their sins. Because Christ paid for all their sins, they will believe and not perish. There is no double jeopardy and the entire Bible remains true without contradiction.
As I stated earlier, we have the same verses, but you interpret these verses in a way that you end up with an untenable contradiction. That is something you will either live with or you will resolve it. There is resolution, but the only resolution comes with you admitting that God is the determining agent, not man.

@taisto I can see where your real problem is. You do not read what the bible says you just read into the bible what you want to find. I even put the definitions in the post for you and you still get it wrong.
Propitiation: The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making one propitious. {in biblical theology, God}

Propitious: Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

It does not say paid, you have to read that into the text so that it fits your calvinist view. That you continue to twist scripture is your problem. Follow your calvinism I will follow the bible.

 

[taisto]

You finally got it @taisto God is not the determiner. He has provide the means of salvation.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

But man must choose to follow Him, God does not drag people in to heaven.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Salvation is a gift from God to those that believe
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So God does not determine our way?
What do you do with Proverbs 16:9?

"We can make our plans, but the Lord determines our steps."

How about John 6:44?

"For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."

Do you ignore these verses in order to maintain your conundrum?

God is most certainly the determiner and the provider of the means by which we are saved.

I know of no verse that tells us that God takes a secondary, passive, response to salvation. Yet, your explanation is exactly that. You present that God died on the cross to provide a potential pathway to salvation, but man must find that pathway and choose that pathway in order to be saved. Silverhair, where is the grace of God in your teaching? At best, you are teaching Roman Catholic means of salvation. At worst, you are teaching a pharisaical means of salvation.

 

[taisto]

@taisto I can see where your real problem is. You do not read what the bible says you just read into the bible what you want to find. I even put the definitions in the post for you and you still get it wrong.
Propitiation: The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making one propitious. {in biblical theology, God}

Propitious: Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

It does not say paid, you have to read that into the text so that it fits your calvinist view. That you continue to twist scripture is your problem. Follow your calvinism I will follow the bible.

Did Jesus appease the wrath of God for all humanity? That would be a universal propitiation.
But, you are now saying that there is only a potential that Jesus appeased the wrath of God for all humanity. You limit God by human actions superceding Jesus actions and making the value of Jesus death contingent upon mankind doing something in order to invoke the power of the cross.

You must see that you cannot live with propitiation alone. You have now added propitious to the equation and are attempting to deny the full force of propitiation.

Silverhair, you have a conundrum that you seem unable to resolve.

 

[Silverhair]

So God does not determine our way?
What do you do with Proverbs 16:9?

"We can make our plans, but the Lord determines our steps."

Here we see that man has the ability to make plans. Thus it shows that man has a will that he can exercise.
The fact that God can overrule man’s decisions and has the final say in all matters is not contrary to the doctrine that man has a will whereby he can accept or reject God’s dealings with him.

{cf Genesis 2:16-17; Jeremiah 7:31; Ezekiel 18:32; John 3:16-18}

How about John 6:44?

"For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, that nothing lies in our own power..." John Chrysostom (387 AD)

So it seems you are putting your theology in some questionable company.

But notice who is drawn to Christ Jesus:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Note it is not just some as you seem to think or do you think Jesus got it wrong?

But even if we put that aside you still show that you overlook context.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Which we see again here:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Do you ignore these verses in order to maintain your conundrum?

God is most certainly the determiner and the provider of the means by which we are saved.

So as you can see from what I have posted I do not ignore those verses although you do seem to have ignored all the verses that I have provided or have twisted what they say. And as I have said and shown it is God who is the determiner and provider of salvation.
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
He has determined to save those that have trusted in His son and He has provided the grace to save those ones that do.

I know of no verse that tells us that God takes a secondary, passive, response to salvation. Yet, your explanation is exactly that. You present that God died on the cross to provide a potential pathway to salvation, but man must find that pathway and choose that pathway in order to be saved. Silverhair, where is the grace of God in your teaching? At best, you are teaching Roman Catholic means of salvation. At worst, you are teaching a pharisaical means of salvation.

I am not sure how much scripture I have to post, which you ignore, before you will stop with your silly comments.
You are right I have shown that God died on the cross to provide a potential pathway to salvation, but man must find that pathway and choose that pathway in order to be saved. Just as the bible shows. You asked where is the grace in that:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You said you see not verse where God responds to mans faith:
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

You keep saying that we have a different understanding of the verses I post but if I am just posting verses and you are disagreeing with the clear English of those texts what does that say about your understanding of the scripture?

 

[RipponRedeaux]

So you have just admitted that you do not believe the bible, is that right?

Don't be stupid SH.

 

[Brightfame52]

The more you keep saying these silly thinks the more you show that you really do not trust the word of God. I have given you numerous scriptures to support my view and you have provide none that support yours. All I get from you is your calvinist talking points.

Your calvinism is built on a bad foundation which if you took the time to actually study it you would see for yourself. But since you do not appear to want to know the truth you will refuse to do so.

No BF, I said man is condemned for something that Christ did not die for {unbelief}. If He had, as you say, died for unbelief then no one could be condemned for unbelief as Christ would have taken that penalty out of the way. So under your view everyone would be part of the elect and all would been saved so you are promoting universalism.

You said man is saved by doing something that Christ didn't die for, so you saved yourself by doing what Christ didn't die for.

 

[Silverhair]

Don't be stupid SH.

What did you post @RipponRedeaux
The word propitiation is being emptied of its meaning by some here. If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell. That's obviously false. The wrath of God abides on every person who is not a believer. The wrath of God even hangs onto a person who will be saved. At the point of conversion His wrath doesn't abide any longer. God's wrath has been satisfied. Does anyone think that the residents of Hell have had their sins propitiated by Christ's sacrifice? That is absurd. God is at peace with those who have been reconciled to Him through the cross work of Christ. There is no peace between an unregenerate person and God. No peace --no reconciliation -- no intercession -- no propitiation.

You quite clearly do not know what the word propitiation means or you would not make the comment you did. Also as I said you must not believe the bible as it is at odds with your comment.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
There is not exclusion indicated in that verse as you seem to think. So perhaps you should just start trusting what the bible says.
Propitiation does not mean that the sins were forgiven but that they could be forgiven for those that freely trust in Christ Jesus.

 

[Brightfame52]

You keep saying that but the bible does not agree with your TULIP. I trust the bible not your calvinism.

Scripture teaches the Truths of TULIP because its the Gospel of Gods Grace which you scoff at in unbelief.

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

What did you post @RipponRedeaux
The word propitiation is being emptied of its meaning by some here. If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell. That's obviously false.

No its True. Those whom Christ propitiated God for, God is reconciled to them and at peace with them for Christs sake.

The wrath of God abides on every person who is not a believer.

False, The ones Christ died for, the elect, they are reconciled to God even while being unbelieving enemies, by the death of Christ Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So if they are reconciled to God by Jesus death while enemies, its impossible for them to be under Gods wrath as enemies, as unbelievers. So you made a false statement that detracts from the efficacy of Christs wrath appeasing death.

 

[Silverhair]

Scripture teaches the Truths of TULIP because its the Gospel of Gods Grace which you scoff at in unbelief.

BF you live in a calvinist echo chamber. The bible is the standard not your calvinism. What you call truths of your DoG contradict the character of God.

You are correct on one point, I do not think that calvinism is a true representation of how God deals with His creation. Calvinism has distorted the truths of the bible and have a flawed understanding of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

silverhair



No its True. Those whom Christ propitiated God for, God is reconciled to them and at peace with them for Christs sake.

BF read the verse without the calvinist bias.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
The only way your view works is if we have universalism. You are saying everyone, all of humanity, will be saved. You have misunderstood the biblical text and are twisting it to fit your theology.

Jesus is the propitiation G2434 for the sins of believers, many of whom John is addressing (“for our sins”); and furthermore, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of “the whole world,” meaning unbelievers to whom John is not directly writing.

False, The ones Christ died for, the elect, they are reconciled to God even while being unbelieving enemies, by the death of Christ Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So if they are reconciled to God by Jesus death while enemies, its impossible for them to be under Gods wrath as enemies, as unbelievers. So you made a false statement that detracts from the efficacy of Christs wrath appeasing death.

BF I have made this point before but it seems you keep missing it. CONTEXT. you continue to fall into error because you do not read verses in context.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Ask yourself BF, are only your so call "elect" ungodly, sinners, enemies of God or does that refer to all of humanity?

But notice that being reconciled does not mean saved. The whole world was and still is in a state of sin. While the death of Christ Jesus appeased God it is only through faith in the risen Christ that one is saved.

Why do you avoid the last part of the sentence? The only time the one is not under God's wrath is when they are in Christ.

 

[taisto]

What did you post @RipponRedeaux
The word propitiation is being emptied of its meaning by some here. If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell. That's obviously false. The wrath of God abides on every person who is not a believer. The wrath of God even hangs onto a person who will be saved. At the point of conversion His wrath doesn't abide any longer. God's wrath has been satisfied. Does anyone think that the residents of Hell have had their sins propitiated by Christ's sacrifice? That is absurd. God is at peace with those who have been reconciled to Him through the cross work of Christ. There is no peace between an unregenerate person and God. No peace --no reconciliation -- no intercession -- no propitiation.

You quite clearly do not know what the word propitiation means or you would not make the comment you did. Also as I said you must not believe the bible as it is at odds with your comment.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
There is not exclusion indicated in that verse as you seem to think. So perhaps you should just start trusting what the bible says.
Propitiation does not mean that the sins were forgiven but that they could be forgiven for those that freely trust in Christ Jesus.

In your response above you wrote:

"If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell."

Yet, you keep saying that 1 John 2:2 is talking about all humans, universally.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Silverhair, you are contradicting yourself. Look at what 1 John 2:2 is saying.

You are now saying that Jesus didn't propitiate the sins of everyone (that's limited atonement by the way), yet you teach unlimited atonement from 1 John 2:2. You are making two contradictory claims that are unreconcilable. You have tried to reconcile this by adding another word , propitious, to the dialogue, yet the Bible doesn't use that word in 1 John 2:2. To use your catch phrase, Silverhair, do you believe what the Bible says? Or are you inserting your bias into the text? The answer is clear. You are inserting a bias that the Bible doesn't state.

 

[37818]

@Silverhair,
The [5 point] Calvinist are only going to read 1 John 2:2 in their mindset. So even though you have carefully explained the propitiation and propitious it made no difference how they are going to understand that verse in their view.

You are making two contradictory claims that are unreconcilable. You have tried to reconcile this by adding another word , propitious, to the dialogue, yet the Bible doesn't use that word in 1 John 2:2.

Sure, I could be wrong here. But this is how I am hearing this.

 

[taisto]

@Silverhair,
The [5 point] Calvinist are only going to read 1 John 2:2 in their mindset. So even though you have carefully explained the propitiation and propitious it made no difference how they are going to understand that verse in their view.

Silverhair added the word propitious when the text in 1 John 2:2 doesn't use that word. What does the text say?
1 John 2:2 is a difficult verse for anyone who doesn't adhere to universalism...if a person does not take into account the context of John's letter. Silverhair has avoided context in his quotations of the Bible as if grasping the context were a plague. He has continuously told us to just read the verse and accept the verse. Yet, Silverhair is adding to the verse, himself, as an attempt to undo universalism while denying the determination of God in saving souls.
Both the free will proponent and the grace of God alone proponent have to interpret this verse by adding something to the sentence John wrote as a means of explaining what John is saying. That is precisely what Silverhair is doing with this verse.

37818, is the word "propitious" used in 1 John 2:2? Yes or no.

 

[Silverhair]

In your response above you wrote:

"If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell."

Yet, you keep saying that 1 John 2:2 is talking about all humans, universally.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Silverhair, you are contradicting yourself. Look at what 1 John 2:2 is saying.

You are now saying that Jesus didn't propitiate the sins of everyone (that's limited atonement by the way), yet you teach unlimited atonement from 1 John 2:2. You are making two contradictory claims that are unreconcilable. You have tried to reconcile this by adding another word , propitious, to the dialogue, yet the Bible doesn't use that word in 1 John 2:2. To use your catch phrase, Silverhair, do you believe what the Bible says? Or are you inserting your bias into the text? The answer is clear. You are inserting a bias that the Bible doesn't state.

Actually I did not put @RipponRedeaux comment in quotes, b my mistake.
Here is the quote of his words
"The word propitiation is being emptied of its meaning by some here. If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell. That's obviously false. The wrath of God abides on every person who is not a believer. The wrath of God even hangs onto a person who will be saved. At the point of conversion His wrath doesn't abide any longer. God's wrath has been satisfied. Does anyone think that the residents of Hell have had their sins propitiated by Christ's sacrifice? That is absurd. God is at peace with those who have been reconciled to Him through the cross work of Christ. There is no peace between an unregenerate person and God. No peace --no reconciliation -- no intercession -- no propitiation."

So you may want to reconsider what you had written.

What I wrote was in response to his words.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair added the word propitious when the text in 1 John 2:2 doesn't use that word. What does the text say?
1 John 2:2 is a difficult verse for anyone who doesn't adhere to universalism...if a person does not take into account the context of John's letter. Silverhair has avoided context in his quotations of the Bible as if grasping the context were a plague. He has continuously told us to just read the verse and accept the verse. Yet, Silverhair is adding to the verse, himself, as an attempt to undo universalism while denying the determination of God in saving souls.
Both the free will proponent and the grace of God alone proponent have to interpret this verse by adding something to the sentence John wrote as a means of explaining what John is saying. That is precisely what Silverhair is doing with this verse.

37818, is the word "propitious" used in 1 John 2:2? Yes or no.

@taisto you do struggle with logic I see.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I understand that you can not conceive of God actually loving the whole world and desiring that all repent and trust in Christ Jesus but that is what the bible tells us so you just have to get use to it.

Your responses have started to verge on the absurd. Do you not understand what a definition is. Come back to reality so we can have a logical exchange of views.