The text does read what it reads. It just doesn't say what you interpret it to say. You are determined to live in a contradiction and that is a place where you will live alone.
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1 John 5:10-11.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Only those that are "in Christ" are elect so logically Eph 1:4 can not be referring to the elect as calvinists would have it. Does God know who will freely trust in His son YES does His knowing cause them to trust in His son NO.
Look at the context Eph 1:1-14 Paul is talking about those that have believed in Christ and the spiritual blessings they have received. Further we see that these same blessings are to be had by all those that through faith are placed in Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Context will clear up your misunderstanding. We are only chosen in Christ if and when we believe in Christ, not before. If you are not in Christ you are not elect.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin you are reading your calvinism into the text of the bible. If the bible were your authority then you would not make so many errors. You keep forgetting that no one is elect {saved} until they are in Christ Jesus. You and your calvinistic view have people saved before they are even born.
Again, you are stuck in an infinite loop that you cannot get out of simply because you obstinately will not accept what the bible says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God has chosen to save those that are in Christ Jesus and one is only in Christ Jesus through faith. Only those that are in Christ are the elect. Since no one was in Christ Jesus before creation your calvinist idea of elect before the foundation of the world does not hold water.
Actually to prove your point you would need a verse that shows Salvific election without faith.
Let mw try to explain this as simply as I can.
If I choose a cake to eat, I have not already eaten it, but I have decided that I shall eat it.
Is that clear? Can you understand that concept?
If you can understand it, apply it to God's election and salvation. God's elect are chosen for salvation, but they are not saved until they believe.
...and they do not believe until God causes them to believe by graciously making them alive with Christ. (ie God causes them to be born again, as 1 John 5 tells us.)
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I can see why this is difficult to sort out. Everything we do as humans is going to appear to us as an idea we came up with and a decision we took. That is how we are made and it is not incorrect. If you read Owen on the work of the Holy Spirit and on the process of apostacy you find that Owen believed this and yet he was a Calvinist. He was big on specific warnings and exhortations to people to do this or that or avoid this or that because that would determine eternal destiny. He said that the best evidence of being elect is your attitude toward Christ and your actions. That is also why we can view our Christian walk as a life or death struggle against the world, the flesh and the Devil and yet believe in election. That's why I say the older theologians seemed to be better able to do this than we do nowadays. They could believe that THEY were personally responsible to repent of their sins and come to Christ and then live a Christian life and at the same time attribute ALL of this to the work of the Holy Spirit.
37818
Well-Known Member
You are wrong.
One word is a singular act of God. And the other word is plural and refers to those who are the elect.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There are other things implied in each case of, "Salvation",
anywhere it is attributed to a lost soul, in The Bible.
King James Bible
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
There is just One Way of Salvation.
...
reference: 1 John 5:10-11.
"Sin" is a Spiritual Reality that must be dealt with.
"Calvinists" see sin as rendering the lost sinner, "dead", i.e., "dead spiritually",
with no ability, whatsoever, to relate, "Spiritually", to their Creator God, Who is, "Spirit".
That is the "debate".
There is One Way of Salvation.
God Elects, Unconditionally.
The Lord, God Jesus Died for their sins, specifically.
The Holy Spirit and the Divine Essence of The Triune Godhead Draws the sinner,
through the Preaching of the Word of God, to CONVICT, and Effectually Call,
by Granting Repentance Toward God and a New Agreement with Him and His Word,
as well as, the Twin Doctrine, Faith, to Believe in the Power of Salvation, The Gospel.
Where each of these Elements of God's Eternal Plan of Salvation are not explicitly stated,
they are implied, as in the O.P.
anywhere it is attributed to a lost soul, in The Bible.
King James Bible
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
There is just One Way of Salvation.
...
reference: 1 John 5:10-11.
"Sin" is a Spiritual Reality that must be dealt with.
"Calvinists" see sin as rendering the lost sinner, "dead", i.e., "dead spiritually",
with no ability, whatsoever, to relate, "Spiritually", to their Creator God, Who is, "Spirit".
That is the "debate".
There is One Way of Salvation.
God Elects, Unconditionally.
The Lord, God Jesus Died for their sins, specifically.
The Holy Spirit and the Divine Essence of The Triune Godhead Draws the sinner,
through the Preaching of the Word of God, to CONVICT, and Effectually Call,
by Granting Repentance Toward God and a New Agreement with Him and His Word,
as well as, the Twin Doctrine, Faith, to Believe in the Power of Salvation, The Gospel.
Where each of these Elements of God's Eternal Plan of Salvation are not explicitly stated,
they are implied, as in the O.P.
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Look at the two passages. The first is talking about tribulation and the perseverance of the elect through the tribulation.
The second is talking about God's election, adoption, choosing, and predestination of His children before the foundation of the world.
*Mark 13:19-23*
For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
*Ephesians 1:3-6*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
How you ever picked these two passages to create your infinite loop of confusion, I am not sure. Moreso that you picked two Greek words and create a different timeline for choosing and election from those isolated words is ultimately an evidence of your really poor hermeneutics. You have created an error filled theology from these two isolated passages and imagined yourself to have a coherent argument.
You are obviously wrong and are, at this point, simply being obstinate. That is your right. As for me, I have pointed out your error and I see no value in addressing you any further here.
May God enlighten the eyes of your heart.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
See if you can understand this, one is only elect when they are in Christ. Does God know who will freely trust in Christ, YES. He is omniscient after all. God knowing who will trust is not the same as God causing them to believe which is what your calvinist theology posits.
Your whole theology is based upon the idea that God had determined all those that will reject Christ and spend eternity in hell, but at the same time you say they chose to do so. But are you not the ones that say God determines all things because if He didn't then He would not be sovereign? Cavinism is not very consistent is it?
37818
Well-Known Member
The popular interpretations. The choosing is explicitly the teaching.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Within the topic of, "How does God Save a soul", The New Birth, with the CONVICTION,
that the lost soul must "be lost", before they can, "be Saved",
i.e., brought to an understanding that they are condemned.
Then, an individual will have The Holy Spirit Born and Regenerated into their soul,
where The Divine Nature can decern other specifics Revealed by God, in His Word
(such as Unconditional Election.)
I. THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH
1. THE FACT OF ITS NECESSITY
Jesus left no doubt as to the indispensable necessity of the new birth as a
prerequisite to entrance into God's kingdom when He said to Nicodemus:
"Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God"(John 3:5).
2. REASONS FOR ITS NECESSITY
The new birth is necessary because-
(1) God's spiritual blessings are for His spiritual children only.
Rom. 8:16,17. Man by nature is not a spiritual child of God, though he is a
child naturally. Adam is called "the son of God" Luke 3:28). This sonship
was based, not on birth, nor on mere creation, but on the likeness that
inhered in the image of God in man.
That image was two-fold. Adam had a moral or spiritual likeness to God in
holiness. He had a natural likeness to God in personality.
For further discussion of these see chapter on "The Original State and Fall of Man." When man fell he lost the moral or spiritual likeness to God, and thus ceased to be a spiritual child of God. But he did not lose his personality, did not fall to the level of a brute, and thus he retained a natural basis of sonship. This explains Acts 17:28,29. Spiritually and morally man is a child of the Devil (John 8:44; 1 John 3:10), because he bears a spiritual and moral likeness to the Devil.
Thus he must be born again to inherit God's spiritual blessings, because these, as Rom. 8:16,17 clearly shows, are for none except His spiritual children.
(2) Man is spiritually dead and God's kingdom both here and hereafter is spiritual in nature. Rom. 5:12; Eph 2:1; Col. 2:13; 1 John 3:14.
The statement that man is spiritually dead means that man is, because of sin, devoid of divine spirit life; although he has natural spirit life. His spirit has lost all real affinity for God. He has no affection for God or spiritual things (Rom. 8:7,8).
He has no ability in spiritual things (Jer. 13:23; John 6:65). Hence there is nothing in man's nature that qualifies him for citizenship in a spiritual kingdom. One that is dead spiritually can no more inhabit a spiritual kingdom than one that is dead physically can inhabit a physical kingdom. Thus man must be born anew in order to enter God's kingdom.
(3) Being in God's kingdom implies submission to the rule of God
and man by nature is at enmity with God. Rom. 8:7,8.
God's kingdom is His rule over the hearts and lives of His saints.
To enter His kingdom, therefore, is to submit to His rule.
But man by nature cannot do that because he is at enmity against God.
The new birth is necessary in order that this enmity may be overcome.
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf
Chapter 14 The Essential Elements of Human Nature
Chapter 15 The Moral Nature of Man
Chapter 16 The Original State and Fall of Man
Chapter 17 The Doctrine of Sin
Chapter 18 Human Responsibility
Chapter 19 The Free Agency of Man
Chapter 20 The Doctrine of Election
Chapter 21 The Doctrine of The Atonement
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls
Chapter 23 The New Birth
Chapter 24 The Doctrine of Conversion
Chapter 25 Repentance and Faith
Chapter 26 The Doctrine of Justification
Chapter 27 The Doctrine of Sanctification
Chapter 28 The Three Tenses of Salvation
Chapter 29 The Perseverance and Preservation of the Saved
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unprofitable
Active Member
How does God know who will believe his Son?
Who was his counsel that revealed it unto him?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Omniscience
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
from Unconditional Election – compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon |
Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind
"The Wicked Made specially for Destruction, to glorify God’s wrath and justice.
Job 21:30, “That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction?
They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.”
khaw-sak’ • a primitive root; TWOT – 765; v • AV – spare 8, keep back 3, withhold 3, refrain 3, asswage 2, reserved 2, hold back 1, variant 1, forbear 1, hindereth 1, kept 1, punished 1, withholdeth 1; 28 • 1) to withhold, restrain, hold back, keep in check, refrain 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to withhold, keep back, keep for oneself, keep from, hold in check, refrain, spare, reserve 1a2) to restrain, check 1b) (Niphal) to assuage, be spared
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself:
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
2 Peter 2:9, “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations,
and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”
2 Peter 2:17, “These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest;
to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.”
Jude v. 13, “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame;
wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
τηρέω tēréō; {tay-reh’-o} • from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT – 8:140,1174; v • AV – keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75 • 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something • For Synonyms see entry 5874
Romans 9:21-23, “Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory, ”
2 Tim. 2:20, “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,
but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor.”
37818
Well-Known Member
1 John 5:9-10, ". . . this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: . . ."
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Thanks Alan you just proved what I have been saying about the calvinist view. The bible says we have to make a choice trust in or reject the Son. That is a condition
Joh 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Act 16:30 Then he brought them outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
So let me state this clearly, it does not matter what Dr. C. Matthew McMahon or anyone else says salvation is not "unconditional". It is a construct that calvinism requires for their errant theology.
Calvinism keeps attacking the character of God by suggesting that He is responsible for all those that are in hell. It seem to me that for the calvinist the bible is not their authority.
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