21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[John of Japan]

I see two more off topic posts, nitpicking and claiming the idiom was not an idiom. No mention of the actual topic, literal translation coupled with footnotes to explain where the literal meaning is not the intended message. For example, "break the arm" idiomatic meaning "break the strength."

Actually, the original topic was the 21st Century KJV, not your rabbit trail.

Now another of your errors is assuming that "idiomatic" (an adjective) means the same as "idiom" (a noun). They are not the same. An "idiomatic" rendering is not the rendering of an idiom. Here is a definition: "idiomatic Peculiar to a language" (Mario Pei and Frank Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 96). Nida equates the word with "natural" in his book with Taber, The Theory and Practice of Translation. (Have you read that one?)

If you are going to pose on the BB as a translation expert, the least you could do is get your definitions right. It reminds me of the time back when I used the term "translation by concordance" on the BB, and you jumped on that and began using it in your posts.

 

[TCassidy]

I am starting to feel sorry for you Van. You insist on repeatedly making a public fool of yourself. You just can't seem to get anything right in this thread. You display your inability to understand the difference between an idiom and a metaphor, and fail to identify a metaphor when you see one.

You make claims on the Priesthood of the Believer which are thinly disguised attacks on the salvation of other posters.

And the sad thing is that I actually agree with you that idiomatic language should be literally translated in the text and explained in a foot note. But that has nothing to do with language, syntax, or linguistics. It has more to do with my over-insistence on literal translation. (And I know that John believes an idiom should be literally translated as another similar idiom, if possible.) But I am an old fossil who thinks any non-literal translation belongs in a foot note and not in the text.

Just look at the grief the KJV has suffered for over 400 years for the translation "God forbid!"

But you keep making ignorant mistakes a 1st year "bone head" Greek student wouldn't make. (And I taught "bone head" Greek 101 at the seminary level for 25 years so I saw a lot of "bone head" comments, opinions, and mistakes.)

Give it up, Van. You are in way over your head. Walk away. Quit while you are behind. Never pick a fight with an 800 pound gorilla. (Sorry John, nothing personal, just a metaphor. )

 

[John of Japan]

Again, the student would know that scripture uses idioms or figurative expressions meant to convey an idea differing from the literal.

Actually, the correct term is "figures of speech," which includes such terms as idiom, metaphor, hyperbole and the like. One author claims there are 217 different types of figures of speech in the Bible.

 

[Van]

Good Grief JOJ, stick to the truth. You made the error, my view is rock solid. This is not about your defining terms, it is about the best way to translate the Bible into English so that all can understand and grow.

And did I pose as a translation expert? Nope, yet another false and vicious charge, from JOJ.

And using the same English word or phrase for each source language word or phrase meaning is also the best way to translate.

 

[Van]

I actually agree with you that idiomatic language should be literally translated in the text and explained in a foot note.

Case closed.

 

[McCree79]

Never pick a fight with an 800 pound gorilla. (Sorry John, nothing personal, just a metaphor. )

Should this be a footnote????



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[rlvaughn]

I see two more off topic posts...

Actually, the original topic was the 21st Century KJV, not your rabbit trail.

Yes, I think that complaint ship has already sailed!

 

[TCassidy]

Good Grief JOJ, stick to the truth.

He has.

You made the error, my view is rock solid.

No, your view (and mine) is in the vast minority among bible translators.

This is not about your defining terms, it is about the best way to translate the Bible into English so that all can understand and grow.

Words mean things. When you demonstrate you do not now what those words mean then correction should be gratefully accepted.

And did I pose as a translation expert?

Yes. You insisted your translation choices are, alone, correct.

And using the same English word or phrase for each source language word or phrase meaning is also the best way to translate.

Let's see how that works in practice.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
8 The spirit blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Or:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and wind, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the wind is wind.
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the wind.”

Hmmmm. I don't think so.

 

[TCassidy]

Should this be a footnote????

End note? Even a gorilla's foot is pretty intimidating. Especially when it is on my chest!

 

[TCassidy]

Case closed.

You wish. Even though I disagree with John, I will submit to his greater authority regarding this matter acquired by means of his education in this discipline, his experience in this discipline, and his obviously superior knowledge in this matter.

 

[Rippon]

you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to question my qualifications.

Oh this is good. Van is too funny. I can't stop chuckling.

 

[Rippon]

My position concerns translating scripture into English. You will not be able to show a single verse where my method would not be best.

I've shown you hundreds of times where you living in FantasyLand.

 

[annsni]

I see JOJ cannot even admit that the verse contains an idiom. Good Grief. Dr. Wallace says it is!!!
Footnote 44: The arm symbolizes the strength of the wicked, which they use to oppress and exploit the weak.

Wow - You assert something yet Dr. Wallace doesn't use the word "idiom" in this description at all. Even Dr. Wallace doesn't admit the verse contains an idiom.

 

[Van]

Folks, even when it is obvious the whole dust=up was manufactured, as my view has been vindicated by Dr. Wallace and TC, there are those still hurling disparagement. Go figure

 

[TCassidy]

my view has been vindicated by . . . TC,

What part of:

"Even though I disagree with John, I will submit to his greater authority regarding this matter acquired by means of his education in this discipline, his experience in this discipline, and his obviously superior knowledge in this matter" didn't you understand?

 

[Van]

The issue is not worldly accreditation and the accolades of men. My view has been supported by the NET version of Psalm 10:15 where the idiom was footnoted. JOJ falsely claimed that approach was ridiculous.

Note how they want to talk about my character and qualifications rather than how best to translate figurative language.such as the Hebrew Idiom is to use arm to convey strength and power. Some versions provide no footnote, some remove arm and put in power, but the best is to provide the literal translation and then footnote the idiomatic meaning.

Thank God for the NET footnotes.

We do not need to dumb down scripture, we do not need to indoctrinate, we need to educate.

 

[Rippon]

Van's theme song is from the Coasters' : Why's Everybody Always Pickin' On Me?

 

[John of Japan]

JOJ, you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to question my qualifications.

Let me try one more time. I would be happy to acknowledge your qualifications as soon as you tell me what they are. In fact, I will once again forego asking for "official" qualifications and assume you have educated yourself if you'll only answer the questions I've already posed:

1. Are you self-educated to fluency in any foreign language?
2. Have you self-educated yourself in Greek and/or Hebrew to fluency in reading?
3. Have you read completely through any technical books on translation? Even one?
4. Have you ever actually done any Bible translation on your own?

 

[John of Japan]

Tell you what, folks, here is the link to my essay on my son's theological blog on translating idioms. Enjoy!

Paroikos Bible Blog: Translating Idioms (guest essay by missionary John R. Himes)

 

[Van]

Hi JOJ, your attempt to change the subject from your erroneous ridiculous claim, demonstrates you seem rather full of yourself.
Folks, the case is closed, the best way to present figurative expressions whose literal meaning is not the author's intended meaning is to translate the expression literally, and then footnote the meaning or possible meanings.