1 John 2:2

[37818]

@taisto,

You take @Silverhair's explanation of propitious to be adding it to 1 John 2:2. Now he did not say that.

Now you have not answered my post#164.
Regarding who bought them, whom they were denying in 2 Peter 2:1?

Link: 1 John 2:2

 

[taisto]

@taisto,

You take @Silverhair's explanation of propitious to be adding it to 1 John 2:2. Now he did not say that.

Now you have not answered my post#164.
Regarding who bought them, whom they were denying in 2 Peter 2:1?

Link: 1 John 2:2

Does 2 Peter 2:1 deny effectual atonement?

The link provides the answer.

Look at Silverhair's first use of propitious. He provides a definition of propitiation from a dictionary and then adds a definition of propitious from a dictionary.

Does 1 John 2:2 use the word propitious? Yes or no.

 

[taisto]

Actually I did not put @RipponRedeaux comment in quotes, b my mistake.
Here is the quote of his words
"The word propitiation is being emptied of its meaning by some here. If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell. That's obviously false. The wrath of God abides on every person who is not a believer. The wrath of God even hangs onto a person who will be saved. At the point of conversion His wrath doesn't abide any longer. God's wrath has been satisfied. Does anyone think that the residents of Hell have had their sins propitiated by Christ's sacrifice? That is absurd. God is at peace with those who have been reconciled to Him through the cross work of Christ. There is no peace between an unregenerate person and God. No peace --no reconciliation -- no intercession -- no propitiation."

So you may want to reconsider what you had written.

What I wrote was in response to his words.

Did you write:
"If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell."

Yes or no.

You are dancing around your conflict.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you live in a calvinist echo chamber. The bible is the standard not your calvinism. What you call truths of your DoG contradict the character of God.

You are correct on one point, I do not think that calvinism is a true representation of how God deals with His creation. Calvinism has distorted the truths of the bible and have a flawed understanding of salvation.

You been duped my friend into scoffing the Gospel of Gods grace into calvinism.

 

[taisto]

@taisto you do struggle with logic I see.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I understand that you can not conceive of God actually loving the whole world and desiring that all repent and trust in Christ Jesus but that is what the bible tells us so you just have to get use to it.

Your responses have started to verge on the absurd. Do you not understand what a definition is. Come back to reality so we can have a logical exchange of views.

In 1 John 2:2, where does John use the word propitious? Don't you believe what the text says, Silverhair? Must you add words to God's word?

You have a conflict. You want universalism, but then you know that universalism is not taught in the Bible, so you create this theology from your own mind that says Jesus universally propitiated for every sin, except unbelief, which no verse in the Bible every states.

So, you are stuck with your conundrum and it is upon you to resolve it.

 

[taisto]

@taisto you do struggle with logic I see.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I understand that you can not conceive of God actually loving the whole world and desiring that all repent and trust in Christ Jesus but that is what the bible tells us so you just have to get use to it.

Your responses have started to verge on the absurd. Do you not understand what a definition is. Come back to reality so we can have a logical exchange of views.

What I note here is that you project your opinion of me onto your text and you never actually address 1 John 2:2 which is in conflict with your theology.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF read the verse without the calvinist bias.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
The only way your view works is if we have universalism. You are saying everyone, all of humanity, will be saved. You have misunderstood the biblical text and are twisting it to fit your theology.

Jesus is the propitiation G2434 for the sins of believers, many of whom John is addressing (“for our sins”); and furthermore, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of “the whole world,” meaning unbelievers to whom John is not directly writing.




BF I have made this point before but it seems you keep missing it. CONTEXT. you continue to fall into error because you do not read verses in context.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Ask yourself BF, are only your so call "elect" ungodly, sinners, enemies of God or does that refer to all of humanity?

But notice that being reconciled does not mean saved. The whole world was and still is in a state of sin. While the death of Christ Jesus appeased God it is only through faith in the risen Christ that one is saved.

Why do you avoid the last part of the sentence? The only time the one is not under God's wrath is when they are in Christ.

Those who Christ is their propitiation, they are reconciled to God even while they are in unbelief. And they are guaranteed to be regenerated[saved] by His Life.

 

[Brightfame52]

taisto

You have a conflict. You want universalism, but then you know that universalism is not taught in the Bible, so you create this theology from your own mind that says Jesus universally propitiated for every sin, except unbelief, which no verse in the Bible every states.

Correct because its false teaching, Jesus did die for the sin of unbelief because if He didn't, the ones He died for could not be reconciled to God while unbelieving enemies as Per Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Silverhair]

Did you write:
"If Christ propitiated the sins of every one then no one is in Hell and no one will be condemned to Hell."

Yes or no.

You are dancing around your conflict.

No that was a quote from @RipponRedeaux his post #121 of this thread.

I was replying to his quote in my post # 124

My position has not changed. Christ is the propitiation for all humanity which provides the opportunity for anyone to trust in Christ Jesus and to be saved by the grace of God because of their faith. Propitiation is appeasement not payment as calvinist have wrongly posited.

That is why I include the definitions
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

 

[Silverhair]

You been duped my friend into scoffing the Gospel of Gods grace into calvinism.

BF do yourself a favor and check out the history of your theological position. See what the foundation is. It is not very good.

But I doubt that you are willing to actually do that as you are to invested in your position. You can not even see the logical inconsistencies of your position.

 

[Silverhair]

What I note here is that you project your opinion of me onto your text and you never actually address 1 John 2:2 which is in conflict with your theology.

My opinion of you has not even been addressed. I do not know you so the only thing I can address is your comments, which is what I have done.

Would you care to show where I have not addressed 1Jn 2:2 and how is it in conflict with my theology?

 

[Silverhair]

Those who Christ is their propitiation, they are reconciled to God even while they are in unbelief. And they are guaranteed to be regenerated[saved] by His Life.

Your comments here just point to universalism.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You are so stuck in your calvinism that you can not even see the error in the comments you make.

 

[JonC]

I do not understand why we are changing the verse from Christ being the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world to Christ propitiating some or all sins. I have not seen an explanation yet for the change, but I may have missed it.

 

[taisto]

My opinion of you has not even been addressed. I do not know you so the only thing I can address is your comments, which is what I have done.

Would you care to show where I have not addressed 1Jn 2:2 and how is it in conflict with my theology?

You have attacked me much more than you have addressed the topic. Please stay on topic and leave your opinion of me out of the conversation please.

 

[Silverhair]

The word rendered “propitiation” (ἱλασμός hilasmos G2434) only occurs in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10 of this Epistle; though words of the same derivation, and having the same essential meaning, frequently occur. The corresponding word (ἱλαστήριον hilastērion G2435) occurs in Romans 3:25, rendered “propitiation” - “whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood;” and in Hebrews 9:5, rendered mercy-seat - “shadowing the mercy-seat.” The verb (ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai G2433) occurs also in Luke 18:3 - God be merciful to me a sinner;” and Hebrews 2:17 - “to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

 

[taisto]

No that was a quote from @RipponRedeaux his post #121 of this thread.

I was replying to his quote in my post # 124

My position has not changed. Christ is the propitiation for all humanity which provides the opportunity for anyone to trust in Christ Jesus and to be saved by the grace of God because of their faith. Propitiation is appeasement not payment as calvinist have wrongly posited.

That is why I include the definitions
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

Your view is universalism with a caveat that God did not pay for the sin of unbelief. Thus, you contradict yourself in 1 John 2:2.

If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universalism, which an undiscerning reading of the verse must teach, then John must not be talking about universalism when he states:

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

You, like a Calvinist, have to talk around the sentence and create an argument for why John does not mean "all." Your argument is that there is one sin that Jesus did not propitiate, which you label as "unbelief."

Did Jesus appease God's wrath for everybody in the entire history of humanity? If so, then what John means is indeed the whole world without exception and without man having to do anything. If John had meant to say that Jesus is only the means, but man has to freely choose the means provided by Jesus, then he would have said so in the verse. Silverhair, to use your words, do you believe what the Bible says? Look at what John says in just that one sentence. If you look only at that sentence, what does John tell you? What he doesn't tell you is that Jesus didn't provide propitiation for unbelief.

So, you have a conflict that you have not presently resolved for us.

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not understand why we are changing the verse from Christ being the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world to Christ propitiating some or all sins. I have not seen an explanation yet for the change, but I may have missed it.

It started at around post 112 with the use of John Owen's argument that he used against the "Universalists", which he meant to be those who believe in a general atonement.

 

[Silverhair]

You have attacked me much more than you have addressed the topic. Please stay on topic and leave your opinion of me out of the conversation please.

As I said I address your comments, if you take that as a attack on you then that is only in your mind not mine.

 

[Silverhair]

Your view is universalism with a caveat that God did not pay for the sin of unbelief. Thus, you contradict yourself in 1 John 2:2.

If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universalism, which an undiscerning reading of the verse must teach, then John must not be talking about universalism when he states:

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

You, like a Calvinist, have to talk around the sentence and create an argument for why John does not mean "all." Your argument is that there is one sin that Jesus did not propitiate, which you label as "unbelief."

Did Jesus appease God's wrath for everybody in the entire history of humanity? If so, then what John means is indeed the whole world without exception and without man having to do anything. If John had meant to say that Jesus is only the means, but man has to freely choose the means provided by Jesus, then he would have said so in the verse. Silverhair, to use your words, do you believe what the Bible says? Look at what John says in just that one sentence. If you look only at that sentence, what does John tell you? What he doesn't tell you is that Jesus didn't provide propitiation for unbelief.

So, you have a conflict that you have not presently resolved for us.

@taisto I gave you the definition of propitiation do you disagree with that definition? If so why and what is your?

Question: where do you get the idea that I do not think all means all. You keep hanging your hat on "paid" but Christ did not pay for the debts He appeased God regarding the sins so that God could now accept those that by faith come to Him through Christ Jesus. Note the definitions
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God.

Which requires that the person meet the one condition God has set, BELIEF IN HIS SON, so logically if one is in unbelief they have not met the condition.

While refusal to believe is indeed a sin, the reason it keeps one from salvation is not due to it being a sin, but because unbelief, by definition, precludes belief in Christ, without which no one can be saved (Hebrews 11:6). As with all sins Christ died for, forgiveness for unbelief is only obtained through subsequent belief in Him.

The problem is not with what I have said but with your misunderstanding of what the word "propitiation" means. Get that right and you will understand 1 John 2:2.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF do yourself a favor and check out the history of your theological position. See what the foundation is. It is not very good.

But I doubt that you are willing to actually do that as you are to invested in your position. You can not even see the logical inconsistencies of your position.

Its a sad thing when you scoff the Gospel of Gods Grace and flip it off as mans name. You been deceived