2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: //In the "explanation" given in Daniel 9 the Angel gives a starting
event and also points to the 490 years as being decreed. (selected
out from the 2300 as the first 490 in that 2300 day timeline and having
an explicit start point).

//So having the Angel give the start point - instead of just randomly
guessing around for it - is much more reliable.//

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Alright. The 490 days ended in 27AD.

Actually - the 70th week starts in 27 ad "69 weeks UNTIL Messiah the prince". (You know -- week 68 followed by week 69, and week 69 followed by week 70... just the basics)

"in the Midst of the week" the Messiah is cut off. His 3.5 year ministry ends with His crucifixion.

This greatest of all Messianic timeline prophecies - the 490 year timeline we see here - INCLUDES the greatest Messianic events of all time in the Gospel. The START of Christ's ministry AND His atoning sacrifice so central to the Gospel for ALL mankind!

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
2300-490 leaves 1910 days left after 27AD.
1910+27 = 1937AD.

2300-490 is 1810.

27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.

1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.

Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time when the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in the Levitical Sanctuary system of types.

Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven and not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.

Seven years earlier in 1930 was the Rapture.

There is no reference to "rapture" in either Dan 9 or 8.

Where did you get "7 years earlier there is rapture"??

you have to "slice dice and chop" the 70 weeks to come up with that - and even then - a lot of imagination has to get mixed into the soup.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Or maybe the Lord arose in 33AD so the 2300 years is up
in 1943AD. That is the year the Antichrist is to be born.
I was born that year -- just what did you intend by
the word 'reliable'?

I am suggesting that you toss out the "or maybe" ideas and look for the reliable points in scripture.

 

[Me4Him]

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

Each "DAY" equals a "thousand years".

"HER BRANCH" is the Valley of bones, (Israel) being restored, and Her Branch is the "last generation" of the "SIXTH DAY".

The "LAST HOUR" of the sixth day is the Trib period, or Daniel's 70th week.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mat 24:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold,
he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold,
he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.

BobRyan: //2300-490 is 1810.
27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.
1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.
Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time when
the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in the Levitical
Sanctuary system of types.
Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven and
not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.//

Yes, I know Adventist logic. The Adventists were looking
for something to happen in 1844. Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -
now there is a Baha'i religion.
In the secret chambers Joseph Smith Jr. translated the
golden tablets of the Angel Mormon - now we have a Mormon
Religions.
We also have a host of Adventist groups of those who looked for
Jesus in 1844.

 

[Me4Him]

In the secret chambers Joseph Smith Jr. translated the golden tablets of the Angel Mormon - now we have a Mormon Religions.

I "think" Joseph may have misspelled the angel's name, he added one tooo many "M".

MorMon, should have been "MORON".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tee Hee - you are way to funny, Bro. Me4Him

When I was a kid (maybe 13 or 14) i heard about
the Latter Day Saints (LDS) from the
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints (Not-Mormons) based in Independence, MO.
Do not confuse this group with the
group taken to Utah by Brigham Young: The
Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints
(Mormon). The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ
of Later Day Saints was founded my Joseph
Smith Jr. FIRST wife Emma. Joseph Smith III
was head of this church when he came to age.

Anyway the Regoranized group had property of
the Temple in Independence, Mo. It was at that
Temple Lot that Joseph Smith Jr. said the
Lord Jeus would return to earth.
I wonder if they believe Jesus will come
before or after a tribulation?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
It was at that
Temple Lot that Joseph Smith Jr. said the
Lord Jeus would return to earth.
I wonder if they believe Jesus will come
before or after a tribulation?

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,

I "think" some of these people will find themselves "GUILTY" of more "MURDERS" on Judgement day than the world's worse "SERIAL KILLER".

They "MURDER" people with "false Doctrine", "Lies", "deceptions".

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

I don't know their views on the trib.

 

[BobRyan]

Ed asked for the exact timeline for Daniel 9 (490 years ) as it fits perfectly into the start of Daniel 8 (2300 years)

Ed suggests 27 AD for the end point of the 490 years but this is in fact the start of the 70th week.

So corrections were made and ... BobRyan complies with Ed's request-

BobRyan:

2300-490 is 1810.
27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.
1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.
Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time when
the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in the Levitical
Sanctuary system of types.
Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven and
not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.

Ed then complains that being able to map that out logically and consistently is not fair because Adventists "know" how to map it out.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Yes, I know Adventist logic.

I am not sure how that is "a response" to the details I mapped out.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -

I have no idea what you are talking about or why you want to misdirect in that way.

Years work - INCLUDING the coming of the Messiah in 27 AD at the start of the 70th week.

Why do you take so much effort in ignoring the obvious Messianic fullfillment of the 490 years? Is it because Daniel claims that this ALSO helps to explain the 2300 year timeline?

Do you find that clear and obvious point from Daniel 8 and 9 to be "unthinkable"??

I did not say that Christ "came" in 1844 - and neither has any Seventh-day Adventist.

Are you stuck "making things up" rather than responding to the points I make SHOWING the clear and objective timeline sequence -- unchopped - NOT diced, NOT sliced??

Why not just deal with the texts and the clear facts of history showing how they work out?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

Me4Him!!

You're closer than you know! The angels name was Moroni.

I like to do it this way: Moron, I.

But you're right,

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

They, and a lot of other people will have a lot to answer for when we all stand before the throne!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Ed asked for the exact timeline for Daniel 9 (490 years ) as it fits perfectly into the start of Daniel 8 (2300 years)

Ed suggests 27 AD for the end point of the 490 years but this is in fact the start of the 70th week.

So corrections were made and ... BobRyan complies with Ed's request-


2300-490 is 1810.
27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.
1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.
Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time when
the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in the Levitical
Sanctuary system of types.
Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven and
not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.

Bob

The "SIX THINGS" prophecied in the following verse have already "come to pass" for the church, as I posted previously, However, these must "LITERALLY", "come to pass", here on Earth, at the end of the "Seventy weeks", this of course ends the trib and begins the MK. (Mill Kingdom)

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The "Holy City", Jerusalem, is called Sodom during the tribulation.

Re 11:8 And their dead bodies (two witnesses) shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So, evidently, transgressions, sin, reconciliation, Righteousness, sealed vision/prophecy, and annointing, ISN'T completed as this prophecy said it would be at the end of the seventy weeks and before the MK begins.

What say ye???

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //I did not say that Christ "came" in 1844 - and
neither has any Seventh-day Adventist.//

Methinks thou doest protest too much.
I never claimed you said that Christ came in 1844.
I never claimed any Adventist (of whatever stripe) said
that Jesus physically came in 1844.

Ed://The Adventists were looking
for something to happen in 1844. //

BobRyan: //Why not just deal with the texts and the clear
facts of history showing how they work out?/

Yep, that is what i did! Here is a rewrite to clarify
questions asked about the first run:

--------------------------------------------

Mat 24:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold,
he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold,
he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.

The Adventists were looking for the Lord to return in 1844.
There was no visible return. So the Adventists movement
broke up into a dozen denominations. Today there are five
Adventist denominations with perhaps 1.5 Million members.

Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -
now there is a Baha'i religion. Only Baha'i belive
that one like unto Jesus appeared in 1844 - out in
the desert. Today there are some 8 Million Baha'i.

In the secret chambers (about 1830)
Joseph Smith Jr. translated the
golden tablets of the Angel Moroni - now we have a Mormon
Religion. Only Mormons believe
that one like unto Jesus died in 1844.
Today there are some 10 Million Mormons worldwide.

--------------------------------------------

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
BobRyan: //I did not say that Christ "came" in 1844 - and
neither has any Seventh-day Adventist.//

Methinks thou doest protest too much.
I never claimed you said that Christ came in 1844.
I never claimed any Adventist (of whatever stripe) said
that Jesus physically came in 1844.

Ed://The Adventists were looking
for something to happen in 1844. //

BobRyan: //Why not just deal with the texts and the clear
facts of history showing how they work out?/

Yep, that is what i did! Here is a rewrite to clarify
questions asked about the first run:

--------------------------------------------

Mat 24:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold,
he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold,
he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.

The Adventists were looking for the Lord to return in 1844.
There was no visible return. So the Adventists movement
broke up into a dozen denominations. Today there are five
Adventist denominations with perhaps 1.5 Million members.

Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -
now there is a Baha'i religion. Only Baha'i belive
that one like unto Jesus appeared in 1844 - out in
the desert. Today there are some 8 Million Baha'i.

In the secret chambers (about 1830)
Joseph Smith Jr. translated the
golden tablets of the Angel Mormon - now we have a Mormon
Religions. Only Mormons believe
that one like unto Jesus died in 1844.
Today there are some 10 Million Mormons worldwide.

--------------------------------------------

Do ya seepose if'n I started preaching "ONLY REDNECKS" go to heaven, I could get enough people to follow me and "contribute", for the church benefit of course, to buy me a "NEW LINCOLN", maybe Air condition my Dog's house, and send "ME" on a religious "CRUISE", for educational purposes, "OF COURSE".

If you're interested in joining, call BR 549.

 

[ascund]

Hey Me4Him

I think BobRyan and other Christ-deniers would sign up. After all, they have already been shown to be quite gullible - they already bought Satan's system of death!

What's a little cash compared to that?

 

[ascund]

Context for this super passage must deal with 2 Thess 3:2-3.

Pray that we may be delievered from heretics without faith. The Lord is faithful, Who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.

Let us not confuse "the Day" with any system of selfrighteous merit.

Let us see to be found in Christ, not having my own righteousness, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Can it be any clearer!
LLoyd

 

[BobRyan]

All the pointless ranting posts above = aside...

Ed --

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea what you are talking about or why you want to misdirect in that way.

Years work - INCLUDING the coming of the Messiah in 27 AD at the start of the 70th week.
...

Ed did you ever respond to that??

In Christ,

bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed
Mat 24:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold,
he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold,
he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.

The Adventists were looking for the Lord to return in 1844.quote
There was no visible return. So the Adventists movement
broke up into a dozen denominations. Today there are five
Adventist denominations with perhaps 1.5 Million members.

I guess this is where we add some fact to your fiction.

#1. The SDAs did not form BEFORE the 1850's
#2. The Millerites NEVER formed a denomination or church in the 1830's or 40's.

#3. The Millerite (about 50,000 in the 1840's) DID NOT go on to become SDA's

#4. Your atttempt to misdirect here seems to imply that you think all those groups accepting the Bible truth of a post-trib rapture are part of the 10 million member group - SDAs. (though you seem to be having trouble with the number of zeros for that number)

so was that antic of yours simply to misdirect away from the fact that the post-trib rapture SEQUENCE of Matt 24 fits my view better than yours?

What is the point of that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed:
// The Adventists were looking for the Lord to return in 1844.
There was no visible return. So the Adventists movement
broke up into a dozen denominations. Today there are five
Adventist denominations with perhaps 1.5 Million members.//

BobRyan: //I guess this is where we add some fact to your fiction.

//#1. The SDAs did not form BEFORE the 1850's
//#2. The Millerites NEVER formed a denomination or church in the 1830's or 40's.

//#3. The Millerite (about 50,000 in the 1840's) DID NOT go on to become SDA's

//#4. Your atttempt to misdirect here ... //

While your 'facts' are true, they do NOT invalidate what I
said. BTW, you will note i did NOT mention the SDA = Seventh
Day Adventists, a modern day denomination.

BTW, on page 34-37 of HANDBOOK OF DENOMINATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES - 11TH EDITION (Abinginton Press, 2001)
Substantiates what both of us said.

//As early as 1844, a small group of Adventists near Washington
New Hampshire, had begun to observe the sabbath
on the sevents day.//

One of these members was Ellen Harmon, later Mrs. James
White. These people formed the SDA in 1855.
I did read one of the books of Ellen White (Mrs. SDA).

The events of October 1844 were called "the Great Dissappointment"
for Jesus did NOT appear physically to clense the sanctuary.

Right after Seventh Day Adventists, starting on page 37 of
the Handbook of Denominations is an article about the
non-Christian Baha'i. Actually the Baha'i let Christians
join their group and they do NOT have to renounce Christ,
just take on some more stuff.

Quote by BobRyan:

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Out in the highland desert of
Iran in 1844 appeared one like unto Jesus and Muhhammad -

BTW, you misquted me by ommission:
"Only Baha'i belive
that one like unto Jesus appeared in 1844 - out in
the desert."

But i find total PROPHETIC FULLFILLMENT IN 1844
of Matthew 24:26 (not that 1844 was the ONLY fullfillment
of this prophecy of Jesus).

Actually it is quite a compliment to the SDA that
they didn't make the error of the Mormons and look for
Jesus in a secret room.
Actually it is quite a compliment to the SDA that
they didn't make the error of the Baha'i and look for
Jesus out in the desert.

BobyRyan: //Years work - INCLUDING the coming of the Messiah
in 27 AD at the start of the 70th week.
...

//Ed did you ever respond to that??//

I slayed it before you ever wrote it.

You have to ignore that at the end of the 69th week Jesus
arose from the grave providing our Victory over sin and the grave.
You have to have Jesus having a 3½-year ministry (2½ is about
all you can really find), dying in the middle of the 70th week,
and have a phony 3½-year last half of the 70th week that extends
from the Death of Jesus four years later to the death of Stephen.
A person has to be a contortionist/break dancer to spin that
fast

 

[Ed Edwards]

I have a copy of:
THE GREAT CONTROVERSY BETWEEN CHRIST AND SATAN (Review
and Herald Publishing Assn, 1907) by Mrs. E.G.White.
My grandfather Edd with two 'd's (that was his
name (no short): Edd Edwards) acquired the book in 1911.
It is interesting reading. Especially note
Chapter 23: "What is the Sanctuary?"

 

[Me4Him]

Ed

It appears we have a thread all to ourselves.

Bob may be "tied up" working, if so, he'll be back.

You mentioned something about the 144000 being "resurrected Church/OT saints", (I think) could you elaborate on that??

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

While your 'facts' are true, they do NOT invalidate what I
said. BTW, you will note i did NOT mention the SDA = Seventh
Day Adventists, a modern day denomination.

"Modern" - as in organizing from the 1850's to the 1860's when they formally organized.

As opposed to - the 1840's?

Ed

BTW, on page 34-37 of HANDBOOK OF DENOMINATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES - 11TH EDITION (Abinginton Press, 2001)
Substantiates what both of us said.

//As early as 1844, a small group of Adventists near Washington
New Hampshire, had begun to observe the sabbath
on the sevents day.//

One of these members was Ellen Harmon, later Mrs. James White.

Well they are wrong there.

Ellen White was not a member of the first Adventist Sabbath keeping church.

Neither was James White a member of that church.

The church was a Sunday keeping Adventist church and was convinced by a Seventh-day Baptist visitor (Rachael Oaks) to start keeping the Sabbath.

Joseph Bates and some other Adventists began arguing in favor of the Sabbath and eventually convinced the Whites (yes Ellen Harmon never accepted the Sabbath - only later as Ellen White did she start keeping Sabbath).

Still I don't see how any of this helps you with your problem that Matt 24 FITS the POST trib rapture?

Is it just a side trip?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Right after Seventh Day Adventists, starting on page 37 of
the Handbook of Denominations is an article about the
non-Christian Baha'i. Actually the Baha'i let Christians
join their group and they do NOT have to renounce Christ,
just take on some more stuff.

Still I don't see how the Baha'i faith is helping you with the problem of Matt 24 showing a SEQUENCE with a post-trib rapture!

Nor do I see them connected to SDAs.

Another "sidetrip"??

In Christ,

Bob