2 Thessalonians 2:13 What does it say?

[JonC]

The Jewish mindset would have recognized “from the beginning” to be referring to God creating the heavens and the earth since that word is used in Genesis.

I'm not disagreeing with you here (I agree with your post), but Van may have somewhat of a point in that this epistle was not to a primarily Jewish audience.

 

[Alan Gross]

So, according to this verse, God chose a specific group of people for salvation from the beginning. Those He chose were sanctified (set apart) by God Holy Spirit and we’re brought in that right relationship with God through belief in the truth and that too is connected to God Holy Spirit’s work in sanctifying them.

Right on. I love it. The whole post.

Let’s try to stay focused on the meaning of the passage

Very cool. Good idea.

peace to you

Peace to you, too, brother. (I've been wanting to say that.)

 

[canadyjd]

I'm not disagreeing with you here (I agree with your post), but Van may have somewhat of a point in that this epistle was not to a primarily Jewish audience.

That is true, but Paul does not exclude any reference to Jewish beliefs in his writings to Gentiles.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

That is true, but Paul does not exclude any reference to Jewish beliefs in his writings to Gentiles.

peace to you

I agree. And I agree with your interpretation.

That said, as you noted there are other interpretations (like the beginning of the gospel preached).

 

[canadyjd]

Here is an article in response to the one by Bill Mounce I have included the like to the article by Bill Mounce also. If the link does not work as a hot link then just copy it into your browser.

What do Prepositions Modify (2 Thess 2:13)? Bill Mounce
What do Prepositions Modify (2 Thess 2:13)? | billmounce.com


In this article by Dr. Brian Abasciano he points out the what he sees as the error in Dr. Mounce's view.

Dr Brian Abasciano

On his blog, Greek scholar Bill Mounce wrote a post on 2Th_2:13. It maintains, among other things, that “through faith” should be taken as modifying “salvation” in the text (which allows for and can favor unconditional election). I made a comment at Bill’s blog on the post, pointing out that Greek grammar actually favors taking “through faith” with “chosen”, {which would make election conditional on faith in Christ}.

We are chosen by faith (just as we are justified by faith).

{God chose for salvation, by the Spirit, because of faith}



Here is the comment by Dr Brian Abasciano

Bill, I would disagree with your conclusion about what the prepositional phrase modifies. Your own grammar recognizes that prepositional phrases most often modify verbs (sec. 8.15; cf. Daniel Wallace’s grammar, pp. 356-57, who even speaks as though modification of something other than a verb is exceptional for prepositions, though still obviously possible and something that occurs). Of course, they can modify nouns. But all things being equal, they are more likely to modify the verb. So I think that puts the objective grammar more on the side of taking the prepositional phrase as modifying the verb “chose”, though of course, it does not demand it.

Your point about word order does not count as strongly since word order does not figure strongly in Greek for determining function. Indeed, in the Septuagint (there are no other NT examples), whenever the word salvation is followed by a prepositional phrase beginning with en as in 2Th_2:13, it modifies the verb (1Sa_11:13; 2Sa_19:3; Psa_73:12; Psa_118:15 [where, notably, the tendency of the prepositional phrase to modify a verb is so strong that here it modifies an implied verb rather than the noun “salvation” that immediately precedes it!]; 1Ma_3:6) except for 2Ki_13:17, in which the prepositional phrase modifies a noun other than “salvation,” and there is no verb at all for it to modify.

Your point that the preposition might semantically modify the verbal idea in “salvation” does increase the likelihood that it might modify “salvation” here, but not enough to make it as likely or more likely than it simply modifying the actual verb, {has chosenG138} as it normally would. The actual usage of “salvation” + “en” in biblical literature does not bear out the idea of modification of the verbal idea in “salvation,” but rather the greater likelihood of it modifying the actual verb in the context.

As for your assertion that, “it would be a strange thing to say that God’s election was in some way connected to our belief,” that appears to be a theological presupposition carrying no weight. It just so happens that a major evangelical theological system (not to mention the consensual Christian tradition! See Thomas Oden, The Transforming Power of Grace) explicitly believes that God’s election is conditional on faith in Christ — Arminianism. So it doesn’t seem strange to me at all, but it seems like the most natural reading of 2Th_2:13 supports the Arminian position that election is conditional on faith in Christ.

Thanks for sharing the info.

Dr. Brian Abasciano has fine credentials with a Phd in Divinity and New Testament (if I remember correctly). I looked at his church’s website and found very little I disagreed with. He is a member of something called the Evangelical Society of Arminians (I think I got that right.)

He makes his case for “chosen” in a professional manner, as you would expect from a scholar.

He acknowledges Dr. Mounce’s analysis as a valid option, but disagrees and gives his reasons for doing so.

In the end, he has as much bias as anyone from the “doctrines of grace” camp.

I will point out that although his credentials are impressive, he did not specialize in biblical Greek, as far as I can tell, as Dr. Mounce has.

We are left with the same two options as before.

Again, thanks for sharing a scholar’ point of view that differs.

peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

Through clarified the Salvation they're Chosen to, Believing the truth by means of sanctification of the Spirit or regeneration. God chose them to believe the Gospel by regenerating them. We must be born again in order to believe the Gospel!

 

[AVL1984]

Through clarified the Salvation they're Chosen to, Believing the truth by means of sanctification of the Spirit or regeneration. God chose them to believe the Gospel by regenerating them. We must be born again in order to believe the Gospel!

I hate to say it, but this sounds sort of backwards in the process....One isn't "born again" until they believe...

 

[Brightfame52]

I hate to say it, but this sounds sort of backwards in the process....One isn't "born again" until they believe...

Sorry, one cannot believe until they are born of the Spirit or sanctified by the Spirit. Same Truth is taught by Peter 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

See that ? Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO obedience, not because of obedience as you say.

 

[Van]

No he doesn't. He does give the ESV and the NIV translations, but he cited the Greek and explains why one is the better translation rather than relying on either (an advantage of being a scholar in Koine Greek, I suppose, is that he is not dependent on English translations).

What do Prepositions Modify (2 Thess 2:13)? | billmounce.com

Now I am supposed to debate the used of "cite" to meaning quoting a specific translation?"
Did I say he did not also cite the Greek language? Nope
Is his view that differs from his copyrighted translation an agenda driven mistranslation? Yes

MOUNCE
But we ought always to thank · God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you · as first fruits for salvation, by sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.​

Is relying on Greek scholars views, as presented in English, somehow less of an "advantage" than relying on one Greek scholar's view, as presented in English. Nope.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (interpretive translation)
Yet we ought always to be thanking God concerning you, siblings beloved by our Lord, because God has chosen all of you, since the beginning of the New Covenant, for the purpose of salvation, by setting you apart in Christ due to crediting your faith as righteousness.

In the beginning does not point to the beginning of anything specifically. In this verse, the beginning in view is the inauguration of the New Covenant. "From the beginning" refers to the span of time after inauguration, not before. Thus the idea is that those chosen are given to Christ spiritually, and Christ's promise is not cast those given out.

Grammatically the through describes the how and why of the verb chose. That is why some translations "fix" the text by changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "to be saved." They want to make "through faith in the truth" refer to being saved rather than being chosen.

Sanctification by the Spirit, does refer to being set apart in Christ spiritually.

"though... belief in the truth" provides the basis of our election for salvation, thus a conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

 

[Silverhair]

Sorry, one cannot believe until they are born of the Spirit or sanctified by the Spirit. Same Truth is taught by Peter 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

See that ? Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO obedience, not because of obedience as you say.

Your view does stand in opposition to much of scripture.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

 

[JonC]

Now I am supposed to debate the used of "cite" to meaning quoting a specific translation?"
Did I say he did not also cite the Greek language? Nope
Is his view that differs from his copyrighted translation an agenda driven mistranslation? Yes

MOUNCE
But we ought always to thank · God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you · as first fruits for salvation, by sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.​

Is relying on Greek scholars views, as presented in English, somehow less of an "advantage" than relying on one Greek scholar's view, as presented in English. Nope.

Not at all.

The problem is you worded your post as if the Greek scholar was working with the particular English translation when in fact he was sourcing the Greek and saying that the ESV provided the more accurate translation from Greek into English.

It was a matter of treating the reference with integrity.

The issue with comparing translation vs translation and dismissing experts in the actual language as ignorant is that translations depend on more than simple linguistics.

But I suspect you know this.

 

[Van]

Not at all.

The problem is you worded your post as if the Greek scholar was working with the particular English translation when in fact he was sourcing the Greek and saying that the ESV provided the more accurate translation from Greek into English.

It was a matter of treating the reference with integrity.

The issue with comparing translation vs translation and dismissing experts in the actual language as ignorant is that translations depend on more than simple linguistics.

But I suspect you know this.

No, you misconstrued my post which is the basis of your objection. Thus a strawman argument.
Did I say or suggest Dr. Mounce was sourcing his view on an English translation? Nope.
My integrity is not in question. Thus an "against the man" fallacious argument.
Did I dismiss all the expects? Nope. Did I dismiss the majority of experts? Nope.
Did I suggest any of the published Greek scholars were "ignorant?" Nope.

Once again, my stated view is not even being addressed.
Is relying on Greek scholars views, as presented in English, somehow less of an "advantage" than relying on one Greek scholar's view, as presented in English. Nope.

About how many published English translations change the Greek noun into a verb to alter the meaning of the verse? 17!
About how many published English translations present the Greek noun salvation as an English noun? 28!
What are some of the published modern translation, sticking with noun? NKJV, NASB, NET, LEB, NRSV, CSB, and WEB.

It looks like the one making the charge of dismissing the experts is the one dismissing the most experts.

 

[JonC]

No, you misconstrued my post which is the basis of your objection. Thus a strawman argument.
Did I say or suggest Dr. Mounce was sourcing his view on an English translation? Nope.

Mounce cites the ESV mistranslation in his effort to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

My integrity is not in question.

I agree. I was speaking the reference (maintaining the integrity of the reference).

 

[Brightfame52]

Your view does stand in opposition to much of scripture.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Nothing changes, the Sanctifying work of the Spirit precdes believing the Truth, the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing changes, the Sanctifying work of the Spirit precdes believing the Truth, the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The conviction of the Holy Spirit will cause some to change their minds re the gospel and Christ Jesus but one is only sanctified after they believe not before they do. Which you should understand since you quoted 2 Th 2:13-14.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

BF your theology is putting the card before the horse.

Sanctification
In an evangelical sense, the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God.

BF if one were to go by your theological view "the Sanctifying work of the Spirit precdes believing the Truth, the Gospel" then you have to ask why does one have to believe at all?

But the bible disagree with your view
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[AVL1984]

Sorry, one cannot believe until they are born of the Spirit or sanctified by the Spirit. Same Truth is taught by Peter 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

See that ? Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO obedience, not because of obedience as you say.

Your interpretation...and you're welcome to it.

 

[AustinC]

I hate to say it, but this sounds sort of backwards in the process....One isn't "born again" until they believe...

Let me ask this.
Did you believe before your parents procreated you and thus you were conceived and born?
Of course not.
Why then do you demand that you must believe before God makes you alive in being born again?

So, the backwards process is clearly your view, not the person who sees God doing the work.

 

[Brightfame52]

The conviction of the Holy Spirit will cause some to change their minds re the gospel and Christ Jesus but one is only sanctified after they believe not before they do. Which you should understand since you quoted 2 Th 2:13-14.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

BF your theology is putting the card before the horse.

Sanctification
In an evangelical sense, the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God.

BF if one were to go by your theological view "the Sanctifying work of the Spirit precdes believing the Truth, the Gospel" then you have to ask why does one have to believe at all?

But the bible disagree with your view
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Still nothing changes, conviction of the Spirit accompanies His Sanctifying work in regeneration, which results in belief of the Truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your interpretation...and you're welcome to it.

Okay thanks so much, I believe its scriptural 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Peter agrees 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Notice the Spirits sanctifying work results in obedience

Again Peter says we believe/obey because of the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

So whenever one believes in Christ its because of the Spirits sanctifying, regenerating work.

After all Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The word fruit karpos means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

The Spirit is the author of ones Faith in Christ, Give God the Glory !