1 John 2:2

[Brightfame52]

BF since you claim His death saves then you must have clear contextual scripture to back up your claim. The bible says it is trust in the risen Christ, do you disagree with that?

His death saved no one but it made salvation available to all.

I have provided you scripture numerous times, so the conclusion is obvious, you dont believe Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which translates to unbelief !

 

[Brightfame52]

Your interpertation versus no cited word of God. I believe Romans 5:8, ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."

Yes or No, did Jesus Christ death for a person, in and of itself, save that person from their sins ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Asked and answered but you just do not like the answer. {post # 74 & 77}

So if you understand it to mean that Christ bought them with His Blood, and they perish in their sins anyway, then you dont believe that Christs blood in and of itself saves a person from their sins. Correct ?

 

[Silverhair]

It seems like you can go back and forth forever on this. A 5 point Calvinist who believes in particular atonement believes that the atonement really did something for the elect, period. But they are Calvinists and deterministic enough to know that for sure, those elect people will believe, and indeed they must believe. Faith is a conditions in the sense that without it they will not be saved. (But the elect will believe.) The certainty of God's decree does not change the fact that a condition still must be met.

Some Calvinists go so far as to say that the fact that Jesus died for certain people means that they are saved even if they don't believe, or, if they don't go that far they at least believe that when they come to faith, all they were really doing was to realize that they indeed had been saved already. But all Calvinists don't believe that.

Some believe that Christ died potentially for everyone and his death can save anyone who believes. And yet still the Holy Spirit sovereignly calls who He wills. In that group, some believe the call is resistible. There is a wide range of belief as to how this "call" works. Is it resistible? Or is it overwhelming or just a persuasion. Some believe everyone gets this type of grace and some believe God is sovereign as to when and how this comes. Some believe men are left with enough ability to reach out and receive the salvation that is offered with only the Word and the knowledge of the gospel being needed.

I don't think any of the above are guilty of a false gospel.

@DaveXR650 you went through quite a list of options there. But what it all comes down to is, are those options biblical? The bible is quite clear that there is only one way to be saved and that is through faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

You made statements that are close to the bible but it leave out a critical points. It is not His death that saves, it is His life.that provides the opportunity for all to be saved. I agree that the Holy Spirit calls, but where you restrict it the bible says He calls all through conviction of their sin. Some will respond in faith and some will reject the call.

While all roads may lead to Rome only one road will lead to Christ. So no, all those various views cannot be true.

 

[Silverhair]

So if you understand it to mean that Christ bought them with His Blood, and they perish in their sins anyway, then you dont believe that Christs blood in and of itself saves a person from their sins. Correct ?

BF it is obvious that you have a serious comprehension problem. I have answered you silly question before, you just do not like the answer.

But since you seem to think that you are saved by the dead Christ why was it necessary for Him to rise from the grave?

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

Notice the part about denying and bringing on themselves. Although Christ bought them/was their propitiation they still perished because they rejected the living Christ. His blood saved no one His life does.

You can continue to ignore scripture all you want and you can keep asking your silly question over and over but the answer is not going to change.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF it is obvious that you have a serious comprehension problem. I have answered you silly question before, you just do not like the answer.

But since you seem to think that you are saved by the dead Christ why was it necessary for Him to rise from the grave?

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

Notice the part about denying and bringing on themselves. Although Christ bought them/was their propitiation they still perished because they rejected the living Christ. His blood saved no one His life does.

You can continue to ignore scripture all you want and you can keep asking your silly question over and over but the answer is not going to change.

So you dont believe Jesus Christ Death for a persons sins, saved them from their sins, correct ? Just His death and nothing else ? Yes or No

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

But since you seem to think that you are saved by the dead Christ

Dead Christ ? I never said He is dead, now you lying on me. I said you dont believe that He saved them He died for by His death. Hes alive now !

How were these believers in Rom 5:10 reconciled to God ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[DaveXR650]

While all roads may lead to Rome only one road will lead to Christ. So no, all those various views cannot be true.

No. They all can't be right but they all can be within the scope of what true Christians can believe and still have fellowship. I do not believe that a person who describes their coming to Christ as a decision that they made of their own free will is in any way questionable as a true Christian. Nor do I believe that a person who thinks that they would never have been interested at all in Christ if it were not for the fact that the Holy Spirit wrought faith in them and that they were quickened or enlightened before they came to Christ by faith.

 

[Silverhair]

silverhair



Dead Christ ? I never said He is dead, now you lying on me. I said you dont believe that He saved them He died for by His death. Hes alive now !

How were these believers in Rom 5:10 reconciled to God ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

BF you kept saying saved by His blood and as that verse you just posted shows we are not saved by His blood but through faith in the living Christ.

You finally got it BF "saved by His life".

 

[Silverhair]

No. They all can't be right but they all can be within the scope of what true Christians can believe and still have fellowship. I do not believe that a person who describes their coming to Christ as a decision that they made of their own free will is in any way questionable as a true Christian. Nor do I believe that a person who thinks that they would never have been interested at all in Christ if it were not for the fact that the Holy Spirit wrought faith in them and that they were quickened or enlightened before they came to Christ by faith.

Why one believes in Christ Jesus is important but not as important as the fact that they believe in Christ Jesus for their salvation.

What it comes down to is this: does the man believe in Christ Jesus and then is saved or is the man saved and then He believes in Christ Jesus?
I know what the bible says:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...

And this is what a leading calvinist said:
Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.

Now the question is, who are you going to believe?

 

[DaveXR650]

And this is what a leading calvinist said:
Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.

Now the question is, who are you going to believe?

There is an attempt to try to describe the theology of what happens when a person gets saved. And then there is the fact that on our part belief is how we connect to this salvation. You may say it differently but the overall truth is the same. Edwards talked about faith being imparted immediately by a divine and supernatural light. In another place he said that Christ has died and everything is waiting for you to come by faith. There are going to be places where our human minds can't do this at once so we have to say both things. And because we are saying two things, one will be said first and one second.
You don't want to minimize the fact that you have to believe. And you don't want to go with the idea that belief is totally an action of your own mind or something that you have conjured up on your own, to use at your convenience. Calvinists like Owen warned people not to make light of a calling or conviction because this can be sovereignly withdrawn and you will never be saved. Yet Owen said in other places something very similar to Boettner. So what do you make of those seeming inconsistencies? I don't think they can or really even should be resolved.

"Because" is a funny word. You definitely believe in order to be saved. That is your actual linking to or receiving the benefits of salvation. So it is legitimately a "condition" for salvation. But your belief is not the reason you were saved. That is due to the work of Christ so in that sense you are not saved "because" you believed.

I read a lot of Calvinists who were pastors and teachers as well as theologians and I don't find them to be as rigid in their theology when looked at practically as we see some people argue. I know that's not very satisfying in a theological debate setting but it is something to keep in mind, especially when debate heads toward calling each other false teachers or heretics. Although in fairness, the old guys didn't seem to have a problem calling each other names so I guess go ahead.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you kept saying saved by His blood and as that verse you just posted shows we are not saved by His blood but through faith in the living Christ.

You finally got it BF "saved by His life".

The Christ of scripture died and rose again, His resurrection was proof that He Justified them He died for, which you deny. Thats unbelief.

 

[Silverhair]

There is an attempt to try to describe the theology of what happens when a person gets saved. And then there is the fact that on our part belief is how we connect to this salvation. You may say it differently but the overall truth is the same. Edwards talked about faith being imparted immediately by a divine and supernatural light. In another place he said that Christ has died and everything is waiting for you to come by faith. There are going to be places where our human minds can't do this at once so we have to say both things. And because we are saying two things, one will be said first and one second.
You don't want to minimize the fact that you have to believe. And you don't want to go with the idea that belief is totally an action of your own mind or something that you have conjured up on your own, to use at your convenience. Calvinists like Owen warned people not to make light of a calling or conviction because this can be sovereignly withdrawn and you will never be saved. Yet Owen said in other places something very similar to Boettner. So what do you make of those seeming inconsistencies? I don't think they can or really even should be resolved.

"Because" is a funny word. You definitely believe in order to be saved. That is your actual linking to or receiving the benefits of salvation. So it is legitimately a "condition" for salvation. But your belief is not the reason you were saved. That is due to the work of Christ so in that sense you are not saved "because" you believed.

I read a lot of Calvinists who were pastors and teachers as well as theologians and I don't find them to be as rigid in their theology when looked at practically as we see some people argue. I know that's not very satisfying in a theological debate setting but it is something to keep in mind, especially when debate heads toward calling each other false teachers or heretics. Although in fairness, the old guys didn't seem to have a problem calling each other names so I guess go ahead.

@DaveXR650 I understand what you are saying and I actually agree with you for the most part. I think if you look over my posts you will see that I try to stick to what the scriptures say. I just have a real problem with various people when they misuse the text by reading into it what they want to find rather than just trusting what the text says.

Dave you said and I agree that in a technical sense we saved by the work of Christ, but if one does not trust in the risen Son it does not matter what Christ did as you will still not be saved. So we are saved because we believe, at least that is what the bible says anyway. If it only took the work of Christ for one to be saved then we would have universal salvation since He was the propitiation for the whole world.

I have to agree with Adrian Rogers when he said: "I’m willing to compromise about many things, but not the Word of God." My dad always said "pick the hill your willing to die on" this just happens to be my hill.

 

[Silverhair]

The Christ of scripture died and rose again, His resurrection was proof that He Justified them He died for, which you deny. Thats unbelief.

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}. So by your logic you, BF, would have to be a universalist as you place no requirement on the person trusting in the risen Christ Jesus for their salvation although the bible does just that. {Joh 3:16, Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10}

Note what the bible says in regard to justification, notice the qualifier.
Rom_3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You are right on one thing, I do not believe that you really understand scripture. You seem to be trusting in what men have told you the bible says rather than actually trusting the bible itself.

 

[Brightfame52]

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}. So by your logic you, BF, would have to be a universalist as you place no requirement on the person trusting in the risen Christ Jesus for their salvation although the bible does just that. {Joh 3:16, Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10}

Note what the bible says in regard to justification, notice the qualifier.
Rom_3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You are right on one thing, I do not believe that you really understand scripture. You seem to be trusting in what men have told you the bible says rather than actually trusting the bible itself.

So then you are of those who dont believe the death of Christ in and of itself saved them for whom He died, thats unbelief !

 

[Silverhair]

So then you are of those who dont believe the death of Christ in and of itself saved them for whom He died, thats unbelief !

Read your bible BF. By your own comment "Christ in and of itself saved them for whom He died" you are proclaiming universalism whether you understand that or not. Who did Christ die for?

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

BF you are so focused on protecting your calvinism that you overlook the rest of the bible. Christ came so that man could be saved through Him.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

His death saved no one, we are saved because of our faith the living Christ. Paul made that clear, the resurrection is not just an inconsequential act.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

It was the resurrected Christ that empowered the disciples, not His death on a cross. Are we to preach the cross? YES! But we are not to stop there, it is only half the Gospel. Without the cross we have no resurrection, without the resurrection the cross has no meaning. We only have the story of a Jewish prophet that Rome put to death.

At the cross Jesus paid our sin debt, through His resurrection He overcame death. We can not overlook one without diminishing the other.
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The Gospel message is to important to only present half of it.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

We need the risen Christ or we have no gospel
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Without the risen Christ there would be no Christian church nor Body of believers to withstand the assault of this ungodly world. The resurrection is vital to our understandings and purpose as saints. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the evidence that Christ defeated death. It is the proclamation of Christ's triumph.

 

[37818]

Yes or No, did Jesus Christ death for a person, in and of itself, save that person from their sins ?

Are you arguing for universalism? 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

 

[Brightfame52]

Read your bible BF. By your own comment "Christ in and of itself saved them for whom He died" you are proclaiming universalism whether you understand that or not. Who did Christ die for?

The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn_2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1Ti_2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Heb_2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Rom_5:6}, for sinners {Rom_5:8}.

BF you are so focused on protecting your calvinism that you overlook the rest of the bible. Christ came so that man could be saved through Him.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

His death saved no one, we are saved because of our faith the living Christ. Paul made that clear, the resurrection is not just an inconsequential act.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

It was the resurrected Christ that empowered the disciples, not His death on a cross. Are we to preach the cross? YES! But we are not to stop there, it is only half the Gospel. Without the cross we have no resurrection, without the resurrection the cross has no meaning. We only have the story of a Jewish prophet that Rome put to death.

At the cross Jesus paid our sin debt, through His resurrection He overcame death. We can not overlook one without diminishing the other.
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The Gospel message is to important to only present half of it.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

We need the risen Christ or we have no gospel
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Without the risen Christ there would be no Christian church nor Body of believers to withstand the assault of this ungodly world. The resurrection is vital to our understandings and purpose as saints. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the evidence that Christ defeated death. It is the proclamation of Christ's triumph.

If you believe Christ died for everybody, and everybody isnt saved, then you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, which is unbelief !

 

[Brightfame52]

Are you arguing for universalism? 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

No, scripture teaches limited atonement. So its quite clear to me that you dont believe Christs death in and of itself saved anyone, thats not faith, thats unbelief !

 

[37818]

No, scripture teaches limited atonement.

Where? Notice the facts. What is actually taught and what it does not teach.