10 Misconceptions of the RCC

[OldRegular]

I haven't dodged anything. To enter the Catholic Church all I had to do was affirm the Apostles Creed. And it is without error.

So you believe Jesus Christ went to hell? You have that in common with the Word of Faith people!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So you believe Jesus Christ went to hell? You have that in common with the Word of Faith people!

Well, the problem is your lack of understanding that the original Creed was written in Greek. And the place of the dead is translated into english as hell. It therefore is misunderstood with all the english conotations of hell. But it means he went to the place of the dead. In fact some recitations of that creed says he decended to the dead. So yes I believe he decended to the dead. And so should all people of faith. So I guess you don't believe he died but like the gnostics only seemed to die. Well that isn't Christian dogma.

 

[OldRegular]

Following is some information I developed for a study of the Book of Revelation some years back. I believe it shows what happens when the Church takes the world to its bosom! It is pertinent to this thread on Roman Catholicism. Also, there is an increasing tendency among some Baptist and Protestant Churches of today to do just that, take the world to its bosom!

With the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan has been defeated. Yet God in His sovereign purpose has allowed Satan to continue for awhile. Unable to destroy the Church Satan has turned his hate upon the individual Saints of God.

The first major persecutor of the Church and individual Christians was the Roman Empire. Severe persecution began under Nero, continued under Domitian [81-96 AD], Trajan [98-117 AD], and intermittently thereafter until the time of Constantine. The most severe persecution of the Church began under the reign of Diocletian in 303 AD and lasted until 311 AD.[History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff, Volume II, Chapter 2.] Schaff [Volume 2, page 68] describes one particular act of persecution under Diocletian in which one can readily see the fulfillment of John’s prophecy regarding those who do not wear the mark of the beast [Revelation 13:17], as follows:

The persecution raged longest and most fiercely in the East under the rule of Galerius and his barbarous nephew Maximin Daza, who was intrusted by Diocletian before his retirement with the dignity of Caesar and the extreme command of Egypt and Syria. He issued in autumn, 308, a fifth edict of persecution, which commanded that all males with their wives and servants, and even their children, should sacrifice and actually taste the accursed offerings, and that all provisions in the markets should be sprinkled with sacrificial wine. This monstrous law introduced a reign of terror for two years, and left the Christians no alternative but apostasy or starvation.

The great persecution initiated during the reign of Diocletian ended with the issuance of an edict of toleration by Galerius, who was the real author of the persecution, in 311 AD shortly before his death. A second edict of toleration was issued by Constantine in 313 AD. The pagan empire of Rome had, for all practical purposes, been overcome by the spread of the gospel. That which had been revealed to Daniel [Daniel 7] had come to pass. Yet in that triumph of Christianity the seeds of what many believe to be a new manifestation of the beast were sown. Schaff writes [Volume 2, page 73]:

With Constantine, therefore, the last of the heathen, the first of the Christian, emperors, a new period begins. The church ascends the throne of the Caesars under the banner of the once despised, now honored and triumphant cross, and gives new vigor and lustre to the hoary empire of Rome.[emphasis added]

Schaff further writes [Volume 3, page 12]:

Constantine, the first Christian Caesar, the founder of Constantinople and the Byzantine empire, and one of the most gifted, energetic, and successful of the Roman emperors, was the first representative of the imposing idea of a Christian theocracy, or of that system of policy which assumes all subjects to be Christians, connects civil and religious rights, and regards church and state as the two arms of one and the same divine government on earth. This idea was more fully developed by his successors, it animated the whole middle age, and is yet working under various forms in these latest times; though it has never been fully realized, whether in the Byzantine, the German, or the Russian empire, the Roman church-state the Calvinistic republic of Geneva, or the early Puritanic colonies of New England. At the same time, however, Constantine stands also as the type of an undiscriminating and harmful conjunction of Christianity with politics, of the holy symbol of peace with the horrors of war, of the spiritual interests of the kingdom of heaven with the earthly interests of the state.

Although Schaff refers to Constantine as the first Christian Caesar it is not certain from a study of his life that he was a ‘true believer’. Constantine refused baptism until shortly before his death so that he might “secure all the benefit of baptism as a complete expiation of past sins” [Schaff, Volume 3, page 11ff].

Jesus Christ, standing before Pilate, who represented the power of pagan Rome, declared, My kingdom is not of this world [John 18:36]. Yet with the fall of pagan Rome, as Schaff writes, the church ascends the throne of the Caesars. Thus a significant part of Christianity entered into an unholy alliance with the world contrary to the teaching of the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. This alliance would in time lead to the establishment of Roman Catholicism and the Holy Roman Empire, with its ‘dark ages’.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was just making sure you could read what I said. There is little to nohing in the Roman Catholic Communion of today that was instituted by Jesus Christ.

I disagree with you entirely and if you actually studied history you would see some errors to some of the assumptions you have made. For instance look what you posted.

It took ~1700 years from Constantine to Vatican II and what has the RCC become.? Not a Church of Jesus Christ but an apostate organization inspired by ROME!

the assumption of this comment is that Constantine started the Catholic Church. In fact he did not. All he did was create a document for toleration of Christians within the empire. He did not make it the "official religion." When he was finally baptised on his bed he was baptised by an Arian priest. The council of nicea came together because Christians were fighting in the streets about what to believe with regard to Jesus. The Emperor Constantine wanted peace in his empire so he told the bishops to settle the issue which they did at Nicea. And as I've said before Ignatius shows the view as early as 100 AD that Christians considered themselves to be universal or Catholic. Clements writings as early as 90 Ad the higharchy of the Church.

Another problem of the RCC. They confuse the "Universal Church" with Roman Catholicism!

Nope it is the same church that held in perpituity the deposit of Faith to this day.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't think I did but I will go through each point you made here.


Yes. I agree.

I would agree with your first sentence. Your second sentence is wrong. Let me flush out what we are talking about and because you lump a lot of consepts into one word I will use the appropriate words to get at the actual meaning. So when you say I say this is true but more specifically Justified. Catholics do teach this so you are wrong about that. Works conform us and "save" us only in the sense that they conform us into the likeness of Christ not that they justify us by themselves. They do not. You cannot work to make God owe you salvation (Rom 4) but you can be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 12). However, Faith does justify. Specificially what kind of faith the faith that acts in love. But all this is by the grace of God without which you couldn't even get to faith.


No, here you are wrong. James doesn't agree with you. True Biblical Christianity is the only religion that God reaches down to us to bring us up to him. All others strive to climb their way up to God without him.


Yes. and might I add work alone. To appease God. Works for Catholics is a result of Grace given by Faith. Its cooperating with what God wants you to do because you love him. Not to make God owe us salvation.

Who will then act on that faith. Those who do not act on that faith are not saved. Just ask Jesus and James.
yes I agree.

Nope this is just false. You never understood Catholicism even when you were Catholic. 1 Cor 15:29 says differently. Just because Catholics have statues and pictures reminding them of Gospel events doesn't mean we worship statues and pictures. You need to study the council of Nicea 787.
I don't know if you know anything about the incense but you don't sprinkle it. And I don't know if you know anything about the bible but the Jews used incense and the book of Revelations refers to incense. Strangely not occultic.
that is a made up word and doesn't represent what we believe. I already spoke to this. Oh? So you are saying that God didn't say So you are also saying that God didn't say: Then take this out of your bible because according to you it couldn't be the same God who said Sorry. Either you have the wrong Bible or you are just wrong about this. We see that all the things that you considered "pagan" regarding Catholicism actually find their origin in God and the bible. So it seems you are just wrong about this paganism thing.

Simple question!

Dou hold that you have already been freely justified before God solely due to the Death of jesus for your sins, and received him by faith? That NOTHING else counts towards geting saved by God?

 

[Alive in Christ]

This should make abundently clear the the damdable heresies the Catholic cultic entity
is inflicting on its victims.

This is strait from the Concil of Trent

In each section the heresy is articulated, followed by the truth.


Heresy...

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."


Truth....

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin," (Rom. 3:20).
B."Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
C."Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
D."For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
E."Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
F."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).
G."Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).

Heresy...

2.CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

Truth......

A."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name," (John 1:12).
B."Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
C.'For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
D."Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples: for this he did once, when he offered up himself," (Heb. 7:25-27).
E."For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day," (2 Tim. 1:12).

Heresy.....

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."


Truth....

."For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
B."Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).


Heresy....

4.Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."

Truth...

."He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," (John 3:36).
B."And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day," (John 6:40).
C."And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand," (John 10:28).
D."That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord," (Rom. 5:21).
E."They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us," (1 John 2:19).
F."These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God," (1 John 5:13).


Heresy...5.Canon 24:

"If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Truth...

A."O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
B."Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal. 5:1-3).

Heresy.....

Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."


Truth...

A."Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
B."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross," (Col. 2:13-14).
Heresy....

Herese...7.Canon 33: ....

"If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
Heresy...A.This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Following is some information I developed for a study of the Book of Revelation some years back. I believe it shows what happens when the Church takes the world to its bosom! It is pertinent to this thread on Roman Catholicism. Also, there is an increasing tendency among some Baptist and Protestant Churches of today to do just that, take the world to its bosom!

Lets take a look at it.

With the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan has been defeated. Yet God in His sovereign purpose has allowed Satan to continue for awhile. Unable to destroy the Church Satan has turned his hate upon the individual Saints of God.

Ok. So far so good.

The first major persecutor of the Church and individual Christians was the Roman Empire.

I would say it was the Jews particularily the pharisees. The New Testament speaks of this persecution of which Paul himself took part before his conversion.

Severe persecution began under Nero, continued under Domitian [81-96 AD], Trajan [98-117 AD], and intermittently thereafter

Yes but an even worse persecution happened under Diocletian and Galerius. It is known as the Great Persecution. The assent to the throne by Constantine and the Edict of Milan in 313 brought that to an end.

until the time of Constantine.

Yes for the most part.

The most severe persecution of the Church began under the reign of Diocletian in 303 AD and lasted until 311 AD.[History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff, Volume II, Chapter 2.] Schaff [Volume 2, page 68] describes one particular act of persecution under Diocletian in which one can readily see the fulfillment of John’s

and here I thought you missed it but yes.

prophecy regarding those who do not wear the mark of the beast [Revelation 13:17], as follows:


Quote:
The persecution raged longest and most fiercely in the East under the rule of Galerius and his barbarous nephew Maximin Daza, who was intrusted by Diocletian before his retirement with the dignity of Caesar and the extreme command of Egypt and Syria. He issued in autumn, 308, a fifth edict of persecution, which commanded that all males with their wives and servants, and even their children, should sacrifice and actually taste the accursed offerings, and that all provisions in the markets should be sprinkled with sacrificial wine. This monstrous law introduced a reign of terror for two years, and left the Christians no alternative but apostasy or starvation.

Yes many Catholics today refer to this as fulfillment of John's prophesy. However there are others holding out for a greater Anti-Christ fulfillment.

The great persecution initiated during the reign of Diocletian ended with the issuance of an edict of toleration by Galerius, who was the real author of the persecution, in 311 AD shortly before his death. A second edict of toleration was issued by Constantine in 313 AD.

Yes ok.

The pagan empire of Rome had, for all practical purposes, been overcome by the spread of the gospel. That which had been revealed to Daniel [Daniel 7] had come to pass. Yet in that triumph of Christianity the seeds of what many believe to be a new manifestation of the beast were sown. Schaff writes [Volume 2, page 73]:

I'm not sure what is meant in this passage but there were many Christians in the Empire at this time.

With Constantine, therefore, the last of the heathen, the first of the Christian, emperors, a new period begins.

Its still up in the air on how Christian Constantine was also there was Julian the Apostate Emperor who was pagan after Constantine. But certainly things changed for Christians unders Constantine.

The church ascends the throne of the Caesars under the banner of the once despised, now honored and triumphant cross, and gives new vigor and lustre to the hoary empire of Rome.[emphasis added] Schaff further writes [Volume 3, page 12]:

Yes somewhat but not all the Christian Emperors were in step with the Church like Theodosius whose mother was Arian and tried to take two Orthdox Churches for the Arians in Milan which Ambrose denied him. So the Clergy and the Government still were at odds at times.

Quote:
Constantine, the first Christian Caesar, the founder of Constantinople and the Byzantine empire, and one of the most gifted, energetic, and successful of the Roman emperors, was the first representative of the imposing idea of a Christian theocracy, or of that system of policy which assumes all subjects to be Christians, connects civil and religious rights, and regards church and state as the two arms of one and the same divine government on earth.though it has never been fully realized

This isn't quite correct. Certainly Constantine believed God gave him the role of emperor but connecting religious leaders and civil leaders to the extend intended by this quote of yours is inacurate.

Constantine showed equal favour to both religious...he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights. The one thing he did was to suppress divination and magic; this the heathen emperors had also at times sought to do. Thus, in 320, the emperor forbade the diviners or haruspices to enter a private house under pain of death. Whoever by entreaty or promise of payment persuaded a haruspex to break this law, that man's property should be confiscated and he himself should be burned to death....Constantine himself preferred the company of Christian bishops to that of pagan priests. The emperor frequently invited the bishops to court, gave them the use of the imperial postal service, invited them to his table, called them his brothers...While he chose bishops for his counsellors, they, on the other hand, often requested his intervention...He opposed Athanasius because he was led to believe that Athanasius desired to detain the corn-ships which were intended for Constantinople; Constantine's alarm can be understood when we bear in mind how powerful the patriarchs eventually became - Herbermann, C., & Grupp, G. (1908). Constantine the Great.

so religious leaders and the Emperor were not as closely joined as your historian suggests.

This idea was more fully developed by his successors, it animated the whole middle age, and is yet working under various forms in these latest times;

This is also inaccurate. When the empire fell the people turned to the Clergy because

at a time when the continual ravages of the barbarians were introducing disorder into all conditions of life, and the rules of morality were being seriously violated...when Northern Italy had been devastated by Attila, Leo by a personal encounter with the King of the Huns prevented him from marching upon Rome. At the emperor's wish, Leo, accompanied by the Consul Avienus and the Prefect Trigetius, went in 452 to Upper Italy, and met Attila at Mincio in the vicinity of Mantua, obtaining from him the promise that he would withdraw from Italy and negotiate peace with the emperor...in 455 the city was captured by the Vandals under Genseric, although for a fortnight the town had been plundered, Leo's intercession obtained a promise that the city should not be injured and that the lives of the inhabitants should be spared... - Kirsch, Johann Peter. "Pope St. Leo I (the Great)

because of this more and more people looked to the clergy for governance for civil matters. It wasn't an idea that became full blown in the middle ages.

Although Schaff refers to Constantine as the first Christian Caesar it is not certain from a study of his life that he was a ‘true believer’. Constantine refused baptism until shortly before his death so that he might “secure all the benefit of baptism as a complete expiation of past sins” [Schaff, Volume 3, page 11ff].

Agreed.

Jesus Christ, standing before Pilate, who represented the power of pagan Rome, declared, My kingdom is not of this world [John 18:36]. Yet with the fall of pagan Rome, as Schaff writes, the church ascends the throne of the Caesars

This isn't true. Certainly the Church gained in civil influence but there was always tension between the Church and civil authorities.

Thus a significant part of Christianity entered into an unholy alliance with the world contrary to the teaching of the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. This alliance would in time lead to the establishment of Roman Catholicism and the Holy Roman Empire, with its ‘dark ages’.

The Dark ages were dark because of the fall of the Roman Empire and lack of learning during that time the only thing that kept things going positively was the Roman Catholic Church. And Catholics Gentiled European pegans and converted them to Christianity. Who by the way created the university systems to educate backward Europeans.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Simple question!

Dou hold that you have already been freely justified before God solely due to the Death of jesus for your sins, and received him by faith? That NOTHING else counts towards geting saved by God?

I don't speak Elizabethan English. Nor do I speak Jamesian English. I speak American! So are you asking whether or not I'm freely Justified by God? See that Jesus paid the price for my justification I don't believe it is free. But am I Justified by my Faith? Yes and I can show you that I have faith by my works. Hows that?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This should make abundently clear the the damdable heresies the Catholic cultic entity
is inflicting on its victims.

This is strait from the Concil of Trent

You are another one who jumps into a middle of a text with out the context. You didn't read the sessions either now did you?

In each section the heresy is articulated, followed by the truth.


Heresy...

Ok lets see if you can prove that.

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Huh? and doesn't james say

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

Looks like you're spouting heresy. Let me ask you a question once someone preached the gospel to you did you cooperate with God by deciding to believe it was true? If so then you agree with this canon. That is truth.

2.CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified

Yeah, I just had this discussion with DHK. He said faith was more than confidence. Though he never said anything else other than Confidence. But what does James say again?

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

What does Paul say?

I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect

and again

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."

This is reitteration. Same ole same ole. Because this is answered with my comments on the previous canons.
Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

4.Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial

So what you are basically telling me is that you have never sinned since your baptism or reciept of Faith? Do you have a wife we can speak to? I can certainly say you've sinned even those sins that don't lead to death.

5

.Canon 24:

"If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

So you don't believe the more you act like Jesus Christ the more you become like him? You don't believe that you are to live a sanctified life? Hmmm. Paul must have been out of his mind when he said

I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,

or when he said

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

or

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Paul didn't know what he was speaking about I guess when he said.

each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

7.Canon 33: ....

"If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
Heresy...A.This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.

I dont' think you know what this is saying. Its basically saying that if anyone says the teaching regarding Justification pulls anything away from what Jesus Christ did for us or that Catholics actually don't believe what we said they are cut off not damned. Damned is a bad translation of anathama. They are cut off from the Catholic Church. Excommunicated is a better phrase.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't speak Elizabethan English. Nor do I speak Jamesian English. I speak American! So are you asking whether or not I'm freely Justified by God? See that Jesus paid the price for my justification I don't believe it is free. But am I Justified by my Faith? Yes and I can show you that I have faith by my works. Hows that?

Justification very basis is that Jesus was the propiation for your sin! You receive that Grace FULLY when faith is placed in Him, and at THAT moment God saves you, seals with the Holy Spirit, and declares that you are now in Christ, and that you are JUST as rightious before God as Jesus was!

THAT message was scandelous to Rome!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinking stuff

Thinking stuff...

It appears you have been fully indocrinated by the "Holy Mother Church" Gestapo Society (Catholic false church)


To turn from truth is not good.

To turn from truth to hellish doctrines is exceedingly dangerous

I sincerely hope you come to your senses.

God bless and help you

 

[Yeshua1]

Thinking stuff...

It appears you have been fully indocrinated by the "Holy Mother Church" Gestapo Society (Catholic false church)


To turn from truth is not good.

To turn from truth to hellish doctrines is exceedingly dangerous

I sincerely hope you come to your senses.

God bless and help you

Just wondering"what about the verse" of what baal has to do with God?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Yeshah

You asked about Baal.

Here is a page for you,..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thinking stuff...

It appears you have been fully indocrinated by the "Holy Mother Church" Gestapo Society (Catholic false church)


To turn from truth is not good.

To turn from truth to hellish doctrines is exceedingly dangerous

I sincerely hope you come to your senses.

God bless and help you

Gestapo is a bit harsh don't you think? Ive not seen them taking people out of their homes & shooting them. Not lately anyway.

 

[Alive in Christ]

EWF...

You know what..I think you are probably right about includng "gestapo". I shouldnt have included that.


I apologize

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF...

You know what..I think you are probably right about includng "gestapo". I shouldnt have included that.


I apologize

Good man...:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

I would agree with your first sentence. Your second sentence is wrong. Let me flush out what we are talking about and because you lump a lot of consepts into one word I will use the appropriate words to get at the actual meaning. So when you say I say this is true but more specifically Justified. Catholics do teach this so you are wrong about that.

Catholics do not teach that a person is justified by faith alone. In fact they are adamant against this doctrine and hate it with an intense hatred.
From the Council of Trent:

Canon IX. If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining of the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

That makes it fairly clear, doesn't it. The Catholics don't, and have never believed in justification by faith alone. And yet here it is in the Bible:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Justified by faith alone.
According to the Council of Trent, I am cursed.

Works conform us and "save" us only in the sense that they conform us into the likeness of Christ not that they justify us by themselves.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--Your works can do nothing for you until you are justified by faith and faith alone. They are as filthy rags, only to be thrown away. God doesn't even consider them.
"There is none good; no not one."

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--You can no more do good before God, than a leopard can change his spots to stripes. It is impossible. You cannot do good, any good that God will accept, unless you are first justified by faith alone.

They do not. You cannot work to make God owe you salvation (Rom 4) but you can be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 12).

You confuse apples with oranges.
A person must first be saved, and only then can he be conformed to the image of Christ. To be saved he is saved by faith alone--faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as the only payment that will satisfy the demands of God for the penalty for his sin. Nothing else will do. Works fail. They fall short. God doesn't accept them. In fact, for that very reason God cannot give you salvation based on works because works cannot pay for something so priceless. Salvation is a free gift that is given and received by faith. There is no merit, no works that can attain it.

However, Faith does justify. Specificially what kind of faith the faith that acts in love. But all this is by the grace of God without which you couldn't even get to faith.

Grace was provided at the cross. That is the meaning in Eph.2:8,9. It refers to the grace that Christ provides at the cross. We must accept the sacrifice provided by him in grace, by faith and faith alone. It was his grace; his love.

No, here you are wrong. James doesn't agree with you. True Biblical Christianity is the only religion that God reaches down to us to bring us up to him. All others strive to climb their way up to God without him.

I am not wrong.
1. The person that denies eternal damnation of the wicked uses the Book of Ecclesiastes to prove his point, but he ignores the overall context of the book in so doing.
2. The person who believes that speaking in tongues is valid for today ignores chapters 12-14 of 1Corinthians. If one would read those chapters (esp.14) with an open mind, he would never come to the conclusion that tongues were for today. But the Scripture and the context are ignored.
3. The person wanting to ignore that salvation is by faith alone, also ignores the overall context of James 2, and like the others takes the Scripture out of its context. The book is not speaking about salvation; it is a book on practical Christian living.
James does agree with me. But I understand what James is talking about.
Christianity is the only religion that is built on faith alone and not on works. James would agree with that.

Yes. and might I add work alone. To appease God. Works for Catholics is a result of Grace given by Faith. Its cooperating with what God wants you to do because you love him. Not to make God owe us salvation.

This is the "damnable heresy" of the RCC. Salvation is a free gift of God. It cannot be earned or worked for (See Romans 6:23; Eph.2:8,9). It is not of works; not of cooperation. It is a gift; a free gift. It is not of works, cannot be earned. What you say is an insult to God; a slap on his face.

Look at what you suggest. Here is Christ, meek and mild--gentle Jesus, hanging on a cross, dying, paying the penalty for our sins. He is weak, so unseemly that he is unrecognizable because of the terrible beatings and scourgings that he has endured.
Now you think that you must cooperate and help him as he suffers. You must be baptized. That helps him a bit. You must be confirmed. That helps him some more (don't know how--superstitious magic I suppose); you go down all the sacraments and think that they help Jesus and somehow cooperate with him taking on the suffering that he did. That is utter blasphemy. In John 19:30, Jesus cried out: "It is finished." Salvation was finished, and you had no part or parcel in his sufferings or helping out in redemption although you claim it. You do not cooperate with God. God does not need or take any man's cooperation. Salvation is all of God. For you to say that you cooperated with God in any way, shape or form is utter blasphemy. Jesus paid it all. He took the entire burden of all the sin of humanity upon himself. You did not lift one finger in cooperating with him. How dare you be so presumptuous!

Who will then act on that faith. Those who do not act on that faith are not saved. Just ask Jesus and James.

I know what James says, and the context in which he says it.
You are confused about, and sometimes I think deliberately so.
Again salvation is a free gift of God. See Rom.6:23.
Who will act on it. All who believe in Christ, that is who. There is no need to go around in circles here. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is straight forward. Believe--Have faith. It is fairly simple.

Nope this is just false. You never understood Catholicism even when you were Catholic.

I understood the RCC faith when I was Catholic.
I understood its history after I became a Christian, and could understand its doctrines from the light of the Bible after I became a Christian. There is more than one way to look at things.
When Constantine married Christianity to the state he introduced many pagan things. The result was Christianity paganized and paganism Christianized.

1 Cor 15:29 says differently.

In 1Cor.15:29 Paul refers to the practice of baptizing for the dead, but not in a good light. It was a pagan practice, much like the Mormons do today. It was not a Christian practice. This defeats your argument.

 

[DHK]

Just because Catholics have statues and pictures reminding them of Gospel events doesn't mean we worship statues and pictures. You need to study the council of Nicea 787.

All that I need to do is observe what the Catholic does and compare that practice to what the Bible says. It is the Bible that is my only rule of faith and doctrine, not councils. When you have images of Christ, Mary, saints, etc., bow down in front of them, pray in front of them, then the Bible calls that idolatry.

I don't know if you know anything about the incense but you don't sprinkle it. And I don't know if you know anything about the bible but the Jews used incense and the book of Revelations refers to incense. Strangely not occultic.

Are you a Jew? Do you practice Judaism? Have you ever been transported into heaven as John was? Then those things don't apply to you. They weren't in the early churches. They weren't a part of the worship of the early church. It comes from paganism. The eastern religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism all use incense in many of their ritualis. Why copy them if you claim to be Christian? Hinduism existed long before Christianity did.

that is a made up word and doesn't represent what we believe.

Is that so??

Mariolatryan excessive and proscribed veneration of the Virgin Mary. — Mariolater, n. — Mariolatrous, adj.
See also: Mary

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Mariolatry
--The dictionaries disagree with you.

Oh? So you are saying that God didn't say

You simply quoted a passage of Scripture that describes the instructions for the Israelites in building the tabernacle. What is your point? That is totally irrelevant to the images and icons that the Catholic church has, that they bow down to and pray before. That is idolatry, that which the Lord commanded not to do.

So you are also saying that God didn't say:

simple instructions on building the holy of holies. And so??

Then take this out of your bible because according to you it couldn't be the same God who said

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Sorry. Either you have the wrong Bible or you are just wrong about this. We see that all the things that you considered "pagan" regarding Catholicism actually find their origin in God and the bible. So it seems you are just wrong about this paganism thing.

That verse really bothers you doesn't it? The Jews never had anything pagan (that was ordered by God). They didn't bow down and worship those things in the tabernacle for example, as you do with Mary. The things that they made were not images of God, as your images are. That is what the verse refers to:
"a carved image, or any likeness of anything.... (of God). That is the whole context. Read Exodus chapter 20 carefully. He is speaking of himself. They were not to commit idolatry. They were not to bow down to anyone but God himself. They were not to make representations of God or of anything that would replace God. Both were wrong.
1. If you make an image that represents Jehovah, God the Father, and pray before him, it is idolatry. He is God. God is a spirit. He who worships him must worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).
2. If you make an image of Jesus Christ, who is also God, and pray before him, it is idolatry. God is spirit. He who worships him must worship in spirit and in truth.
3. If you make an image of Mary and pray before her it is wrong. It is worship and all worship belongs to God. You have committed idolatry. That is what these commands are saying, particularly the one that you quoted.

BTW, I have a copy of the Ten Commandments that I learned as a Catholic. They are quite different than the ones printed in Protestant literature, and as found in the Bible. You can tell me why can't you?

 

[OldRegular]

It seems to me that some of what Roman Catholics, and perhaps the Orthodox, have done in their communions is to reestablish to a degree the temple worship of the Old Testament. They maintain the incense, the candles, the priesthood, and the attire reminiscent of OT priests. They have replaced the blood offerings of the temple [the bulls and goats] with the Eucharist, the blood and body offering of Jesus Christ. Cannibalism??????

The pope is the high priest and much, much more, being the voice of God when speaking from Peter's chair, whatever that is! Just as Israel was guilty of doing Roman Catholicism has brought pagan practices into their communion.

Time and time again God brought Israel back from apostasy until finally he washed His hands of the dissident Northern Kingdom saying: Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. [Hosea 4:17]

God punished but restrained Judah from apostasy until the after the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Then they were deprived of their temple and left in their unbelief.

Like Israel the Roman Catholic communion drifted into apostasy, replacing the word of God with the Teaching Magisterium. Like the Northern Kingdom of Israel God has left them in their apostasy.

God spoke and said: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [Revelation 18:4]

Some came out: The great protestant Reformation. Sadly they did not come quite far enough and all retained some remnants of Rome.

But God has never left Himself without a faithful witness on earth. Throughout the history of the Church those who are faithful to the Bible as the Word of God have constituted that witness. I believe that since the formation of Roman Catholicism there have always been the dissenters, faithful the Word of God, persecuted, slaughtered, but never destroyed and there still are.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That makes it fairly clear, doesn't it. The Catholics don't, and have never believed in justification by faith alone. And yet here it is in the Bible:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Justified by faith alone.
According to the Council of Trent, I am cursed.

From the Council of Trent:
Quote:
Canon IX. If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining of the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Anathema, funny word for a church claiming the blood of Christ isnt it?

TS, what does your Bishop say about that? Are we all anathema & does the RCC formally still hold to Trent? If so, you better concentrate your efforts & energies on the marginal Catholic...... & then how could you align yourself with such arrogance?