1 John 2:2

[Silverhair]

If you believe Christ died for everybody, and everybody isnt saved, then you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which is unbelief !

Do you actually read a post before you jump to your silly conclusions.
But you are right the death of Christ saved no one just as the bible says but since you do not seem to actually read or believe the parts of the bible you do read I am not surprised that you hold to your errant calvinist belief. Try reading post # 98 again and this time actually pat attention to what it says.

It is sad really, you have posted a number of posts on the atonement and it is quite obvious that you do not even know what it is or what was and was not accomplished by it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Where? Notice the facts. What is actually taught and what it does not teach.

Where? Everywhere, any place in scripture when pertaining to who Christ died for, its limited to the elect.

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you actually read a post before you jump to your silly conclusions.
But you are right the death of Christ saved no one just as the bible says but since you do not seem to actually read or believe the parts of the bible you do read I am not surprised that you hold to your errant calvinist belief. Try reading post # 98 again and this time actually pat attention to what it says.

It is sad really, you have posted a number of posts on the atonement and it is quite obvious that you do not even know what it is or what was and was not accomplished by it.

If you believe Christ died for everybody, and everybody isn't saved, then you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which is unbelief !

 

[Silverhair]

Where? Everywhere, any place in scripture when pertaining to who Christ died for, its limited to the elect.

Unless you can give some clear contextual verses to backup your claim this is just your opinion.

 

[Silverhair]

If you believe Christ died for everybody, and everybody isn't saved, then you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which is unbelief !

BF you keep saying the same thing over and over and have yet to provide any scripture that supports your position. Scripture that I have provided you just ignore and do not even address.

Your comments to @37818 and myself show that you do not want to engage with the biblical text. Bf the text of the bible is the standard not some man-made theology which it seems you have made your standard.

 

[Brightfame52]

Unless you can give some clear contextual verses to backup your claim this is just your opinion.

Do you want some material a scriptural study on the doctrines of grace, TULIP ? Look up in Tulip Limited atonement.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you keep saying the same thing over and over and have yet to provide any scripture that supports your position. Scripture that I have provided you just ignore and do not even address.

Your comments to @37818 and myself show that you do not want to engage with the biblical text. Bf the text of the bible is the standard not some man-made theology which it seems you have made your standard.

f you believe Christ died for everybody, and everybody isn't saved, then you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which is unbelief !

 

[taisto]

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

Based on these reference points what do you believe about Jesus payment for sin?

Did Jesus pay the debt for all sins, without any exceptions?

 

[taisto]

Who did Christ die for?

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

His death saved no one, we are saved because of our faith the living Christ. Paul made that clear, the resurrection is not just an inconsequential act.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

It was the resurrected Christ that empowered the disciples, not His death on a cross. Are we to preach the cross? YES! But we are not to stop there, it is only half the Gospel. Without the cross we have no resurrection, without the resurrection the cross has no meaning. We only have the story of a Jewish prophet that Rome put to death.

At the cross Jesus paid our sin debt, through His resurrection He overcame death. We can not overlook one without diminishing the other.
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The Gospel message is to important to only present half of it.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

We need the risen Christ or we have no gospel
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Without the risen Christ there would be no Christian church nor Body of believers to withstand the assault of this ungodly world. The resurrection is vital to our understandings and purpose as saints. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the evidence that Christ defeated death. It is the proclamation of Christ's triumph.

I am trying to understand your argument. Here is what I read:
1) Christ's death paid for everyone on the cross.
2) There was a debt that all humans owe and Jesus paid the debt for all humans from Adam to the end of time, with no exception.
3) The death, which paid for all sins, saved no one.
4) Jesus resurrection is evidence that Jesus defeated death.
5) What saves humans is their own, personal, faith in Jesus resurrection from the dead.

Question: Do people have to believe in Jesus payment for their sins or can they just believe he arose from the dead without knowledge or belief in his payment for sin?

Question: Is the sin of unbelief paid for or is it unpaid, if a person doesn't believe Jesus rose from the dead?

 

[Silverhair]

Do you want some material a scriptural study on the doctrines of grace, TULIP ? Look up in Tulip Limited atonement.

So you just avoid dealing with the topic. You have yet to deal with scripture that I posted so the only conclusion that I can draw from that is that you do not have anything to say that refutes what I have said.

 

[Silverhair]

Based on these reference points what do you believe about Jesus payment for sin?

Did Jesus pay the debt for all sins, without any exceptions?

What does the bible say?

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

Does that leave anyone out? Jesus paid the sin debt for all men not just some.

 

[taisto]

What does the bible say?

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

Does that leave anyone out? Jesus paid the sin debt for all men not just some.

So, every sin is paid for in full, without exception, which means the sin of unbelief and no faith is also paid for. Do you agree with that?

As you said, "The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}."

 

[37818]

Question: Do people have to believe in Jesus payment for their sins or can they just believe he arose from the dead without knowledge or belief in his payment for sin?

What does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ? 1 John 5:1

 

[Silverhair]

So, every sin is paid for in full, without exception, which means the sin of unbelief and no faith is also paid for. Do you agree with that?

As you said, "The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}."

If Christ died for the sin of unbelief then faith would be unnecessary for salvation. Which you seem to think is true but the bible disagrees.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

In Scripture, the sin of unbelief is not merely ignorance; rather, it is willfully refusing God’s free gift of forgiveness of sin.
When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.

 

[taisto]

If Christ died for the sin of unbelief then faith would be unnecessary for salvation. Which you seem to think is true but the bible disagrees.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

In Scripture, the sin of unbelief is not merely ignorance; rather, it is willfully refusing God’s free gift of forgiveness of sin.
When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.

It seems you have a logical dilemma. Either God paid for all sins, including unbelief (no faith) or God didn't pay for all sins. You cannot logically have both all sins paid for, but not the sin of unbelief. So one of your propositions must be false.
You quote scripture for both your propositions and since both propositions cannot logically be true, therefore it must be concluded that at least one of your prooftexts does not support your assertion.

The problem lies with you needing to resolve your contradiction or simply ignore your contradiction and keep pressing on with a logical fallacy.

 

[taisto]

What does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ? 1 John 5:1

Perhaps Galatians 1:3-7 provides the answer.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ."

To believe is to be called into Christ by God's grace and be assured that God indeed delivered you from this present evil age.

 

[Silverhair]

I am trying to understand your argument. Here is what I read:
1) Christ's death paid for everyone on the cross.
2) There was a debt that all humans owe and Jesus paid the debt for all humans from Adam to the end of time, with no exception.
3) The death, which paid for all sins, saved no one.
4) Jesus resurrection is evidence that Jesus defeated death.
5) What saves humans is their own, personal, faith in Jesus resurrection from the dead.

Question: Do people have to believe in Jesus payment for their sins or can they just believe he arose from the dead without knowledge or belief in his payment for sin?

Question: Is the sin of unbelief paid for or is it unpaid, if a person doesn't believe Jesus rose from the dead?

Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of all men. His death appeased the wrath of God just as the sacrificed lambs in the OT appeased the wrath of God. That would be why the Baptist call Christ the lamb of God. John 1:29 So to say that Christ paid a sin debt would be wrong just as it would be wrong to say the sacrifices in the OT paid sin debts. His death, as the OT sacrifices, allowed God to pardon and bless the sinner and be consistent in the exercise of His love toward sinners. You misstating a few points so I will correct them for you:
1] Christ's death on the cross was the propitiation for everyone.
2] There was a debt that all humans owe and Jesus was the propitiation for all humans from Adam to the end of time, with no exception.
3] The death,was the propitiation for all sins, but saved no one.
4] Jesus resurrection is evidence that Jesus defeated death. {this you actually got right}
5] What saves humans is God because of their own personal faith in Jesus's resurrection from the dead.

Well I am not sure how you would teach about salvation but I do tell them the whole gospel message: death, burial and resurrection and that it is through faith in the risen Christ that they can be saved.

If Christ's death covered all sins including unbelief then there is no logical reason that anyone needs faith before they are saved.

The only sin God can't forgive is the sin of unbelief.
WHY? The reason that unbelief condemns a person is because FAITH in the Son is what is required for one to be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[taisto]

Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of all men. His death appeased the wrath of God just as the sacrificed lambs in the OT appeased the wrath of God. That would be why the Baptist call Christ the lamb of God. John 1:29 So to say that Christ paid a sin debt would be wrong just as it would be wrong to say the sacrifices in the OT paid sin debts. His death, as the OT sacrifices, allowed God to pardon and bless the sinner and be consistent in the exercise of His love toward sinners. You misstating a few points so I will correct them for you:
1] Christ's death on the cross was the propitiation for everyone.
2] There was a debt that all humans owe and Jesus was the propitiation for all humans from Adam to the end of time, with no exception.
3] The death,was the propitiation for all sins, but saved no one.
4] Jesus resurrection is evidence that Jesus defeated death. {this you actually got right}
5] What saves humans is God because of their own personal faith in Jesus's resurrection from the dead.

Well I am not sure how you would teach about salvation but I do tell them the whole gospel message: death, burial and resurrection and that it is through faith in the risen Christ that they can be saved.

If Christ's death covered all sins including unbelief then there is no logical reason that anyone needs faith before they are saved.

The only sin God can't forgive is the sin of unbelief.
WHY? The reason that unbelief condemns a person is because FAITH in the Son is what is required for one to be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Here is an article that tells us what propitiation means.

You still have a logical fallacy. Either God has paid for all sins as the propitionary sacrifice or God paid for almost all the sins, but not for unbelief.
You have a contradiction in your prooftexts that you are responsible to resolve.

 

[Silverhair]

It seems you have a logical dilemma. Either God paid for all sins, including unbelief (no faith) or God didn't pay for all sins. You cannot logically have both all sins paid for, but not the sin of unbelief. So one of your propositions must be false.
You quote scripture for both your propositions and since both propositions cannot logically be true, therefore it must be concluded that at least one of your prooftexts does not support your assertion.

The problem lies with you needing to resolve your contradiction or simply ignore your contradiction and keep pressing on with a logical fallacy.

Christ provides the opportunity for man to come to God through faith in Him. John 14:6 If man does not believe but stays in his unbelief then logically he will not be saved. John 3:18 That is why we are told He was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. 1John 2:2

Christ died for all sin; that is, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world. But forgiveness only comes to an individual when they repent and believe Mark 1:15. If one does not accept (by faith) the provision of God in Christ, then they are still in their sins. Those who die in unbelief are still under the wrath of God, they are unforgiven sinners. Revelation 21:8.

If you hold to the idea the the sin of unbelief was, to use your words, paid for at the cross then there is no logical necessity for anyone to believe because their unbelief does not condemn them thus we have universalism.

When the Bible says that Christ was the sacrifice for all sin, it does not mean that all sin was automatically forgiven. It simply means that the offering to secure forgiveness for the whole world has been made; John 3:17, Galatians 3:22 whether that offering actually results in the forgiveness of any individual is another matter, because the offering must be accepted by faith. Ephesians 1:13, Romans 5:1 The only way back to God has been prepared by Christ; the question is, will we avail ourselves of the opportunity?

So there is no contradiction when you actually trust what the bible says rather than what some man tells you the bible says.

 

[Silverhair]

Here is an article that tells us what propitiation means.

You still have a logical fallacy. Either God has paid for all sins as the propitionary sacrifice or God paid for almost all the sins, but not for unbelief.
You have a contradiction in your prooftexts that you are responsible to resolve.

Sorry but I do not need to read what a calvinist thinks the bible says. I will trust what the bible does say. You seem to have a real problem doing that as you keep avoiding the truth of scripture.

The problem lays with you, if Christ paid for all sins including sin, as you posit, then we have universalism which is not a biblical view but you seem willing to embrace it.