1 John 2:2

[Silverhair]

TULIP Truths are the Gospel of Gods Grace, if you reject them, you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace !

I reject the TULIP because it does not show the grace of God as we find in the bible.

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

The logical other side of your TULIP is that God has Unconditionally Condemned the vast majority of humanity to hell. They are not condemned because they freely rejected God because they were never able to accept God under your TULIP. So this brings up the question, why does the devil have to temp anyone? According to your TULIP those Unconditional Elected can't be lost and those not part of the Unconditional Election can't be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

So people are saved when they do something, something the death of Christ didnt do, since unbelief according to you wasnt covered by the death of Christ. Congratulations, you are your own saviour from unbelief which caused you to get saved.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes that is exactly what the bible says. We have to place our trust in Christ Jesus. Turn from unbelief to belief.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

We do not save ourselves but God saves those that freely trust in His son. Trust the bible BF not your calvinism .

 

[Brightfame52]

I reject the TULIP because it does not show the grace of God as we find in the bible.

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

The logical other side of your TULIP is that God has Unconditionally Condemned the vast majority of humanity to hell. They are not condemned because they freely rejected God because they were never able to accept God under your TULIP. So this brings up the question, why does the devil have to temp anyone? According to your TULIP those Unconditional Elected can't be lost and those not part of the Unconditional Election can't be saved.

Friend if you reject TULIP then you reject the Gospel of Gods Saving Grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes that is exactly what the bible says. We have to place our trust in Christ Jesus. Turn from unbelief to belief.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

We do not save ourselves but God saves those that freely trust in His son. Trust the bible BF not your calvinism .

Since you dont deny it, you teach man is his own saviour by what he does, since Christ didnt die for unbelief.

 

[37818]

Yes. But what a hyper-Calvinist does with that is that they take it to mean that salvation is in reality just us finding out that we are of that elect group. (See above.) All non-Calvinists, and even most Calvinists, believe that you are actually saved when you believe. Some say that you believe as result of being born again or as a result of receiving the gift of faith, but until that time you are lost.

This is where we have to accept our limitations as humans. Election and God's sovereignty are scriptural. But actual faith and repentance is also. In trying to make a theological point we ere if we don't believe both as true and true at the same time. But any appeal to "mystery" is often ridiculed as wishy washy or being weak theologically.

I believe my statement was explicit. How the irrational think, my view will not change their thinking.

 

[Silverhair]

Friend if you reject TULIP then you reject the Gospel of Gods Saving Grace.

I do not reject the gospel or salvation by God through faith in His son. What I reject is your calvinism and it's TULIP which is not the gospel.

Your comments shows the error of your calvinist determinism.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,

 

[taisto]

@taisto you are just refusing to accept what those verses say. While Christ as the propitiation for the whole world made salvation available to all it is only those that actually place their trust in Him for their salvation that will be saved. So no contradiction no conflict and no strawman. It actually is your deterministic view that causes the conflict with the bible.

I am sure you have a different understanding of those verses I posted. You are approaching them from a deterministic point of view. You require God to have written the script and you just act it out whereas I see that God has given man free will. So there in no point in my restating what the bible says since you do not agree with what it says.

No, I am not refusing what the verses say. I am reading the verses according to the context of God, the writer of these verses. I am understanding that God does not contradict himself and understanding that your present interpretation contradicts itself and you have a significant contradiction you refuse to acknowledge.

You are accurate in stating that our view of God is different. I consider your position to diminish the totality of God's authority and place undo authority into the hands of men.

You state that God does not pay for all sins (unbelief is a sin) yet at the same time state that God paid for all sins. You have a dilemma and you refuse to admit it.

 

[Silverhair]

Since you dont deny it, you teach man is his own saviour by what he does, since Christ didnt die for unbelief.

Your responses have show that you fail to see the logical outworking of your view. Your error has been pointed out to you a number of times but to no avail.

 

[taisto]

@taisto,
I assume you are aware, those who do not hold to Limited Atonement, believe Christ gave His soul for His sheep?

Only his soul?
I am aware that unlimited atonement says Christ sacrificed for both the sheep and the goats and paid for all the sins of all mankind.
What you stated is a view of limited atonement. Christ died for his sheep.

 

[taisto]

Yes. But what a hyper-Calvinist does with that is that they take it to mean that salvation is in reality just us finding out that we are of that elect group. (See above.) All non-Calvinists, and even most Calvinists, believe that you are actually saved when you believe. Some say that you believe as result of being born again or as a result of receiving the gift of faith, but until that time you are lost.

This is where we have to accept our limitations as humans. Election and God's sovereignty are scriptural. But actual faith and repentance is also. In trying to make a theological point we ere if we don't believe both as true and true at the same time. But any appeal to "mystery" is often ridiculed as wishy washy or being weak theologically.

Have you read or listened to Ferguson's position on sanctification? There is certainly a work of God and a response of man.

 

[Silverhair]

No, I am not refusing what the verses say. I am reading the verses according to the context of God, the writer of these verses. I am understanding that God does not contradict himself and understanding that your present interpretation contradicts itself and you have a significant contradiction you refuse to acknowledge.

You are accurate in stating that our view of God is different. I consider your position to diminish the totality of God's authority and place undo authority into the hands of men.

You state that God does not pay for all sins (unbelief is a sin) yet at the same time state that God paid for all sins. You have a dilemma and you refuse to admit it.

Christ is the propitiation for all sins, He was the means of appeasement. His death made it possible for God to forgive all those that would trust in His son while those that reject His son would still be under His wrath.

If as you posit Christ paid for all sin including unbelief then if God judged anyone that would be double jeopardy for those the He sent to hell. Plus you have to give a good reason that He sent anyone to hell since, as you say, all sins were paid for. So what were they being judged for?

You are not thinking your position through to the logical end.

 

[taisto]

Christ is the propitiation for all sins, He was the means of appeasement. His death made it possible for God to forgive all those that would trust in His son while those that reject His son would still be under His wrath.

If as you posit Christ paid for all sin including unbelief then if God judged anyone that would be double jeopardy for those the He sent to hell. Plus you have to give a good reason that He sent anyone to hell since, as you say, all sins were paid for. So what were they being judged for?

You are not thinking your position through to the logical end.

You are seeming to make propitiation less than full payment. Now you are saying that it's only a potential payment, not an actual payment. Therefore you are denying 1 John 2:2 as being for all.

As it stands, you have a conundrum and you have yet to resolve it.

 

[37818]

Only his soul?

It had been given to receive the wage of death prior to His physical death per John 19:28.

What you stated is a view of limited atonement. Christ died for his sheep.

Yes. And Biblical unlimited atonement does not deny Christ layed down His soul for the sheep. John 10:15.

 

[taisto]

It had been given to receive the wage of death prior to His physical death per John 19:28.

Yes. And Biblical unlimited atonement does not deny Christ layed down His soul for the sheep. John 10:15.

Unlimited atonement adds all the goats as well.
But Christ laid down more than his soul, he laid down his human body as a sacrifice for sin. He paid it all.

Now, did he pay it all for all humanity? If so, then unbelief has also been paid for. If unbelief is not paid for, then Jesus didn't pay for it all. At best, as Silverhair seems to argue, it is only potentially paid for, but humans are the determiners of whether the potential becomes reality or not. God takes a back seat and provides no determination for the redemption of humankind. Humans are on their own to determine their own destiny.

 

[Silverhair]

You are seeming to make propitiation less than full payment. Now you are saying that it's only a potential payment, not an actual payment. Therefore you are denying 1 John 2:2 as being for all.

As it stands, you have a conundrum and you have yet to resolve it.

You do not seem to know what the word means so I have saved you the time of looking it up:

Propitiation: The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making one propitious. {in biblical theology, God}

Propitious: Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

You are looking at the biblical text through your calvinist lens thus you are coming to a wrong understanding of the text.

 

[37818]

Unlimited atonement adds all the goats as well.

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 4:24, ". . . Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: . . . "

Colossians 1:16-17, ". . . For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. . . ."

he laid down his human body as a sacrifice for sin.

His body was on the cross when He had layed down His soul. It was already completed, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Paid in full. Which was essential for His resurrection. So He said, "It is finished."

 

[Brightfame52]

I do not reject the gospel or salvation by God through faith in His son. What I reject is your calvinism and it's TULIP which is not the gospel.

Your comments shows the error of your calvinist determinism.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,

If you reject the Truths of TULIP you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace !

 

[Brightfame52]

Your responses have show that you fail to see the logical outworking of your view. Your error has been pointed out to you a number of times but to no avail.

You said man is saved by doing something that Christ didn't die for, so you saved yourself by doing what Christ didn't die for.

 

[Silverhair]

Unlimited atonement adds all the goats as well.
But Christ laid down more than his soul, he laid down his human body as a sacrifice for sin. He paid it all.

Now, did he pay it all for all humanity? If so, then unbelief has also been paid for. If unbelief is not paid for, then Jesus didn't pay for it all. At best, as Silverhair seems to argue, it is only potentially paid for, but humans are the determiners of whether the potential becomes reality or not. God takes a back seat and provides no determination for the redemption of humankind. Humans are on their own to determine their own destiny.

You finally got it @taisto God is not the determiner. He has provide the means of salvation.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

But man must choose to follow Him, God does not drag people in to heaven.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Salvation is a gift from God to those that believe
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Silverhair]

If you reject the Truths of TULIP you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace !

You keep saying that but the bible does not agree with your TULIP. I trust the bible not your calvinism.