2 Thessalonians 2:13 What does it say?

[canadyjd]

Mounce cites the ESV mistranslation in his effort to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


BTW, the sanctifying work of the spirit, found in 1 Peter 1:1-2 clearly shows the preposition modifies chose.

From Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those temporarily residing abroad (in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia) who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ's blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure! (NET)

The phrase "from the beginning" refers to an unspecified time, but when it appears in a passage, usually the context points to a particular time frame, such as from the inauguration of the New Covenant to the end of the age using the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

1 Peter 1:1-2 doesn’t say anyone is chosen by God because they have belief in the truth.

Who are chosen…. according to the foreknowledge of God the father…. by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience…. and for sprinkling with Jesus’s Christ blood….

The “by” does refer to chosen in this verse but it tells how that happens

1. God Holy Spirit sets that person apart for obedience and….

2. for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.

All I see in this verse after “chosen” is the work of God Holy Spirt in bringing the person into a right relationship with God. I don’t see the person doing anything.

If you see a reference to “belief in the truth” in this verse, please point it out.

peace to you

 

[Van]

1 Peter 1:1-2 doesn’t say anyone is chosen by God because they have belief in the truth.SNIP

And that was not my claim, so yet more fabrication of strawmen to knock down.

The issue is whether "en" addresses the noun salvation or the verb chose. The vast majority of English Translations agree "en" modifies "chose" thus providing the "how" and "why" of the choice.

And we all should identify agenda driven corruptions of God's inspired text as false claims, based on the well studied views of scholars, such as Dr. D. Wallace.

 

[Van]

From the beginning of the Age of Grace, God chose individuals based on crediting their faith as righteousness by setting them apart within Christ's spiritual body.

Rather than accept this obvious truth, many commentators try to rewrite the verse to mesh with their mistaken view of Ephesians 1:4.

Their interpretation changes "from the beginning" to "before the beginning" to mesh with Ephesians 1:4. John Calvin is one of those mistaken commentators.

Rather than being chosen based on faith in the truth, they claim the idea those chosen were to be saved through faith in the truth, denying the conditional election clearly taught by the verse.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 CSB
But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Just reading the verse, the plain sense is God chose the Thessalonians by setting those who believe in the truth apart.

Sanctification has two meanings, (1) to be set apart for a purpose, as in being transferred spiritually into Christ, and (2) to be made holy by the washing of regeneration and to be being made holy through progressively becoming more Christlike under the tutelage of our indwelt Holy Spirit. Clearly the first meaning accomplishes God's choice.

 

[canadyjd]

And that was not my claim, so yet more fabrication of strawmen to knock down.

The issue is whether "en" addresses the noun salvation or the verb chose. The vast majority of English Translations agree "en" modifies "chose" thus providing the "how" and "why" of the choice.

And we all should identify agenda driven corruptions of God's inspired text as false claims, based on the well studied views of scholars, such as Dr. D. Wallace.

And my point is that 1 Peter 1:1-2 is consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in that they are both focused on the work of God in salvation.

I have acknowledged the “en” in the 1 Peter passage modifies “chosen” and it doesn’t help you argument at all that “ev” in 2 Thessalonians modifies “chosen”. There are grammatical differences in these passage that supports “ev” is modifying “salvation”.

I will accept Dr. Mounce’s well thought out analysis based on Biblical Greek grammar that “ev” in the 2 Thessalonians passage is referring to salvation, not choosing.

It is unseemly to be accusing a respected scholar of “false claims”.

If you want to link to another scholar that has analyzed the Biblical Greek and came to a different conclusion I’ll be happy to consider it.

peace to you

 

[37818]

FYI, ". . . to salvation . . . ." in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is "ies."

 

[canadyjd]

FYI, ". . . to salvation . . . ." in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is "ies."

Thanks for the comment. Look a couple of words further.

The word in question is “ev” that can be translated “in or through..”, depending on the context.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

From the beginning of the Age of Grace, God chose individuals based on crediting their faith as righteousness by setting them apart within Christ's spiritual body.
...
[SNIP]
...
Rather than being chosen based on faith in the truth, they claim the idea those chosen were to be saved through faith in the truth, denying the conditional election clearly taught by the verse.

Do you understand that what you are stating openly denies grace?

Do you understand that what you are asserting is, in fact, salvation by works?

You cannot correctly understand 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as long as you misunderstand grace while focusing on works.

Van, your presupposition is incorrect. You add conditions which by its very nature eliminates grace as an option. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not add your conditions.

 

[Van]

And my point is that 1 Peter 1:1-2 is consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in that they are both focused on the work of God in salvation.

I have acknowledged the “en” in the 1 Peter passage modifies “chosen” and it doesn’t help you argument at all that “ev” in 2 Thessalonians modifies “chosen”. There are grammatical differences in these passage that supports “ev” is modifying “salvation”.

I will accept Dr. Mounce’s well thought out analysis based on Biblical Greek grammar that “ev” in the 2 Thessalonians passage is referring to salvation, not choosing.

It is unseemly to be accusing a respected scholar of “false claims”.

If you want to link to another scholar that has analyzed the Biblical Greek and came to a different conclusion.

peace to you

1 Peter 1:1-2 demonstrates "en" tells how "chose" is accomplished in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
The fact that "en" refers to chose makes my case for the verse teaching conditional election.
Nothing, repeat nothing, repeat, nothing in the Grammar of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 suggests the noun salvation is an inspired mistake and God should have used a verb.

Dr. Mounce's analysis is not based on Greek Grammar, it ignores the grammar and imposes an agenda driven rewrite.

It is unseemly to claim believers should tolerate false doctrine.

I have cited several times the translations of the NASB, NKJV, LEB and WEB, and in post #24 I cited the CSB.

 

[Van]

Do you understand that what you are stating openly denies grace?

Do you understand that what you are asserting is, in fact, salvation by works?

You cannot correctly understand 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as long as you misunderstand grace while focusing on works.

Van, your presupposition is incorrect. You add conditions which by its very nature eliminates grace as an option. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not add your conditions.

Here is another post addressing me for all four points,
1) Do I understand
2) Do I understand
3) You misunderstand
4) You add conditions.

Then we have the usual false charges:
1) Openly denies grace
2) asserting salvation by works
3) eliminates grace.

But here is what I actually said:

From the beginning of the Age of Grace, God chose individuals based on crediting their faith as righteousness by setting them apart within Christ's spiritual body. [God crediting our faith is a work of grace by God]

Rather than accept this obvious truth, many commentators try to rewrite the verse to mesh with their mistaken view of Ephesians 1:4.

Their interpretation changes "from the beginning" to "before the beginning" to mesh with Ephesians 1:4. John Calvin is one of those mistaken commentators.

Rather than being chosen based on faith in the truth, they claim the idea those chosen were to be saved through faith in the truth, denying the conditional election clearly taught by the verse. [being chosen based on God crediting our filthy rag faith as righteousness is to be chosen by God's grace]

 

[Van]

Being chosen for salvation describes the purpose of the election. The majority of our English translations render the preposition "eis" as for with the meaning of presenting the purpose. However several go with the archaic "unto"salvation and others with "to" salvation. However, if the meaning is not instrumentality (for the purpose of) then the directional meaning is going "into salvation." Thus the phrase either provides the purpose, for salvation, or the result, into salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

1 Peter 1:1-2 demonstrates "en" tells how "chose" is accomplished in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
The fact that "en" refers to chose makes my case for the verse teaching conditional election.
Nothing, repeat nothing, repeat, nothing in the Grammar of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 suggests the noun salvation is an inspired mistake and God should have used a verb.

Dr. Mounce's analysis is not based on Greek Grammar, it ignores the grammar and imposes an agenda driven rewrite.

It is unseemly to claim believers should tolerate false doctrine.

I have cited several times the translations of the NASB, NKJV, LEB and WEB, and in post #24 I cited the CSB.

Your own statement here disproves your analysis of 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The “chosen” in 1 Peter is accomplished by..

1. God Holy Spirit setting the person apart and…

2. God Holy Spirit sprinkling those folks with the blood of Christ

The “salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is accomplished by…

1. God Holy Spirit setting us apart

2. Our belief in the truth.

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere,… let me say it again to help you understand…, NOWHERE in 1 Peter 1 is there any mention of “belief in the truth” as the condition for salvation.

You are applying the context of “chosen” in 1 Peter 1 to 2 Thessalonians 2 in an attempt to support your claim that God chooses based on our belief in the truth.

It is a poor analysis of the text.

Please write a paper and submit it to a peer reviewed publication proclaiming that Dr. Mounce is agenda driven, doesn’t understand biblical Greek and is making false claims.

Until other scholars consider your claims, I will trust the Biblical Greek scholar that has literally written textbooks on biblical Greek over your very poor analysis.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Here is another post addressing me for all four points,
1) Do I understand
2) Do I understand
3) You misunderstand
4) You add conditions.

Then we have the usual false charges:
1) Openly denies grace
2) asserting salvation by works
3) eliminates grace.

But here is what I actually said:

From the beginning of the Age of Grace, God chose individuals based on crediting their faith as righteousness by setting them apart within Christ's spiritual body. [God crediting our faith is a work of grace by God]

Rather than accept this obvious truth, many commentators try to rewrite the verse to mesh with their mistaken view of Ephesians 1:4.

Their interpretation changes "from the beginning" to "before the beginning" to mesh with Ephesians 1:4. John Calvin is one of those mistaken commentators.

Rather than being chosen based on faith in the truth, they claim the idea those chosen were to be saved through faith in the truth, denying the conditional election clearly taught by the verse. [being chosen based on God crediting our filthy rag faith as righteousness is to be chosen by God's grace]

We all know what you said.
We all know that you cannot conceive of how it is that you are killing grace with your assertion.
How many times must we show you in scripture that your assertion regarding 2Thessalonians 2:13 is wrong?
We address it, ad nauseam, and you still will not stop teaching conditional (based upon works) election, which is utterly anathema to God and His holy word.

I laughed out loud when you declared that Mounce got it wrong, while you declare your interpretation to be right. I literally laughed out loud because that is the equivalent of a young student telling a professor of many decades that the professor is wrong and the young student's assertion is right, no matter what anyone says.
Van, just give it a rest already. You are free to hold your untenable position, but don't go tell us that great Christian scholars got it wrong while you are the only one getting it right. That's just laughable.

 

[Van]

SNIP
The “chosen” in 1 Peter is accomplished by..
SNIP
2. God Holy Spirit sprinkling those folks with the blood of Christ

The “salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is accomplished by…

1. God Holy Spirit setting us apart

2. Our belief in the truth.

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere,… let me say it again to help you understand…, NOWHERE in 1 Peter 1 is there any mention of “belief in the truth” as the condition for salvation.
SNIP
peace to you

Once again truth is ignored and false charges are fabricated.
Did I say being chosen is "accomplished" by being sprinkled with the blood of Christ? Nope
What did I actually say?
"1 Peter 1:1-2 demonstrates "en" tells how "chose" is accomplished in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Thus "en" is used to present the how, and the why, set apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[canadyjd]

Once again truth is ignored and false charges are fabricated.
Did I say being chosen is "accomplished" by being sprinkled with the blood of Christ? Nope
What did I actually say?
"1 Peter 1:1-2 demonstrates "en" tells how "chose" is accomplished in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Thus "en" is used to present the how, and the why, set apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

Once again, you ignore what I stated and make false charges against me.

I accurately stated that you were attempting to use the use of “ev” in 1 Peter to support your claim of the use of “ev” in 2 Thessalonians..

I then politely explained why I disagree.

It is useless to attempt a discussion with you, since you will never acknowledge what I actually say, and then just make up things I didn’t say

I think I will avoid commenting on your posts.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

First… they are chosen from the beginning to salvation. That seems pretty self explanatory.

Actually it isn't, because the salvation Paul is speaking about, in context, is not salvation from hell, but salvation from the tribulation period. That's what the Thessalonians, who were already saved, were worried about.

Please observe the emphasized portions:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 BUT we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [FROM ALL HE JUST MENTIONED] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

it occurred from the beginning of human existence.

But Paul did not say that. That is typical insertion.

The question now is from the beginning of what? That’s the only time Paul uses the word beginning in both his epistles to the Thessalonians. We must then look to his other epistles.

Third… “sanctification of the Spirit”.

God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Interpretation:
When we believed the truth, the Spirit operated our sanctification [setting apart] to effect our salvation from the day of Christ.

That's the context. Calvinism and context never go together.

 

[canadyjd]

Actually it isn't, because the salvation Paul is speaking about, in context, is not salvation from hell, but salvation from the tribulation period. That's what the Thessalonians, who were already saved, were worried about.

Please observe the emphasized portions:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 BUT we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [FROM ALL HE JUST MENTIONED] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



But Paul did not say that. That is typical insertion.

The question now is from the beginning of what? That’s the only time Paul uses the word beginning in both his epistles to the Thessalonians. We must then look to his other epistles.

View attachment 7738



God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Interpretation:
When we believed the truth, the Spirit operated our sanctification [setting apart] to effect our salvation from the day of Christ.

That's the context. Calvinism and context never go together.

Thanks for the comment.

That is an interesting position, but the early Christian Church experienced many periods of intense persecution, so how exactly were they saved from that persecution?

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Thanks for the comment.

That is an interesting position, but the early Christian Church experienced many periods of intense persecution, so how exactly were they saved from that persecution?

peace to you

the day of Christ brother, the day of the Lord, the terrible, terrible day of the Lord, not just some "period of persecution". And that salvation from the tribulation remains our comfort today.

 

[canadyjd]

the day of Christ brother, the day of the Lord, the terrible, terrible day of the Lord, not just some "period of persecution". And that salvation from the tribulation remains our comfort today.

Well, so much of what Jesus taught, and His Apostles taught, is that Christians can expect persecution and tribulation before the 2nd coming… but that is off topic.

The Thessalonians are concerned about those who died prior to Christ’s return, that they might miss out in heaven.

Paul is assuring them God had chosen them to salvation and God Holy Spirit would make certain that right relationship with God would occur.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Well, so much of what Jesus taught, and His Apostles taught, is that Christians can expect persecution and tribulation before the 2nd coming… but that is off topic.

The Thessalonians are concerned about those who died prior to Christ’s return, that they might miss out in heaven.

Paul is assuring them God had chosen them to salvation and God Holy Spirit would make certain that right relationship with God would occur.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

No. He literally tells you they are worried about "the day of Christ" and the reign of the antichrist; as many are today.
I'm sorry but there is nothing controversial or remotely debatable about this to anyone that reads.