2 Cor. 5:18-19

[AustinC]

My claims are Scriptural. Thus, no need to apologize.

And God reconciled man to Himself. They were no longer enemies. That is the act of God, (2 Cor. 5:19), accomplished in Jesus Christ.

Strange statement you make. I have said you only address the individuals part at 'be ye reconciled to God'. You ignore Gods act of reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19-20) The believer is to reconcile himself to God. But that is after God has already reconciled the world to Himself.

No, the 'one sinner at a time' is the individual reconciling himself to God. Again, you ignore God's reconciling the world.

Quantrill

I have read your opinion. It makes no biblical sense.
Every way I look at your proposition it ultimately comes up as merit-based salvation, like Van teaches. It's interesting then that both you two teach a merit-based system, yet your system is still at odds with one another.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Quantrill,

All were reconciled to God by God. (2 Cor. 5:19) \\

Those at the Great White Throne judgement are those who would not be reconciled to God.
They didn't want to be reconciled to God. They didn't want God.

So you say All were reconciled,they would not be reconciled,they did'nt want to be reconciled.
Is that the same as being saved and lost? light and dark?wet and dry?alive and dead?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven, how is faith, as you are using it, not a merited work that causes God to call that person righteous? It seems you and Van live in the same camp. Convince me otherwise.

This thread I made a couple months back explains why I am confident my faith is not a good work in any way deserving anything, God in His grace credits me righteousness in a way I cannot boast be for Him of in anyway.

A Biblical Defense of Synergism #2

 

[Quantrill]

Repeating bogus views does not make them less bogus. Your view is unbiblical.
God is reconciling the world (mankind) to himself, one believer at a time. Your claim God has completed that process is without any support anywhere in scripture.

And once again you make the material false statement I have ignored part of your screed.

Does the bible say we reconcile ourselves to God? Nope. Such is your ludicrous claim.

I have repeatedly shown you that we are reconciled to God when were enemies of God. (Rom. 5:6-10) That occurs when God reconciled the world unto Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18-19). This is done through the death and blood of Jesus Christ.

That is the message of 'reconciliation'. God has reconciled man to Himself. He extends to man the offer as a loving God for man to now be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20) God has dealt with that which made man at odds with God. Come to Christ and God. Be ye reconciled.

But, the vast majority of man will not. God has made the way open. He has reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. It doesn't matter. It's not a question of sin anymore, as God has dealt with it. They don't want God.

As I have said, you ignore that two actions are involved here. God has reconciled the world and that the individual must 'be ye reconciled'. God has done His part. It remains for the individual to do his.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

"Quantrill,



So you say All were reconciled,they would not be reconciled,they did'nt want to be reconciled.
Is that the same as being saved and lost? light and dark?wet and dry?alive and dead?

Go back and read post #(54). I explained it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I have read your opinion. It makes no biblical sense.
Every way I look at your proposition it ultimately comes up as merit-based salvation, like Van teaches. It's interesting then that both you two teach a merit-based system, yet your system is still at odds with one another.

Well, just tag along and keep reading. Perhaps take a few notes. That always helps me. Eventually the light might come on. But I am not offering any guarantees.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

This thread I made a couple months back explains why I am confident my faith is not a good work in any way deserving anything, God in His grace credits me righteousness in a way I cannot boast be for Him of in anyway.

A Biblical Defense of Synergism #2

Why does God credit...YOU... righteous?
If it's YOUR faith, not a gift of God, how is it that YOUR faith is not merit-based?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Why does God credit...YOU... righteous?
If it's YOUR faith, not a gift of God, how is it that YOUR faith is not merit-based?

I'll be blunt, because His Word says so. Not everything is logical from our limited human perspective. God's Word says it is so, I conform to His Word.

 

[Van]

@Van, Your rhetoric does not explain how @Quantrill misunderstands God reconciling the world unto Himself.

Sir, that is not his position. His position is that God has already, in the past reconciled the world to Himself.

 

[Van]

I have repeatedly shown you that we are reconciled to God when were enemies of God. (Rom. 5:6-10) That occurs when God reconciled the world unto Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18-19). This is done through the death and blood of Jesus Christ.

That is the message of 'reconciliation'. God has reconciled man to Himself. He extends to man the offer as a loving God for man to now be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20) God has dealt with that which made man at odds with God. Come to Christ and God. Be ye reconciled.

But, the vast majority of man will not. God has made the way open. He has reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. It doesn't matter. It's not a question of sin anymore, as God has dealt with it. They don't want God.

As I have said, you ignore that two actions are involved here. God has reconciled the world and that the individual must 'be ye reconciled'. God has done His part. It remains for the individual to do his.
Quantrill

On and on Quantrill regurgitates the same falsehoods. No verse says God has reconciled the world, only that He has reconciled individuals of the world, and is continuing to reconcile individuals to this day, thus reconciling the world. Any other view is obviously false and agenda driven.

 

[Dave G]

I have repeatedly shown you that we are reconciled to God when were enemies of God. (Rom. 5:6-10) That occurs when God reconciled the world unto Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18-19). This is done through the death and blood of Jesus Christ.

That is the message of 'reconciliation'. God has reconciled man to Himself. He extends to man the offer as a loving God for man to now be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20) God has dealt with that which made man at odds with God. Come to Christ and God. Be ye reconciled.

But, the vast majority of man will not. God has made the way open. He has reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. It doesn't matter. It's not a question of sin anymore, as God has dealt with it. They don't want God.

As I have said, you ignore that two actions are involved here. God has reconciled the world and that the individual must 'be ye reconciled'. God has done His part. It remains for the individual to do his.

I remember when I was persuaded of this some years ago, Quantrill.
I also remember how that, in my studies, the Lord gradually resolved this for me.

He showed me what happened at the cross, and the context for whom it all happened:

1) Romans 5:10, with the context established from Romans 5:1.
2) Colossians 2:13-14, with the context established from Colossians 2:6-12.
3) 2 Corinthians 5:15-19, with the context being established within itself by significant statements regarding who does not have their trespasses imputed to them and who does, as well as being established from other passages like Romans 4:3-8.
4) Galatians 2:20, all believers were legally crucified with Christ. See Colossians 2:13-14.
5) Ephesians 5:1-2, with the context being stated within the passage.
6) Ephesians 5:25-27, with the context being established in item 5, as well as with the word "it" in verse 25.
7) Matthew 1:21.
8) John 10:11.
9) Isaiah 53:8.

Those are just some of them.


It was then that I began looking at passages like 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:4 in a different light, and taking "world" in 1 John 2:2 and questioning who it was describing...
Those that were saved out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ) and those that are "called" both Jew and Gentile ( Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:24 ), instead of all men indiscriminately.

Back then I didn't understand the ramifications of it all, and I certainly didn't see all the contradictions, apparent or otherwise...
Now I see many or even most of them.
I also think that the others who are pointing things out to you, should be taking this into account.


May God bless you richly in your daily walk, and in your continuing studies of His word.

 

[Dave G]

On and on Quantrill regurgitates the same falsehoods.

Van, believers should be less accusatory and more gracious in their conduct toward others ( Romans 12, etc. ).
Shouldn't we?

Any other view is obviously false and agenda driven.

As I've pointed out in past threads, Van,

The tone of many of your posts doesn't seem to come across in the loving manner that a teacher or brother in the Lord should be exhibiting ( 2 Timothy 2:24 ) towards others, and they certainly aren't being deferential.
Were you trying to correct Quantrill out of a genuine love and concern for him as a brother, or just to come off sounding hurtful to him?
Because that's the way it looks to me, like you really don't care if you hammer him or not.

Honestly, sir, have you stepped back and read what you post before you post it?
I realize that I have had my moments, but to me, you really are unable to see how you come across to others.

It's one thing to disagree with someone,
and quite another to accuse them of being malicious and of purposefully lying.

 

[AustinC]

Well, just tag along and keep reading. Perhaps take a few notes. That always helps me. Eventually the light might come on. But I am not offering any guarantees.

Quantrill

Q, the light came on for me when I read the Bible. I once believed as you teach, but the Bible speaks and told me I was wrong to hold the position you hold. Merit-based salvation is not presented in the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

I'll be blunt, because His Word says so. Not everything is logical from our limited human perspective. God's Word says it is so, I conform to His Word.

I'll be blunt back. No, the Bible does not say so. You interpret the Bible and add merit-based faith by your interpretation, not by what the Bible says.
You are young in Christ and you zealously search, which is good. You remind me of Keith Green, who started out with a legalist belief, yet over time, as he read scripture, turned from legalism to grace. May God keep guiding you away from works and into his amazing grace. Pay attention to Dave, he is speaking truth to you.

 

[AustinC]

Sir, that is not his position. His position is that God has already, in the past reconciled the world to Himself.

Van, I tend to agree with you here. It seems (and I admit Q's teaching is a bit puzzling) that Q teaches the whole world as being reconciled, but the reconciled can destroy (or rebuild) that reconciliation on a moment by moment basis. It seems to be a hybrid wesleyan or nazarene theology, but I confess it is puzzling.

You, on the other hand, teach human faith, which causes God to either declare it righteous or unrighteous, depending on God's feelings about you on that day.

Both are merit-based means of salvation, apart from grace.

 

[Alan Gross]

Why does God credit...YOU... righteous?
If it's YOUR faith, not a gift of God, how is it that YOUR faith is not merit-based?

God Just Goes ahead and Tells it, Right Straight Out, on account of the weakness of men's minds and the tricks of Supernatural Evil.

"For by Grace are ye Saved through Faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is The Gift of God:"

Epesians 2:8.

 

[Alan Gross]

I remember when I was persuaded of this some years ago, Quantrill.
I also remember how that, in my studies, the Lord gradually resolved this for me.

He showed me what happened at the cross, and the context for whom it all happened:

1) Romans 5:10, with the context established from Romans 5:1.
2) Colossians 2:13-14, with the context established from Colossians 2:6-12.
3) 2 Corinthians 5:15-19, with the context being established within itself by significant statements regarding who does not have their trespasses imputed to them and who does, as well as being established from other passages like Romans 4:3-8.
4) Galatians 2:20, all believers were legally crucified with Christ. See Colossians 2:13-14.
5) Ephesians 5:1-2, with the context being stated within the passage.
6) Ephesians 5:25-27, with the context being established in item 5, as well as with the word "it" in verse 25.
7) Matthew 1:21.
8) John 10:11.
9) Isaiah 53:8.

Those are just some of them.


It was then that I began looking at passages like 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:4 in a different light, and taking "world" in 1 John 2:2 and questioning who it was describing...
Those that were saved out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ) and those that are "called" both Jew and Gentile ( Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:24 ), instead of all men indiscriminately.

Back then I didn't understand the ramifications of it all, and I certainly didn't see all the contradictions, apparent or otherwise...
Now I see many or even most of them.
I also think that the others who are pointing things out to you, should be taking this into account.


May God bless you richly in your daily walk, and in your continuing studies of His word.

This is 'some homework'.

 

[Dave G]

This is 'some homework'.

" Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).


Psalms 119:105.

 

[Quantrill]

On and on Quantrill regurgitates the same falsehoods. No verse says God has reconciled the world, only that He has reconciled individuals of the world, and is continuing to reconcile individuals to this day, thus reconciling the world. Any other view is obviously false and agenda driven.

(2 Cor. 5:18-19) (Rom. 5:6-10)

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I remember when I was persuaded of this some years ago, Quantrill.
I also remember how that, in my studies, the Lord gradually resolved this for me.

He showed me what happened at the cross, and the context for whom it all happened:

1) Romans 5:10, with the context established from Romans 5:1.
2) Colossians 2:13-14, with the context established from Colossians 2:6-12.
3) 2 Corinthians 5:15-19, with the context being established within itself by significant statements regarding who does not have their trespasses imputed to them and who does, as well as being established from other passages like Romans 4:3-8.
4) Galatians 2:20, all believers were legally crucified with Christ. See Colossians 2:13-14.
5) Ephesians 5:1-2, with the context being stated within the passage.
6) Ephesians 5:25-27, with the context being established in item 5, as well as with the word "it" in verse 25.
7) Matthew 1:21.
8) John 10:11.
9) Isaiah 53:8.

Those are just some of them.


It was then that I began looking at passages like 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:4 in a different light, and taking "world" in 1 John 2:2 and questioning who it was describing...
Those that were saved out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ) and those that are "called" both Jew and Gentile ( Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:24 ), instead of all men indiscriminately.

Back then I didn't understand the ramifications of it all, and I certainly didn't see all the contradictions, apparent or otherwise...
Now I see many or even most of them.
I also think that the others who are pointing things out to you, should be taking this into account.


May God bless you richly in your daily walk, and in your continuing studies of His word.

The 'world' never describes the believers. It describes the world.

If the world describes the believers, then you cannot love the believers. (1 John 2:15-17)

I know you and others will tell me that the world there doesn't mean believers. To which I say, that's handy. I can make the world mean whatever I need it to mean to fit by theology.

Quantrill