2 Thessalonians 2:13 What does it say?

[AustinC]

One person has a sword. The other one has a scimitar.

 

[JonC]

I never bought in to the "logical order" thing. Depends too much on man (on logic rather than God).

But I do know what you mean (and that logical orders are not chronological orders but for illustration).

I think perhaps that's the problem. We think of orders as step 1 then step 2, etc, but logical orders are not chronological orders....yet that is how they are argued....logically.

For example, if talking about belief we can say that one must be regenerated to be able to believe (logical order) or one must believe to be regenerated (logical order).....both are correct, the context determining the order.

BUT if we say one must be regenerated to believe (chronological order) or one must believe to be regenerated (chronological order) then both are equally problematic.

Most of the time people on this board argue "logical order" as chronological order. And they are wrong.

Logically if one repents it is because they believe and if they believe they will repent. One does not happen without the other. But these do not merit/earn you salvation. Salvation is only by the grace of God.

I believe salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior.

Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

The false belief that forgiveness is somehow owed to those who freely humble themselves and ask for it can lead to erroneous conclusions.

While the other side of that is that faith in Christ Jesus is not required for salvation as God will give you faith after you are saved which has lead to some erroneous conclusions.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Loraine Boettner

Faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.

Bottom line
Salvation is the gift of God to undeserving mankind.

I agree.

 

[JonC]

I do understand your point that both sides have a chronological order and it’s a good point.

However, I disagree that scripture doesn’t give the chronological order.

In Ephesians 2, it says “But God…. While we were dead in trespasses and sin.. “

That is giving a chronological order of how God brought us to salvation. God was acting while we were dead in trespasses and sin.

When Jesus said in John 10 that He knows His sheep, He calls them by name, they follow Him…. that is giving a chronological order to salvation.

Jesus said no one knows the Father except the Sin and those He (the Sin) wills to reveal Him. That gives an order; Christ must first exercise His will in revealing God to those He has chosen.

Even in the passage we are discussing, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, there is an “order” by way of explanation that salvation comes 1. By Sanctification (being set apart) by God Holy Spirit and 2. Belief in the truth.

The order Paul gives us in scripture is the order in which it occurs. First, Holy Spirit sets us apart for salvation Second, that salvation occurs by means of belief in the gospel.

Now, Paul doesn’t give every “step” in the process here. We know God Holy Spirit “draws” us, “convicts us” of sin and the truth of the Gospel and indwells us at salvation as a pledge promise that we are in a right relationship with God.

And, of course, we can’t leave out Jesus’s intercession for us at the right hand of the Father in this life and at the Great Throne Judgment.

Yes, I believe scripture does teach the “logical order” of salvation, though in practice it seems, at times, instantaneous.

Peace to you

I would argue that Ephesians 2 is not giving a chronological order (regenerated and then believes) but rather is talking about God making us who were dead in our sins alive in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1–5 : And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[Brightfame52]

I see nobody, including myself, denying the work of the Holy Spirit. And as I stated...believe in the process, whatever order you believe you were led to believe. Other's don't agree with your intepretation.

I believe the work of the Holy Spirit in those verses is regeneration, it just says it in another way, sanctification of the Spirit and thats unto belief of the Truth/Faith or as Peter says " unto obedience" which I believe is the obedience of faith

Rom 16:26

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

So regeneration is an absolute indispensable work of God in order to believe the Truth.

And you and others can disagree all you want, but yeah, its my interpretation, given by scripture analysis

 

[AustinC]

I would argue that Ephesians 2 is not giving a chronological order (regenerated and then believes) but rather is talking about God making us who were dead in our sins alive in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1–5 : And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

What does God tell us about when God saved us by grace?

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"

We either hold to what God tells us, or we look for something outside of God's word that fits our desires.

 

[JonC]

What does God tell us about when God saved us by grace?

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"

We either hold to what God tells us, or we look for something outside of God's word that fits our desires.

Strawman, bro....strawman.

I never argued against the passage. God made us alive when we were dead in our sins.

We either hold to Scripture or we mold Scripture into a form that fits our desires.

 

[canadyjd]

I would argue that Ephesians 2 is not giving a chronological order (regenerated and then believes) but rather is talking about God making us who were dead in our sins alive in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1–5 : And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

JonC, can’t you see the point of the passage is that God took this action before we believed? The argument has been made that God waits for us to believe before He takes action (choses us for salvation)

This passage does show, clearly and specifically, that God takes the action that leads to salvation while we are completely unable (dead in trespasses and sin) because He loves us with great love.

That is a “chronological order”

peace to you

 

[JonC]

JonC, can’t you see the point of the passage is that God took this action before we believed? The argument has been made that God waits for us to believe before He takes action (choses us for salvation)

This passage does show, clearly and specifically, that God takes the action that leads to salvation while we are completely unable (dead in trespasses and sin) because He loves us with great love.

That is a “chronological order”

peace to you

I see your point, but at the same time you are reading into the actual passage. It does not divorce regeneration from belief, much less provide a chronological order related to repentance and belief.

 

[canadyjd]

I see your point, but at the same time you are reading into the actual passage. It does not divorce regeneration from belief, much less provide a chronological order related to repentance and belief.

I gave you the chronological order based on the passage. God acts before we do. That is clear from the passage. The other argument is that God waits for us to act before He will act.

Another consideration for the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is how Paul uses his words in similar passages. It is clear in Ephesians 2 that Paul demonstrates God acting before man acts.

So… when considering whether Paul uses “through” to refer to salvation or choosing in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, it is only consistent with Paul’s other usage for “through” to refer to salvation and not choosing.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I gave you the chronological order based on the passage. God acts before we do. That is clear from the passage. The other argument is that God waits for us to act before He will act.

Another consideration for the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is how Paul uses his words in similar passages. It is clear in Ephesians 2 that Paul demonstrates God acting before man acts.

So… when considering whether Paul uses “through” to refer to salvation or choosing in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, it is only consistent with Paul’s other usage for “through” to refer to salvation and not choosing.

peace to you

You keep providing verses that say we were lost before we are saved, that God saves us, ect. BUT none of those passages give a chronological order in the sense that one must be regenerated and then believe.

You can't simply show that God recreates one that is spiritually dead and say that states one must be regenerated before believing. You are reading into the passage.

A just as legitimate argument (one I am NOT actually making) is that God causes one who is dead to believe and then that person is regenerated.

My position is that while we were sinners Christ died for us, and whoever believes will be saved. Regeneration and belief are not chronical events but aspects of God's act of salvation.

It's like arguing one must first repent and then believe (or vice versa) when repentance and belief are different ways of looking at the same faith.

 

[canadyjd]

You keep providing verses that say we were lost before we are saved, that God saves us, ect. BUT none of those passages give a chronological order in the sense that one must be regenerated and then believe.

You can't simply show that God recreates one that is spiritually dead and say that states one must be regenerated before believing. You are reading into the passage.

A just as legitimate argument (one I am NOT actually making) is that God causes one who is dead to believe and then that person is regenerated.

My position is that while we were sinners Christ died for us, and whoever believes will be saved. Regeneration and belief are not chronical events but aspects of God's act of salvation.

It's like arguing one must first repent and then believe (or vice versa) when repentance and belief are different ways of looking at the same faith.

No JonC, I keep giving scripture that demonstrate God acts first, while we are lost, to bring us to salvation. The other argument is that God waits until man acts before He acts.

Thsts the point of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and Ephesians 2, as well as the 1 Peter 1 passage that has been mentioned.

I read nothing “into” the passage. I simply read the passage and believe what it’s says.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

No JonC, I keep giving scripture that demonstrate God acts first, while we are lost, to bring us to salvation. The other argument is that God waits until man acts before He acts.

Thsts the point of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and Ephesians 2, as well as the 1 Peter 1 passage that has been mentioned.

I read nothing “into” the passage. I simply read the passage and believe what it’s says.

peace to you

No. My argument was NEVER that man acts first. I'm talking solely on regeneration and belief.

I think you may have mixed my comments with others (I think we may have been talking past one another).

 

[canadyjd]

No. My argument was NEVER that man acts first. I'm talking solely on regeneration and belief.

I think you may have mixed my comments with others (I think we may have been talking past one another).

I never claimed you said man acts first. I simply pointed out that, imo, you were mischaracterizing the scripture I quoted as saying “we are lost before we are saved…”, which is not what I said.

The bottom line is (back to the OP) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 has two possible meanings depending on what the word “through” modifies.

Is Paul telling us that God choses us based on our belief and then grants us salvation OR is Paul telling us God choses us and then God Holy Spirit sets us apart (sanctifies) for salvation by belief in the truth.

Those are the two major ways to look at the passage.

I believe consistent usage by Paul in other passages like Ephesians 2 gives support for “through” referring to salvation and not to choosing.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Strawman, bro....strawman.

I never argued against the passage. God made us alive when we were dead in our sins.

We either hold to Scripture or we mold Scripture into a form that fits our desires.

Okay...so...
What does God tell us about when God saved us by grace?

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"

No strawman in my question, Jon.

What does it mean that God made us alive when we were dead?

Does it mean something different than God causing us to be born again, as Jesus told us in John 3?

 

[JonC]

Okay...so...
What does God tell us about when God saved us by grace?

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"

No strawman in my question, Jon.

What does it mean that God made us alive when we were dead?

Does it mean something different than God causing us to be born again, as Jesus told us in John 3?

It means what it says. When we were dead in sin God made us alive in Christ. It is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves.

What part of that do you believe I disagree with???

 

[JonC]

I never claimed you said man acts first. I simply pointed out that, imo, you were mischaracterizing the scripture I quoted as saying “we are lost before we are saved…”, which is not what I said.

The bottom line is (back to the OP) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 has two possible meanings depending on what the word “through” modifies.

Is Paul telling us that God choses us based on our belief and then grants us salvation OR is Paul telling us God choses us and then God Holy Spirit sets us apart (sanctifies) for salvation by belief in the truth.

Those are the two major ways to look at the passage.

I believe consistent usage by Paul in other passages like Ephesians 2 gives support for “through” referring to salvation and not to choosing.

peace to you

Again, I think we are talking past one another.

2 Thessalonians 2:13–14 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The passage is NOT a chronological order stating regeneration comes first and then belief (or vice versa). Both sides are reading into Scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

Again, I think we are talking past one another.

2 Thessalonians 2:13–14 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The passage is NOT a chronological order stating regeneration comes first and then belief (or vice versa). Both sides are reading into Scripture.

I don’t remember saying that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are regenerated before belief. If you can show me where I said that, I will sure take a look.

I have only repeated what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2.

1. God chose us from the beginning to salvation.

THROUGH….

2. God Holy Spirit sets us apart (sanctified us) and belief in the truth.

Through modifies salvation, not choosing, and that does establish an “order” for how salvation (a right relationship with God) occurs.

But, I think you are correct, we are talking past each other. The question is why?

I have explained several times what I have said and gave scripture to support it. You have yet to acknowledge my position, other than saying I am “reading into” the text.

So, yes, we are talking past each other.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I don’t remember saying that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are regenerated before belief.

Thank you for the conversation as well. My only pont was that Scripture does not divide regeneration and belief into chronological events. I think you may have lumped me in with other posts (which is easy to do) because you and I seem to be more in agreement than not here.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you for the conversation as well. My only pont was that Scripture does not divide regeneration and belief into chronological events. I think you may have lumped me in with other posts (which is easy to do) because you and I seem to be more in agreement than not here.

Thanks for the comments.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

It means what it says. When we were dead in sin God made us alive in Christ. It is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves.

What part of that do you believe I disagree with???

Why then are you arguing against canadyjd? This is what he's been telling you and you keep arguing with him. Why?