#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[tinytim]

Now you're making up promises.

What part of John 3:16 don't you understand....

John 3:16
(16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

SHALL NOT PERISH!!!!!

That is a promise, along with so many others throught the NT, that we are eternally secure......

eternally means never ending!

 

[J. Jump]

Yeah, what love....!!!!!

And yet you accuse me of twisting words. Just because it doesn't meet "your" definition of love doesn't mean it's not love.

Sure sounds like love to me. Better to be disciplined for a 1,000 years than to be kicked out of the family forever, and ever and ever and ever and ever. That is mercy and love, whether you want to believe it is or not.

Send His child to Hell after he promised not too,

Again please show me Scripture. Easy to make statements with no backing.

Right there, you just redefined mercy....

No it just didn't meet "your" definition so it must be redefined. Strawman alert.

This doctrine is absurd....

And yet you and no one else is able to refute it. And you try so hard and fail so much that all you are left with is to slander the person and as Diggin has resorted to calling in question our very salvation. Now that's classy if I've ever seen it . . . oh wait no it's not.

in context... only the wood, hay and straw will be burnt.
Useless works done by the unfaithful.... unless the faithful does useless works.... which would make even less sense.

Tim are you kidding me. You are equating this passage with a judgment of the saved and the unsaved. Come on now. The Bible never speaks of the saved and the unsaved at the same judgment.

This is speaking of the bema seat judgment of Christ which is ONLY for believers. Believers works will be tried and yes believers can produce wood, hay and stubble.

You say it right, but you don't even believe what you right. The unfaithful (saved individuals who are disobedient) will have nothing but wood, hay and stubble and will suffer loss just as the text says. The faithful (saved individuals who are obedient, overcomers) will have gold, silver and precious stones that stand.

This is NOT a picture of the saved and unsaved together.

 

[tinytim]

Great question. As far as I can see if one believes that Christ is the King, that He is going to one day return and set up His kingdom and that is will be a literal 1,000-year kingdom and they are mixing that faith with obedient works (will of the Father) and they are confessing their sins as necessary then they will enter the kingdom.

However, the question that I believe you and other pastor/teachers are going to have to answer to is why you led the children underneath your care astray by telling them that there is no need for them to be faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians, because everyone gets their little piece of paradise no matter how they conduct their lives on this earth.

Not going to be a fun time I don't think. But hey what do you have to be concerned about you don't believe it anyway right Everybody will receive a crown of some sort and all will be well.

See thats just it... I don't beleive every Christian will receive a crown... they may be there but be crownless....

And why are you using guilt and fear to motivate Christians to serve God...That is what this boils down to...

Scare them into serving him...
God wants people to serve him not out of fear, but Love.
Love based on who He is and what He has done.

But if you don't believe that God is able to place you in his kingdom, I understand why you don't serve him out of appreciation... you have nothing to appreciate.... except for what YOU do for Him.

That is works...
Plain and simple, the kingdom comes with salvation.
I'm sorry you have to live a life of fear.
God is not a terrorist.

I gotta go get some things done....I may be back later.

 

[James_Newman]

So do you expect to never die? I mean if you die, that would make God a LIAR wouldn't it? You have a promise that says you will never perish, therefore you cannot die. Or do you suppose perish must have some type of qualification attached to it?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Why not believe they used that word like that...
They have been redefining words like that althrough these pages...

This is just one example of how twisted their cultic teachings are..

"God is a God of mercy...he sends his children to Hell"

How twisted is that...

I thank God that I serve a God that is faithful, and keeps his promises.

Amen, Tim!

The same serpent that beguiled Eve, back in the garden has slithered into the forums of the BB to again try to deceive using God's Word and turn the truth into a lie, 'Yea, and hath God said...?

They are trying to cast doubt and fear into the minds and hearts of Christians. God is not the author of fear.

They are trying to divide the body of Christ, yet Paul wrote Christ is not divided.

They work all right, but the very work they are doing is contrary to what is written and required in the Holy Scripture. They are working to bring division.

 

[webdog]

So do you expect to never die? I mean if you die, that would make God a LIAR wouldn't it? You have a promise that says you will never perish, therefore you cannot die. Or do you suppose perish must have some type of qualification attached to it?

Perishing and dying are two things. "Yeah though I walk through the shadow of death..."

 

[tinytim]

Tim are you kidding me. You are equating this passage with a judgment of the saved and the unsaved. Come on now. The Bible never speaks of the saved and the unsaved at the same judgment.

This is speaking of the bema seat judgment of Christ which is ONLY for believers. Believers works will be tried and yes believers can produce wood, hay and stubble.

You say it right, but you don't even believe what you right. The unfaithful (saved individuals who are disobedient) will have nothing but wood, hay and stubble and will suffer loss just as the text says. The faithful (saved individuals who are obedient, overcomers) will have gold, silver and precious stones that stand.

This is NOT a picture of the saved and unsaved together.

I agree... it is a picture of the saved, both faithful and unfaithful, but look at the last verse....

Even though they lose all their works, they are not burnt themselves..
They do not go to Hell, like you are trying to convince everyone they do.

That was what I was saying...

I know it is the Bema Seat... That is where we will get rewards..
or not, but will be saved as by fire..

(Ok, I'm outta here for now:tongue3: )

 

[J. Jump]

but it does not say that these people are saved individuals.

Neither does it say that they are unsaved. So how do we know who this is speaking of? What is your standard to say that this is the unsaved when the text doesn't say that?

The Bible tells us that God's Children are joint heirs with Christ, so it should be obvious that those who do not inherit the kingdom are not children.

Please show me in both the OT and the NT where the Bible says that ALL children are joint heirs and ALL children become adopted sons and that ALL children will rule and reign.

No one has been able to do it yet, so I look forward to your response.

Was Christ bruised for our iniquities...or wasn't He? Saved people are capable of working iniquity, but Christ's blood covered that. He chastens those in that state...not abandons them!

Aboslutely He was. But forgiveness is not an automatic as you suggest. I John tells us that IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. But IF we do not confess our sins then He is just as faithful and just as just to not forgive those sins.

Christ told Peter at the footwashing that IF he didn't let Jesus wash him then he would have no part WITH Him. Just as IF we don't let Jesus continually wash us we will have no part WITH Him.

Christ's blood ONLY covers our sins if we confess. If we are unrepentant then Christ's blood will not cover that.

And there is NOWHERE in Scripture that says discipline stops after death. If there is please show me.

How you and others like you can think that one can live their life any ole way they please in blantant disobedience and open rebellion and then everything be fine just because they kicked the bucket is really unbelievable.

Why is Christ going to wed Himself to a disobedient Christian? Why is Christ going to turn over rulership to a person that is disobedient.

That's just like saying you owned a business and you hired a thief and said I know you are a thief, but watch my store for me while I'm on vacation.

It's not going to happen as much as you would like to think it is. Talking about something that makes NO sense.

I can't believe you used the word "mercy" in that sentence...

Well just because you can not see or choose not to see the mercy doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

 

[J. Jump]

See thats just it... I don't beleive every Christian will receive a crown... they may be there but be crownless....

But yet you have said before that all Christians will rule and reign I believe. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you don't believe that all Christians will rule and reign then what are the unfaithful going to be doing? And where are they going to be?

And why are you using guilt and fear to motivate Christians to serve God...That is what this boils down to...

Because the Bible does. We are to work out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

God wants people to serve him not out of fear, but Love.

Absolutely agree, but fear is the BEGINNING of wisdom.

In your portrayal of the kingdom there is NO motivation to serve, because I can have the whole world and still rule and reign in the kingdom. So why deny all the desires of this world if I can still have all of the best in the world to come?

But if you don't believe that God is able to place you in his kingdom, I understand why you don't serve him out of appreciation... you have nothing to appreciate.... except for what YOU do for Him.

Once again a statement that you either don't understand what we have said or you are just flat out lying. Which is it?

Because NO one has ever said that it is something WE do for Him. It is quite the opposite. It is God's grace at work in us. God does for us what He requires of us and then gives us credit as if we did it ourselves. My works are actually His works, but He calls them my works.

Paul said "I" have finished the race, and "I" have fought the good fight. Do you think Paul was puffing himself up because he had done so many wonderful things?

the kingdom comes with salvation.

Scripture please. John 3 makes it pretty clear that it doesn't. Several places in the gospels make it pretty clear that it doesn't.

 

[J. Jump]

They are trying to cast doubt and fear into the minds and hearts of Christians. God is not the author of fear.

You must have a pretty big eraser or a really big black permanent marker then!

They are trying to divide the body of Christ, yet Paul wrote Christ is not divided.

Yet you divide Christ by saying that Christians can not be found in the OT. Hmmmmm. . . . as long as it fits your theology I guess huh?

They work all right, but the very work they are doing is contrary to what is written and required in the Holy Scripture.

And once again all bark with absolutely no bite. Please show Scripture evidence of your claim.

 

[J. Jump]

Perishing and dying are two things.

And yet we are the ones that get accused of redefining words :laugh: I guess if it doesn't fit your theology then it must mean something else huh?

 

[James_Newman]

Perishing and dying are two things. "Yeah though I walk through the shadow of death..."

Prove that by scripture.

Luke 8:24
24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

 

[webdog]

Neither does it say that they are unsaved. So how do we know who this is speaking of? What is your standard to say that this is the unsaved when the text doesn't say that?

Um...when the Bible states a certain group will not inherit the kingdom, it's a safe bet to say they are not saved. Much of your arguments are done from silence, but here goes:

Please show me in both the OT and the NT where the Bible says that ALL children are joint heirs and ALL children become adopted sons and that ALL children will rule and reign.

No one has been able to do it yet, so I look forward to your response.

I know you will try to twist this, but this is Scripture plain and simple.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Aboslutely He was. But forgiveness is not an automatic as you suggest. I John tells us that IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. But IF we do not confess our sins then He is just as faithful and just as just to not forgive those sins.

Here you wrongly assume the converse of a statement is automatically true.

Christ told Peter at the footwashing that IF he didn't let Jesus wash him then he would have no part WITH Him. Just as IF we don't let Jesus continually wash us we will have no part WITH Him.

Continually wash?!? Christ died once for ALL SIN. He either did or didn't, pick one.

Christ's blood ONLY covers our sins if we confess. If we are unrepentant then Christ's blood will not cover that.

So Christ can only do what we allow Him to do? You seriously don't believe that, do you?

And there is NOWHERE in Scripture that says discipline stops after death. If there is please show me.

...once you show me a true child of God goes to hell after they die. God's wrath was appeased for those in Christ on the cross. You teach another gospel...

How you and others like you can think that one can live their life any ole way they please in blantant disobedience and open rebellion and then everything be fine just because they kicked the bucket is really unbelievable.

What's unbelievable are these lame strawman arguments. If a child of God can continue to live "any ole way" without being chastened...to the point of death, they are not a true believer. I have witnessed this firsthand.

Why is Christ going to wed Himself to a disobedient Christian? Why is Christ going to turn over rulership to a person that is disobedient.

Does the Bible teach the church is the bride...or doesn't it? Who said Christ would make the disobedient christian rulers? Are you now arguing that the disobedient Christian is IN the kingdom? Make up your mind!

Well just because you can not see or choose not to see the mercy doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

...nor does it mean your "brand" of God's mercy is truth. In fact, it's quite contradictory with Scripture.

 

[webdog]

And yet we are the ones that get accused of redefining words :laugh: I guess if it doesn't fit your theology then it must mean something else huh?

Try context...correct context.

Is your name "pot" or "kettle"?

 

[Benjamin]

There is only one salvation and it comes from being in Christ, the works are His, a true believer can not be taken out of His hand. You can not show in scripture that there are two salvations, if by your understanding you think you can, please do so.

Again you say all those things that are really pie the sky type of statements and then provide not one single Scirptural proof. Not even a cherry picked verse to prove your point.

The scriptures are written to believers, and some can not understand that true believers are in Christ and Christ is not divided.

Salvation is eternal and that is EXACTLY what we have said. But time after time after time after time after time after time it has been shown in both the OT and the NT that works are not required for entrance into what you would like to interpret as a second salvation of the kingdom, faith is what makes one righteous. You just can not get around that without denying Scripture.

Until you can realize there is no distinction between eternal salvation and salvation of the soul there will be no understanding and any attempt to understand would be in vain, because you are going to constantly come up with false statements such as this:

Something else IS required, not for eternal salvation no, but to stand before Christ blameless on that day one is going to have to prove themselves according to Philippians 2. And you prove yourself with WORKS.

You don’t understand that all have sinned, none are righteous, no not one, oops wait a minute there is One that is perfect, Christ, and if we are born again in His Spirit we are cleansed from our sins and without Him we can do NOTHING.
It just really cracks me up that we get accused of preaching a works based salvation and then you all come along and backload a second type kingdom salvation with works and continue to make accusations.

Your beliefs just don't pass the Scripture test as bad as you want to hold on to them. If your kingdom doctrine fails the test, the kingdom doctrine must go and the Word of God must stand. It's really that plain and simple.

Now that doesn't give one a license to go out and sin, but we have an Advocate before the Father when we do sin. Confess your sins and He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sins. Don't confess your sins He is faithful and just to not forgive them as well!

No you don't understand. That's why you shouldn't have made the last two statements. Confession isn’t something we are perfect at; we do not have a license to go out and sin, but we do have forgiveness in Him by our love for what He has done for us and try to obey in that love, we are repentant in that love by belief in knowing what He has done for us and suffer with Him being convicted in the Holy Spirit which guides us into being a new creature, in Him.

It's amazing this has to be said so many times, but I can cherry pick verses out of Scripture and prove just about anything I want to if I'm willing to take them out of their original contexts.

If you’ve committed one sin you’ve committed them all, and one is all it takes to keep you from heaven.

Now I know you don't believe a Christian can be made righteous by faith alone, and you preach if they are disobedient they will face a second salvation disregarding the impossibility of being perfect meaning they are later forfeiting the promise in a second kingdom salvation, but there's just ZERO Scriptural evidence to back that belief up. If there is please show it, because no one to date has been able to.

So says JJump, but I'll take Scripture of so says Jump any day no offense.

 

[webdog]

Prove that by scripture.

Luke 8:24
24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

"Perish" is used in both instances. Does it mean the same thing in both places? Exactly....

 

[J. Jump]

What part of John 3:16 don't you understand....

John 3:16
(16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

SHALL NOT PERISH!!!!!

So what is the answer to James' question? Is God lying because there are a number of those that have perished. And both you and I are going to perish at some point.

That is a promise, along with so many others throught the NT, that we are eternally secure......

Again a statement that shows you don't understand what we are talking about. NOONE has said that a Christian is eternally unsecure.

eternally means never ending!

But here's the thing Tim. What does the word aionios mean? Does it mean everlasting every time it is used? No it doesn't. It is a Greek adjective that is based on the word aion which means age or a period of time with a beginning and an ending.

Context tells us whether or not it is speaking of everlasting (eternal is a terrible translation of that word regardless of which side you fall on). So let's look at the context of this verse.

John tells us that whosoever believes (present, active, participle) this life. So if this is speaking of eternal salvation then one can not be eternally secure, because they would have to continue believing until they died. If they were ever unbelieving then they would not be able to claim this promise.

Those that don't believe will perish, so the question that has to be asked is how can a dead man die? One can not die unless they are alive. This is speaking of spiritually alive people. Becuase if spiritually alive people don't continue to believe then they will perish.

You can save your life (soul) now and lose it (perish) in the age to come or you can lose your life (soul) now (die/perish to self now) and find life in the age to come.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose/forfeit his soul?

I could go on, but there is probably no need.

 

[J. Jump]

Try context...correct context.

Is your name "pot" or "kettle"?

Full of those strawmen are you :smilewinkgrin: The same EXACT thing can be said of you!

 

[webdog]

So what is the answer to James' question? Is God lying because there are a number of those that have perished. And both you and I are going to perish at some point.

God's not lying...you just don't know how to rightly divide the Word. Learn what perish means in proper context, and let Bible explain Bible.

 

[James_Newman]

There is only one salvation and it comes from being in Christ, the works are His, a true believer can not be taken out of His hand.

Don't forget to stay in the ship!

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Or is that maybe a different salvation than the one salvation that there only is?