2 Thessalonians 2:13 What does it say?

[Silverhair]

Still nothing changes, conviction of the Spirit accompanies His Sanctifying work in regeneration, which results in belief of the Truth.

The fact that what you are saying is not scriptural does not seem to bother you. You seem quite content to live with error.

 

[Brightfame52]

The fact that what you are saying is not scriptural does not seem to bother you. You seem quite content to live with error.

Lol, Nothing changes, belief of the Truth, which is Faith in Christ who is the Truth, is a result of the Sanctifying work of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So wherever we read of someone believing the Gospel Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Believing in Jesus Christ Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It presupposes the Sanctifying work of the Spirit to cause it.

 

[canadyjd]

The fact that what you are saying is not scriptural does not seem to bother you. You seem quite content to live with error.

Look, the stated beliefs are based on scripture. I understand that you disagree and have a different view of those passages, but it is simply untrue to say they are not scriptural.

Just make your case by scripture. Show us why we are wrong.

These passages have been debated for centuries and the arguments are the same.

When it comes to salvation, I like they old saying that if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works.

If you believe man is responding to God for salvation, you have grace.

peace to you

 

[37818]

When it comes to salvation, I like they old saying that if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works.

If you believe man is responding to God for salvation, you have grace.

What you fail to comprehend, without God responding to man, man responding to God accomplishes nothing.

Romans 4:5, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

 

[JonC]

Look, the stated beliefs are based on scripture. I understand that you disagree and have a different view of those passages, but it is simply untrue to say they are not scriptural.

Just make your case by scripture. Show us why we are wrong.

These passages have been debated for centuries and the arguments are the same.

When it comes to salvation, I like they old saying that if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works.

If you believe man is responding to God for salvation, you have grace.

peace to you

Kinda.

We look for an order (this step produces this step, ect.) to salvation. That is not always biblical if by "biblical" we mean "in the Bible".

One side will say we have regenerated unbelievers and the other that we have believing unregenerate people. Neither are actually "biblical" positions.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, Nothing changes, belief of the Truth, which is Faith in Christ who is the Truth, is a result of the Sanctifying work of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So wherever we read of someone believing the Gospel Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Believing in Jesus Christ Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It presupposes the Sanctifying work of the Spirit to cause it.

Only in your theology. The bible shows that you have to freely believe before you are saved.
You refuse to accept the truth of scripture.
Man hears the gospel then either rejects or accepts the gospel. If they accept the gospel message they are saved by the grace of God because of their faith. If they reject the gospel message they are condemned because of there lack of faith.

You quoted 2 Th 2:13, Rom 1:16 and Joh 3:16 and all these verses show the error of your theology. Man is saved by God because they believe which is clearly shown. You have to read into the text so as to hopefully make it fit your view, which it does not.

 

[Brightfame52]

Only in your theology. The bible shows that you have to freely believe before you are saved.
You refuse to accept the truth of scripture.
Man hears the gospel then either rejects or accepts the gospel. If they accept the gospel message they are saved by the grace of God because of their faith. If they reject the gospel message they are condemned because of there lack of faith.

You quoted 2 Th 2:13, Rom 1:16 and Joh 3:16 and all these verses show the error of your theology. Man is saved by God because they believe which is clearly shown. You have to read into the text so as to hopefully make it fit your view, which it does not.

Nothing changes, those who believe have been already regenerated by the Spirit.

 

[canadyjd]

Kinda.

We look for an order (this step produces this step, ect.) to salvation. That is not always biblical if by "biblical" we mean "in the Bible".

One side will say we have regenerated unbelievers and the other that we have believing unregenerate people. Neither are actually "biblical" positions.

Well, that’s not confusing at all.

I could be corrrct and they could be wrong or they could be correct and I could be wrong. We may both be wrong but we cannot both be correct.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

What you fail to comprehend, without God responding to man, man responding to God accomplishes nothing.

Romans 4:5, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

You didn’t comprehend what I said. God initiates salvation, God brings it to completion. it doesn’t come from man. When a man/woman responds to God Holy Spirit’s work in regeneration with faith in Jesus, they are then indwelt by God Holy Spirit and brought into a right relationship with God (saved). You can view that as God responding to mankind’s faith and I really don’t have a problem with that. But salvation is work of God from start to finish and He gets 100 % credit for it.

There is an interaction and a logical progression though it may, at times, seem instantaneous.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Look, the stated beliefs are based on scripture. I understand that you disagree and have a different view of those passages, but it is simply untrue to say they are not scriptural.

Just make your case by scripture. Show us why we are wrong.

These passages have been debated for centuries and the arguments are the same.

When it comes to salvation, I like they old saying that if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works.

If you believe man is responding to God for salvation, you have grace.

peace to you

I have made my case many times via scripture and have yet to see one made via scripture that supports your view.
FYI I am not questioning that you use scripture, I am saying that you actually misuse the scriptures

I find it funny that you would hold to an old saying that is clearly false. "if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works." Whoever thinks this is supported by scripture obviously has not trusted what the Holy Spirit said.

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified

Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The teaching of scripture leaves no room for doubt that salvation is entirely by grace. But this salvation is only received through faith.

I would surmise that you are saying that faith is a meritorious work but in doing so you would be at odds with Christ Jesus & the Father.

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Faith in His son is the required work of God, the one work of God, the one thing God requires. One needs to put their trust in the One the Father has sent.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[canadyjd]

I have made my case many times via scripture and have yet to see one made via scripture that supports your view.
FYI I am not questioning that you use scripture, I am saying that you actually misuse the scriptures

I find it funny that you would hold to an old saying that is clearly false. "if you believe God is responding to man in salvation, then that is works." Whoever thinks this is supported by scripture obviously has not trusted what the Holy Spirit said.

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified

Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The teaching of scripture leaves no room for doubt that salvation is entirely by grace. But this salvation is only received through faith.

I would surmise that you are saying that faith is a meritorious work but in doing so you would be at odds with Christ Jesus & the Father.

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Faith in His son is the required work of God, the one work of God, the one thing God requires. One needs to put their trust in the One the Father has sent.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And so we disagree about who is misusing scripture.

thanks fir the comments.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Well, that’s not confusing at all.

I could be corrrct and they could be wrong or they could be correct and I could be wrong. We may both be wrong but we cannot both be correct.

peace to you

It isn't confusing at all.

I'd say you are both wrong. Scripture does not break down salvation into micro doctrines that stand alone but presents salvation as a whole comprised of different aspects like repentance, belief, and regeneration.

One is not regenerated and then believes and one does not believe and then is regenerated. Instead one is saved. They repent, believe and are regenerated (aspects, not an order).

 

[canadyjd]

It isn't confusing at all.

I'd say you are both wrong. Scripture does not break down salvation into micro doctrines that stand alone but presents salvation as a whole comprised of different aspects like repentance, belief, and regeneration.

One is not regenerated and then believes and one does not believe and then is regenerated. Instead one is saved. They repent, believe and are regenerated (aspects, not an order).

Well, I understand what you are saying, but there is a beginning and an end.

Salvation starts with God and ends with God and it is all of God from start to finish. Without God’s work prior to belief, there is no salvation.

As I sad above, there is a logical order but the process can seems instantaneous.

Thanks for the comment.

peace to you

 

[AVL1984]

Okay thanks so much, I believe its scriptural 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Peter agrees 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Notice the Spirits sanctifying work results in obedience

Again Peter says we believe/obey because of the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

So whenever one believes in Christ its because of the Spirits sanctifying, regenerating work.

After all Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The word fruit karpos means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

The Spirit is the author of ones Faith in Christ, Give God the Glory !

I see nobody, including myself, denying the work of the Holy Spirit. And as I stated...believe in the process, whatever order you believe you were led to believe. Other's don't agree with your intepretation.

 

[JonC]

Well, I understand what you are saying, but there is a beginning and an end.

Salvation starts with God and ends with God and it is all of God from start to finish. Without God’s work prior to belief, there is no salvation.

As I sad above, there is a logical order but the process can seems instantaneous.

Thanks for the comment.

peace to you

I never bought in to the "logical order" thing. Depends too much on man (on logic rather than God).

But I do know what you mean (and that logical orders are not chronological orders but for illustration).

I think perhaps that's the problem. We think of orders as step 1 then step 2, etc, but logical orders are not chronological orders....yet that is how they are argued....logically.

For example, if talking about belief we can say that one must be regenerated to be able to believe (logical order) or one must believe to be regenerated (logical order).....both are correct, the context determining the order. Logical order makes sense of events or things.

I shiped small, medium and large bicycles today. That is logical order. I shipped medium, then large, and lastly small bikes (that is chronological order).

If we say one must be regenerated to believe (chronological order) or one must believe to be regenerated (chronological order) then both are equally problematic. Scripture does not give this chronological order.

Most of the time people on this board argue "logical order" as chronological order. And they are wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

And so we disagree about who is misusing scripture.

thanks fir the comments.

peace to you

But I notice that you do not post any scripture that supports your view. Why you do not actually trust what the Holy Spirit says I do not understand. It is not that complicated, only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son.

 

[canadyjd]

I never bought in to the "logical order" thing. Depends too much on man (on logic rather than God).

But I do know what you mean (and that logical orders are not chronological orders but for illustration).

I think perhaps that's the problem. We think of orders as step 1 then step 2, etc, but logical orders are not chronological orders....yet that is how they are argued....logically.

For example, if talking about belief we can say that one must be regenerated to be able to believe (logical order) or one must believe to be regenerated (logical order).....both are correct, the context determining the order. Logical order makes sense of events or things.

I shiped small, medium and large bicycles today. That is logical order. I shipped medium, then large, and lastly small bikes (that is chronological order).

If we say one must be regenerated to believe (chronological order) or one must believe to be regenerated (chronological order) then both are equally problematic. Scripture does not give this chronological order.

Most of the time people on this board argue "logical order" as chronological order. And they are wrong.

I do understand your point that both sides have a chronological order and it’s a good point.

However, I disagree that scripture doesn’t give the chronological order.

In Ephesians 2, it says “But God…. While we were dead in trespasses and sin.. “

That is giving a chronological order of how God brought us to salvation. God was acting while we were dead in trespasses and sin.

When Jesus said in John 10 that He knows His sheep, He calls them by name, they follow Him…. that is giving a chronological order to salvation.

Jesus said no one knows the Father except the Sin and those He (the Sin) wills to reveal Him. That gives an order; Christ must first exercise His will in revealing God to those He has chosen.

Even in the passage we are discussing, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, there is an “order” by way of explanation that salvation comes 1. By Sanctification (being set apart) by God Holy Spirit and 2. Belief in the truth.

The order Paul gives us in scripture is the order in which it occurs. First, Holy Spirit sets us apart for salvation Second, that salvation occurs by means of belief in the gospel.

Now, Paul doesn’t give every “step” in the process here. We know God Holy Spirit “draws” us, “convicts us” of sin and the truth of the Gospel and indwells us at salvation as a pledge promise that we are in a right relationship with God.

And, of course, we can’t leave out Jesus’s intercession for us at the right hand of the Father in this life and at the Great Throne Judgment.

Yes, I believe scripture does teach the “logical order” of salvation, though in practice it seems, at times, instantaneous.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

But I notice that you do not post any scripture that supports your view. Why you do not actually trust what the Holy Spirit says I do not understand. It is not that complicated, only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son.

Like I said, we disagree. As you know, there is a history between us and I have not found long discussions with you to be profitable for either of us.

I do thank you for the comments, especially the scholar’s take in the passage.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

It isn't confusing at all.

I'd say you are both wrong. Scripture does not break down salvation into micro doctrines that stand alone but presents salvation as a whole comprised of different aspects like repentance, belief, and regeneration.

One is not regenerated and then believes and one does not believe and then is regenerated. Instead one is saved. They repent, believe and are regenerated (aspects, not an order).

Logically if one repents it is because they believe and if they believe they will repent. One does not happen without the other. But these do not merit/earn you salvation. Salvation is only by the grace of God.

I believe salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior.

Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

The false belief that forgiveness is somehow owed to those who freely humble themselves and ask for it can lead to erroneous conclusions.

While the other side of that is that faith in Christ Jesus is not required for salvation as God will give you faith after you are saved which has lead to some erroneous conclusions.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Loraine Boettner

Faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.

Bottom line
Salvation is the gift of God to undeserving mankind.

 

[Silverhair]

Like I said, we disagree. As you know, there is a history between us and I have not found long discussions with you to be profitable for either of us.

I do thank you for the comments, especially the scholar’s take in the passage.

peace to you

As you said we do disagree but unlike you I do find our discussions profitable. I had not even heard of the C vs A fight until a few years ago so for me having the opportunity to discuss the view points is enlightening. I grew up just trusting the bible so I find this idea of someone holding to what some men tell us the bible means quite interesting.

While I do not find either view to be wholly consistent with scripture I will say that I do find the Arminian view more in line with scripture and the character of God as presented in scripture. I, of course, do expect you to disagree with what I have said and thus our disagreements.

I think we will cross swords again on this board. If you see fit to respond then all to the good if you do not it is your choice.