2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

[quantumfaith]

I am ignored because of me not being educated.

Lucifer was ordained to be a Cherub, a guardian. He went against the will of God and God allowed it. He gave him a free will that is why He allowed it, and everyone from the day they were created a perfect being until wickedness was found in them not ordained. When He said that He was talking to King Tyre someone like us and referring to satan. God has placed a hedge of pretection to protect those who will come to Christ. God will is no one to sin if they do it is because of their own wickedness. The purpose is to save His people, those who trust in His Son. If something is allowed it is because it will bring someone to Christ, if it isn't permitted it will prevent someone from comming to Christ. You are condemned for not trusting in His Son and leaning on your own understanding. God will hide the truth from the wise and learned.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge, if they don't it is't because God not desiring it.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Praise God

God desires it because God declared that He did:

[God] who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) Darby

The reason they don't is because of the obstinacy of their sinful hearts and their own refusal to accept Christ as Lord.

Amen.

Thank you

 

[Skandelon]

God is NOT the proximate cause according to Calvin. But since he is the ultimate cause of all things he is the remote cause of evil.

So when James wrote, "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."

He really meant, "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me directly, but only remotely through other means." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone directly, just remotely; but each one is tempted when, by God's ultimate decree which will thus become man's own evil desire, he is dragged and away and enticed."

Ok, crystal clear.....

 

[Luke2427]

So when James wrote, "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."

He really meant, "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me directly, but only remotely through other means." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone directly, just remotely; but each one is tempted when, by God's ultimate decree which will thus become man's own evil desire, he is dragged and away and enticed."

Ok, crystal clear.....

No he didn't have to change the way he wrote it. We have the whole Bible available for us to put James' remark in context.

What James said has to fit with these verses:

Exod 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”

Exod 12:36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

Exod 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Deut 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might give him into your hand, as He is this day.

Deut 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

Josh 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. (Note – this is 5 verses after “Choose this day whom you will serve…”)

2 Chr 25:20 But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that He might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Ps 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.

Isa 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, and he shall fulfill all My purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Isa 63:17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)

Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.

Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.


You don't get to cherry pick verses and build a real theology from them. All of Scripture has to work together to form a reputable Christian theology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's not hypercalvinism. It is Calvinism plain and simple.

It is what Calvin taught.

It is what Beza taught.

It is what the Westminster Confession clearly states as I have shown.

It is what the 1689 Baptist confession states.

It is Calvinism that God has decreed all things that ever happen.

How bizzare....then Luke, by your testimony I am NOT a Calvinist. Then Im an Arminian?!?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Conversely Van, let me ask you a question, "Does God in your view predestine anything?"

Van....Now that Quantum Faith answered your question, could you take a minute to answer mine?

 

[Skandelon]

Van....Now that Quantum Faith answered your question, could you take a minute to answer mine?

I know I'm not Van, but I will say, Yes, God predestines to conform all believers into the image of Christ and adopt them as His very own.

 

[Skandelon]

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)

For the sake of brevity I'll just comment on this one for now:

Explain to me why it would be necessary for God to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes" if they were born that way as a result of the fall?

Remember, that is the question you complimented me for in that one post but never did get back to answer. Could it be that Israel was being judicially hardened temporarily while the Gentiles were being grafted in? (Rom 11)

Could that explain what God meant when he spoke of Israel being unable to come to him while the Gentile would listen? (Acts 28:28)

See, this verse is describing the condition of a group of people who have rebelled for generations despite God's holding out his hands to them patiently, but who are now being "cut off." Your system doesn't leave any distinction between the condition of a hardened rebellious Jew and the natural man.

You don't get to cherry pick verses and build a real theology from them. All of Scripture has to work together to form a reputable Christian theology.

Correct, but you must still deal with the verse in question by providing a valid interpretation. You can't just bury it under a barrage of other texts and pretend that it goes away.

What was wrong with the interpretation I provided for you? Was it not an accurate description of what you believe James meant? If not, why not?

 

[Luke2427]

How bizzare....then Luke, by your testimony I am NOT a Calvinist. Then Im an Arminian?!?

If you don't believe that God intended for there to be evil (iow, evil happened as a mistake) and that God is working all things after the counsel of his own will (including all evil events) then you certainly do not agree with historic Reformed theology.

But I think you do.

 

[Luke2427]

For the sake of brevity I'll just comment on this one for now:

Explain to me why it would be necessary for God to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes" if they were born that way as a result of the fall?

This is a common fallacy you make in arguing these matters.

I call it the "explain God" fallacy.

As if your opponents inability to explain the eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God in the way he brings things to pass bolsters your position!

It is silly.

I cannot. You cannot. no mortal man will ever be able to. The angels do not know.

It is silly for you to ever say anything like, "Well then explain why God..." or "Explain HOW God...." or "Well then why would God..."

Such questioning is not sensible nor does it make ANY kind of argument whatsoever.

All we have to do is understand what God has revealed about himself- namely that he rules over, in and through all things and is every second in every square inch of the universe bringing to pass in every single event large and small his will.

This is the one true God.

Correct, but you must still deal with the verse in question by providing a valid interpretation. You can't just bury it under a barrage of other texts and pretend that it goes away.

What was wrong with the interpretation I provided for you? Was it not an accurate description of what you believe James meant? If not, why not?

I never said anything was wrong with it.

You just formed your remarks is a rather smart alek way saying, "WELL THEN JAMES SHOULD HAVE SAID..."

I simply notified you that such wording is not necessary because we have the whole BIBLE to put James' remarks in context.


I know you are trying to water down the Calvinism of Calvinists on bb by trying make me seem more extreme than John Calvin on these matters, but the fact of the matter is that I am saying what John Calvin has said on these matters- to a tee.

It is interesting that Calvin does use cause, referring to God’s agency in bringing evil about, when he distinguishes between God as the “remote cause” and human agency as the “proximate cause.” Arguing that God is not the “author of sin,” he says, “the proximate cause is one thing, the remote cause another.”5 Calvin points out that when wicked men steal Job’s goods, Job recognizes that “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.” The thieves, proximate cause of the evil, are guilty; but Job doesn’t question the motives of the Lord, the remote cause. Calvin does not, however, believe that the proximate/ultimate distinction is sufficient to show us why God is guiltless:

But how it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author and approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance.6

 

[Skandelon]

If you don't believe that God intended for there to be evil (iow, evil happened as a mistake) and that God is working all things after the counsel of his own will (including all evil events) then you certainly do not agree with historic Reformed theology.

But I think you do.

And for those following along please take notice that historically Arminians have also believed that God has permissively decreed evil, in that He allowed it for a purpose (not a surprise or mistake), and that God is working all things after the counsel of his own will (including evil events). Thus, we are still not sure if Luke is calling E,W&F an Arminian or not.

Stay tuned.

 

[Skandelon]

I cannot. You cannot. no mortal man will ever be able to. The angels do not know.

Are you saying we don't know why God would need to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes?" Because I think the scripture tells us exactly why He needs to do so:

"lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

And again in the other verse you quoted out of Mark 4:

"lest they should turn and be forgiven"

See, Luke, it is very simple. The Jews wouldn't have killed Jesus if a large number came to faith in Him prior to the cross, so God had to hid the gospel from them so they wouldn't turn and be healed. It is NOT a condition from birth, it is a temporary condition of the Jews during that time. There is no mystery here except the one created by a false premise in your theological system.

It is silly for you to ever say anything like, "Well then explain why God..." or "Explain HOW God...." or "Well then why would God..."

Such questioning is not sensible nor does it make ANY kind of argument whatsoever.

I'll be sure to remember that when you question how God could remain sovereign while giving man contra-causal free will.

I know you are trying to water down the Calvinism of Calvinists on bb by trying make me seem more extreme than John Calvin on these matters, but the fact of the matter is that I am saying what John Calvin has said on these matters- to a tee.

Actually, I wish you would have provided the first part of this article when you and I first started our discussions. This is what I attempted to tell you the first month of our discussions:

Do we want to say that God is the “cause” of evil? That language is certainly problematic, since we usually associate cause with blame. . . . t seems that if God causes sin and evil, he must be to blame for it.

Words: The Theologian’s Tools

Therefore, there has been much discussion among theologians as to what verb should best describes God’s agency in regard to evil. Some initial possibilities: authors, brings about, causes, controls, creates, decrees, foreordains, incites, includes within his plan, makes happen, ordains, permits, plans, predestines, predetermines, produces, stands behind, wills. Many of these are extra-scriptural terms; none of them are perfectly easy to define in this context. So theologians need to give some careful thought about which of these terms, if any, should be affirmed, and in what sense. Words are the theologian’s tools. In a situation like this, none of the possibilities is fully adequate. There are various advantages and disadvantages among the different terms.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Luke2427]

And for those following along please take notice that historically Arminians have also believed that God has permissively decreed evil, in that He allowed it for a purpose (not a surprise or mistake), and that God is working all things after the counsel of his own will (including evil events). Thus, we are still not sure if Luke is calling E,W&F an Arminian or not.

Stay tuned.

Here is Calvin on the matter:

It is interesting that Calvin does use cause, referring to God’s agency in bringing evil about, when he distinguishes between God as the “remote cause” and human agency as the “proximate cause.” Arguing that God is not the “author of sin,” he says, “the proximate cause is one thing, the remote cause another.”5 Calvin points out that when wicked men steal Job’s goods, Job recognizes that “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.” The thieves, proximate cause of the evil, are guilty; but Job doesn’t question the motives of the Lord, the remote cause. Calvin does not, however, believe that the proximate/ultimate distinction is sufficient to show us why God is guiltless:

But how it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author and approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance.6

If Arminians agree with that- fantastic!

I attended a Free Will Baptist college, a TRULY Arminian institution- and none of those professors believed it.

But if Skandelon believes as I understand Arminius believed that God willed that evil be and he is bringing it to pass to serve his own holy purposes- GREAT!

We have no quarrel.

 

[Luke2427]

Are you saying we don't know why God would need to "make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes?" Because I think the scripture tells us exactly why He needs to do so:

"lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

And again in the other verse you quoted out of Mark 4:

"lest they should turn and be forgiven"

What we do not know is HOW that works, Skandelon.

What we do not know is WHY God set it up that way.

Nobody does, so it is a silly question to say, "Why would God..." or "How does God...."

It makes no argument.

I don't KNOW why God uses means to regenerate. I don't know HOW God does it.

Neither do you.

But what I do know is that God rules, in and through and over every single event over every square inch of the universe every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

And I know that NOTHING happens that God did not INTEND to happen.

The Bible is ABUNDANTLY clear on this.

See, Luke, it is very simple. The Jews wouldn't have killed Jesus if a large number came to faith in Him prior to the cross, so God had to hid the gospel from them so they wouldn't turn and be healed. It is NOT a condition from birth, it is a temporary condition of the Jews during that time. There is no mystery here except the one created by a false premise in your theological system.

I'll be sure to remember that when you question how God could remain sovereign while giving man contra-causal free will.

See above.

And the problem with your statement at the bottom of the above quote is that your position UNDERMINES the Sovereignty of God.

I don't ask "How could God be Sovereign?"

I accept that he is.

Actually, I wish you would have provided the first part of this article when you and I first started our discussions. This is what I attempted to tell you the first month of our discussions:



:applause::applause::applause:

This is what I have been CLEARLY arguing for months.

And I have provided this article numerous times OVER those several months.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now Im confused so I'm going to start from square one. I maintain that I believe in (1) Election tells us that God chose His people. (2) Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son." In other words, someday the elect will be LIKE Christ and WITH Christ. I love that & sincerely believe that the bible teaches this. To be like Christ means to be totally sinless and completely everlasting. To be with Christ means to have the right to dwell in Paradise.

Now you would think after reading that that everyone would just love this doctrine, but after some time on BB I've learned that it is not always the case. Some people take issue for they think it turns us into mindless robots or little pawns like Tater pointed out where God is and controlling our every movement. Some feel that God should give every one a chance at this wonderful destiny, but we know this is impossible for we are totally depraved, we were dead spiritually and we would have never chosen God. We should be ever so thankful that He chose us and gave us such a great destiny.

Back to predestination.....The big P teaches us that we are totally dependent on the mercy of God. Again, we are no-good, hell deserving sinners and it took a ton of mercy for God to predestine us. And truly, it is (Mercy) in its purest form for it was extended to us before the world was created. Services rendered.

So, to deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. It would also deny the scriptures

And if you study the scriptures very carefully you will begin to notice something that is consistant and that is that Predestination is always about people and not about events. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestines all whom He foreknew. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, that would make us mindless pawns and would make God the author of sin. So here is what I see in studying scripture telling us bottom line "Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect."

 

[quantumfaith]

Now Im confused so I'm going to start from square one. I maintain that I believe in (1) Election tells us that God chose His people. (2) Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son." In other words, someday the elect will be LIKE Christ and WITH Christ. I love that & sincerely believe that the bible teaches this. To be like Christ means to be totally sinless and completely everlasting. To be with Christ means to have the right to dwell in Paradise.

Now you would think after reading that that everyone would just love this doctrine, but after some time on BB I've learned that it is not always the case. Some people take issue for they think it turns us into mindless robots or little pawns like Tater pointed out where God is and controlling our every movement. Some feel that God should give every one a chance at this wonderful destiny, but we know this is impossible for we are totally depraved, we were dead spiritually and we would have never chosen God. We should be ever so thankful that He chose us and gave us such a great destiny.

Back to predestination.....The big P teaches us that we are totally dependent on the mercy of God. Again, we are no-good, hell deserving sinners and it took a ton of mercy for God to predestine us. And truly, it is (Mercy) in its purest form for it was extended to us before the world was created. Services rendered.

So, to deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. It would also deny the scriptures

And if you study the scriptures very carefully you will begin to notice something that is consistant and that is that Predestination is always about people and not about events. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestines all whom He foreknew. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, that would make us mindless pawns and would make God the author of sin. So here is what I see in studying scripture telling us bottom line "Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect."

I give you "kudos" as to HOW you present your thoughts and position on the topic. Clear, articulate and without malice and insolent tone. Blessings to you for this.

 

[Winman]

The proper word concerning why sin exists is NECESSITY.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences, for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh.

God does not will sin and condemns it. But sin is necessary, Jesus said so. Why? Because God has given us free will to choose either for him or against him.

If it is God's will that man truly has choice to love him, then it is absolutely necessary that man also has the freedom to sin and reject God. You cannot have choice without real options.

God is free and can make choices. We are made in God's image and can likewise make choices. This freedom makes sin necessary. God does not will, desire, or condone sin, but it is unavoidable, even for God.

I disagree with those who say God could have made us without the ability to sin. If so, we could not love God, because love requires choice.
But choice makes the opportunity to sin necessary.

Man is 100% responsible for his sin, as Jesus said, "woe to that man by whom the offence cometh". God did not cause sin, men sin by their own choice.

 

[psalms109:31]

Even what we consider to be a righteous man need to be humbled before God and to be made known before God their righteousness is dirty rags. God will do what it takes to bring us to this by our own free will. To say God did not orchestrate my salvation would be a lie or to say that God orchestrate my sin and others people sin would be a lie.

Job 9:
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with cleansing powder,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.

32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
someone to bring us together,
34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

Isaiah 6:5
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

To come to a point to turn to God to cry out to Him to be healed

Job 16:
18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.

Isaiah 6:
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

Here is a verse for food for thought.

Luke 11:42
“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

 

[Van]

Reply to Quantumfaith,

No, I do not believe he engineered every event, but I also do not believe he is "surprised" by any event either.

Why ask me to decode "engineered" - does this mean predestined? Jesus said our yes should be yes and our no should be no. I present my views with as much clarity as I can muster. My answer is no, God does not predestine everything, He predestines what He declares because no plan of God can be thwarted. Thus His predetermined plans and prophecies are predestined.

I am not sure why you added, God is not surprised. Is this more code for God knows the future exhaustively yet this does not presuppose everything is predestined?

I am a simple guy and therefore my view is simple, everything God predestines is by logical necessity known from when it was predestined. Thus in any part of the future is not predestined, God can choose not to know that part of the future, because logical necessity does not require it. On the other hand, whatever part of the future God knows, that part is predestined by logical necessity. Now having this simple view, I arrived at my understanding of the Bible, part of the future is known beforehand by God, and part of the future is not known beforehand by God because God has chosen not to know it. This view is the only view that is consistent with all scripture.

And as a footnote, I have posted exhaustively and repeatedly that God is not surprised. I will post again what I consider to be the Biblical support for that view, as all my views are specifically supported by scripture. Integrity demands it.

 

[Skandelon]

What we do not know is HOW that works, Skandelon.

That is beside the point, Luke. We are talking about the nature of man.

You claim they are born unable to see, hear, understand and turn, but this text clearly indicates that God makes them unable to see, hear, understand lest they turn. So which is it?

Are they born that way or does God make those who are rebellious that way for a reason?

Answer the question and stop dodging by calling my question "silly." You know it's not, and even said so in the other thread. It's a question debated in theological journals and by scholars throughout history. You can't hide behind your patronizing comments and bullying techniques. Deal with the argument or don't, but stop with the immature banter.

This is what I have been CLEARLY arguing for months.

And I have provided this article numerous times OVER those several months.

Luke, you throw around terms like tomatoes at a food fight. From the first time we got into a discussion you started in with "God caused sin" and "God decrees sin" and "God ordains sin" without so much as a definition of any of these terms. I asked for weeks with no clear answer and even once one was provided you never drew any distinction between God's permissive and active decrees. The part of this article I quoted pointed out the importance of using the right terms and being careful as to what you are communicating. That is something you should really take to heart and work on.