spurgeon2004
New Member
I am beginning to build the Campaign team for our 40 days of purpose and was wondering how other pastors did this. Please respond.
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40 days of purpose
- Thread starter spurgeon2004
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C.R. Gordon
New Member
I’m going to in my best possibly way say this.
I don’t criticize Rick’s motives he wants to win people to Christ! But when you change the methods you destroy the meaning!
The only way you can truly get people saved and converted is to make them realize they have broken God’s law’s and that they are depraved, and that
Rick serves the god of the church growth movement!
http://www.okemoschristiancenter.com/Sermons%20Audio/RCSproulJr/SPROULGODCENTEREDWORSHIP.MP3
Listen to this 30 min. message and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
This pastor can explain it better than I can.
Thanks!
C.R. Gordon
I don’t criticize Rick’s motives he wants to win people to Christ! But when you change the methods you destroy the meaning!
The only way you can truly get people saved and converted is to make them realize they have broken God’s law’s and that they are depraved, and that
Rick serves the god of the church growth movement!
http://www.okemoschristiancenter.com/Sermons%20Audio/RCSproulJr/SPROULGODCENTEREDWORSHIP.MP3
Listen to this 30 min. message and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
This pastor can explain it better than I can.
Thanks!
C.R. Gordon
C.R. Gordon
New Member
If you’d like something that is a better for TRUE EVANGLIZSM
Check out Ray Comfort
www.thewayofthemaster.com
Check out Ray Comfort
www.thewayofthemaster.com
Fair enough, until yousay the following:
It really irks me when people who don't like the method, message, or milieu of another pastor just say "that's not for me", instead feeling the need to accuse that person of ungodliness. That's when the self-righteousness flag goes up.
Rick Warren's method, while not for me, is worthwhile to many, and I neither encourage nor discourage anyone from utilizing it. Spurgeon2004, good luck on your campaign.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
But an extended critique of the book and the 'movement' is rather beyond me right now. I have the book, I've read the book and I think it's fluff...
I don't think we need more pop-theology from numbers-oriented pastors obscuring the cross of Jesus Christ and the proclamation of the Gospel.
The book is a call to look at oneself; it panders to a gross and selfish desire on the part of the believer to think that his 'walk' is about realizing his purpose and such. Afterall, who doesn't want to know what they're here for? Anyone reading it would come away with the impression that the purpose of sanctification is to find one's purpose in life.
I take issue with that.
I believe that the Sovereign Providence of God is such that there are no missed trains on the track to glory. You are where you are because that's where God wants you and as messy and weird as it may be at times, your 'purpose' is always comepletely subsumed in His. my purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, and so is yours and anyone else's.
I don't think we need more pop-theology from numbers-oriented pastors obscuring the cross of Jesus Christ and the proclamation of the Gospel.
The book is a call to look at oneself; it panders to a gross and selfish desire on the part of the believer to think that his 'walk' is about realizing his purpose and such. Afterall, who doesn't want to know what they're here for? Anyone reading it would come away with the impression that the purpose of sanctification is to find one's purpose in life.
I take issue with that.
I believe that the Sovereign Providence of God is such that there are no missed trains on the track to glory. You are where you are because that's where God wants you and as messy and weird as it may be at times, your 'purpose' is always comepletely subsumed in His. my purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, and so is yours and anyone else's.
All about Grace
New Member
What exactly are you wanting to know?Originally posted by spurgeon2004:
I am beginning to build the Campaign team for our 40 days of purpose and was wondering how other pastors did this. Please respond.
My church is an alumni church. PM me and I would be glad to help in any way I can.
Put this statement in the hall-of-fame for idiodic statements.
I agree SBC, that does reach a little bit.
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I don't agree in total with Warren's philosophy, but there is much good in it, and TPDL is a good book, much better than the PDC, I really don't see anything about methods either traditional or new in the book, I am not sure what your point is about the book in that sense.
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That is exactly Rick Warren's point, maybe you should read the book with an open mind
I don't agree in total with Warren's philosophy, but there is much good in it, and TPDL is a good book, much better than the PDC, I really don't see anything about methods either traditional or new in the book, I am not sure what your point is about the book in that sense.
littlewhitedove
New Member
I teach a Bible Study class and we are doing Rick Warren's book, 40 days of Purpose for The purpose Driven Life. It's a help to use as a spring board for futher spiritural growth.
CR Gordon's statement..."I believe that the Sovereign Providence of God is such that there are no missed trains on the track to glory. You are where you are because that's where God wants you and as messy and weird as it may be at times, your 'purpose' is always comepletely subsumed in His. my purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, and so is yours and anyone else's."
Some people don't know what their purpose is. they must find out. Some people just get fire insurance with accepting Jesus as their savior and not ever getting to know there is more to it than just their salvation. There is a walk with God. That's when you become truly blessed. Ricks book has helped make it reader friendly for the people who don't really want to study their Bibles for the deepth of it's mistries God has for us. After one week with the book my class wants to know more of what the Bible actually says, Not just Rick Warren's book. But his book brought about the spark that was needed to dig deeper. Read the book for yourself before bring it to the others so you can have a full understanding of what it's all about.
God bless your desire to know Him more.
CR Gordon's statement..."I believe that the Sovereign Providence of God is such that there are no missed trains on the track to glory. You are where you are because that's where God wants you and as messy and weird as it may be at times, your 'purpose' is always comepletely subsumed in His. my purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, and so is yours and anyone else's."
Some people don't know what their purpose is. they must find out. Some people just get fire insurance with accepting Jesus as their savior and not ever getting to know there is more to it than just their salvation. There is a walk with God. That's when you become truly blessed. Ricks book has helped make it reader friendly for the people who don't really want to study their Bibles for the deepth of it's mistries God has for us. After one week with the book my class wants to know more of what the Bible actually says, Not just Rick Warren's book. But his book brought about the spark that was needed to dig deeper. Read the book for yourself before bring it to the others so you can have a full understanding of what it's all about.
God bless your desire to know Him more.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
Once again I'm not saying he is not attempting to do a good thing, but he is changing the methods...making it "seeker friendly" and the Gospel is NOT seeker friendly. Why?
Because it says man is depraved to the core and deserves hell, and people don't like that...they want to hear the "Jesus wants to make you happy" Gospel.
The Gospel is offensive, and MOST Christians don't like it. It's narrow, and exclusive.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
Because it says man is depraved to the core and deserves hell, and people don't like that...they want to hear the "Jesus wants to make you happy" Gospel.
The Gospel is offensive, and MOST Christians don't like it. It's narrow, and exclusive.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
Do you think he is trying to be user friendly when he starts out with the fact that "Life is not about you"???
C.R. Gordon
New Member
OK here is a quote from the Purpose driven CHURCH book...not the life...but the thinking is the same...
1. "Church is boring especially the sermons. The messages don't relate to my life."
that's 100% correct if you are lost Christ does not make since to you. Period!
They have never been to my church...they can't get out the door without being hugged at least 20 times.
3. The church is more interested in my money than in me.
Once again that is not true...and any church that is interested in money over souls needs to be shut down!
4.We worry about the quality of the church's child care.
That's just silly!
The church SHOULD not ever try and think like unbelievers. We should ALWAYS think like Christ.
Our mandate is not from the world, but rather Christ!
OK I'm going to pick on this statement for a moment.
1. "Church is boring especially the sermons. The messages don't relate to my life."
that's 100% correct if you are lost Christ does not make since to you. Period!
2. Church members are unfriendly to visitors. If I go to church I want to feel welcomed without being embarrassed.
They have never been to my church...they can't get out the door without being hugged at least 20 times.
3. The church is more interested in my money than in me.
Once again that is not true...and any church that is interested in money over souls needs to be shut down!
4.We worry about the quality of the church's child care.
That's just silly!
The church SHOULD not ever try and think like unbelievers. We should ALWAYS think like Christ.
Our mandate is not from the world, but rather Christ!
I would disagree. Jesus was definitely seeker sensitive (not seeker friendly) at times. He dined with sinners in their comfort zone. He talked with the woman at the well at her level (he went to her, he didn't tell her to come to him). When Jesus asks Peter if he lives him, and Peter didn't understand, Jesus lowered to Peter's level of understanding. Even the act of God lowering himself to the level of human being could be seen as seeker sensitive.
North Carolina Tentmaker
New Member
C. R.:
The complaints you responded to were:
Whether or not these are issues with you or your church the point Rick is trying to make is that these are issues with people outside the church and we need to address them if we are going to reach those people. Denial of the issue will not solve it.
Look you said that we should never think like unbelievers, we should think like Christ. I agree with you on that, but what we have to do is understand how unbelievers think. We need to understand thier concerns and fears and address them.
The complaints you responded to were:
These are valid complaints from the unchurched and while they may not all be true of your church the perception is. We have to address and challenge that perception and bring those people in. You said
Are you telling me you have never heard a boring sermon since you came to Christ. Church is boring a lot of times and poor delivery of a poor message that does not relate to your life does make it boring. I am not saying that your messages are, but we must challenge the lost's perception that the gospel does not relate to them. IT IS RELATIVE, and we must present it in a way that they can understand that.
You know your church might fall into that second category. Perhaps they are so friendly they embarrass the visitors. I personally have never cared for a hug from a complete stranger. There are many churches on the other side of the scale so cold they never speak to you. The fact is that to make visitors feel welcome often we have to talk to them and understand what they need. Everyone doesn't need a hug.
Look I know this is not your church, but do you take up a collection. To the unsaved this is a true perception and I cringe everytime I hear a church preaching on stewardship for a month and neglecting the Saving Gospel of Christ. Many churches, especially wealthy ones, make way to big a deal out of money.
Well I don't think that's silly. Are you a parent? I worry about the quality of the care my children get anywhere. The NEVER go in the nursery of a church we are visiting. I have preached revivals at churches and refused to put my children in the nursery because I did not know the attendants. When they were very young if they were disruptive my wife would go with them. I do not trust my children to strangers I have just met.
Whether or not these are issues with you or your church the point Rick is trying to make is that these are issues with people outside the church and we need to address them if we are going to reach those people. Denial of the issue will not solve it.
Look you said that we should never think like unbelievers, we should think like Christ. I agree with you on that, but what we have to do is understand how unbelievers think. We need to understand thier concerns and fears and address them.
All about Grace
New Member
I will ask CR the question I have asked repeatedly in this discussion and have yet to get a decent response from the PDC critics: should the church be seeker INsensitive?
C.R. Gordon
New Member
Are you telling me you have never heard a boring sermon since you came to Christ. Church is boring a lot of times and poor delivery of a poor message that does not relate to your life does make it boring. I am not saying that your messages are, but we must challenge the lost's perception that the gospel does not relate to them. IT IS RELATIVE, and we must present it in a way that they can understand that.
The "delivery" of the message is not what moves me...the holy spirit is what moves me...that's what's the problem with American churches is we are so worried and want a preacher is a a motivational speaker...the ONLY WAY anyone can understand scripture is for the HOLY SPIRIT OF God to impart that wisdom to him/her.
Sermons are not boring...i've heard dry speakers, but the word of God is never boring.
You know your church might fall into that second category. Perhaps they are so friendly they embarrass the visitors. I personally have never cared for a hug from a complete stranger. There are many churches on the other side of the scale so cold they never speak to you. The fact is that to make visitors feel welcome often we have to talk to them and understand what they need. Everyone doesn't need a hug.
I understand what you're saying, but i really think most of this "stuff" are excuses for people who are lazy and don't want to go to church.
Well I don't think that's silly. Are you a parent? I worry about the quality of the care my children get anywhere. The NEVER go in the nursery of a church we are visiting. I have preached revivals at churches and refused to put my children in the nursery because I did not know the attendants. When they were very young if they were disruptive my wife would go with them. I do not trust my children to strangers I have just met.
Yes i am a parent, and my children either sit in church or my wife goes and and sits with them in the back of the church...my wife and i take care of our children... i don't like daycare or the nursery.
The "delivery" of the message is not what moves me...the holy spirit is what moves me...that's what's the problem with American churches is we are so worried and want a preacher is a a motivational speaker...the ONLY WAY anyone can understand scripture is for the HOLY SPIRIT OF God to impart that wisdom to him/her.
Sermons are not boring...i've heard dry speakers, but the word of God is never boring.
You know your church might fall into that second category. Perhaps they are so friendly they embarrass the visitors. I personally have never cared for a hug from a complete stranger. There are many churches on the other side of the scale so cold they never speak to you. The fact is that to make visitors feel welcome often we have to talk to them and understand what they need. Everyone doesn't need a hug.
I understand what you're saying, but i really think most of this "stuff" are excuses for people who are lazy and don't want to go to church.
Well I don't think that's silly. Are you a parent? I worry about the quality of the care my children get anywhere. The NEVER go in the nursery of a church we are visiting. I have preached revivals at churches and refused to put my children in the nursery because I did not know the attendants. When they were very young if they were disruptive my wife would go with them. I do not trust my children to strangers I have just met.
Yes i am a parent, and my children either sit in church or my wife goes and and sits with them in the back of the church...my wife and i take care of our children... i don't like daycare or the nursery.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
"should the church be seeker INsensitive? "
Once again...it is not our JOB to get people saved. It is the work of the holy spirit,
Chris Morley once quipped “The enemies of the truth are always awfully nice.”
The gospel is not always “sensitive.” Actually the Gospel can makes us flinch.
Jesus Himslef can be found offending someone on almost every page of the New Testament. D Marrtyn Lloyd-Jones once remarked “The greatest effect of our Lord’s Preaching was to make everybody feel condemned and nobody likes that h very much.”
WHY? Because we are sinful and we don’t like to be confronted with our sin. Church and the Gospel is not designed to be “SENSITVE” it is here to change lives, and we can’t convert people with the “JESUS wants you happy gospel” We convert people with the preaching of the law, making them realize that they have broken God’s laws, and that they are sinners In God’s sight.
So you ask the question. What must I do to be saved or to lead my friends to Christ.
The law must be present
Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Emotional pleas and people who use the fire insurance method for salvation are sadly mistaken and not converted. The only way a man or women a boy or a girl can be saved is if the Holy Spirit convicts them. And the way the Spirit convicts is by the preaching of the law. The law convicts hearts to understand they can do nothing to save themselves.
The law is simply a school master to break hearts. The law is what makes the Gospel (the Good News) so good! I once heard it said that the Good News never sound that great until you hear the Bad News first. That is so true, so your next question might be “What must I do to be saved now that I have heard and agree that I am a sinner and deserve punishment.
There are not several ways to get to God, there is only one way. That is to come on your knees repenting of sins.
Once again...it is not our JOB to get people saved. It is the work of the holy spirit,
Chris Morley once quipped “The enemies of the truth are always awfully nice.”
The gospel is not always “sensitive.” Actually the Gospel can makes us flinch.
Jesus Himslef can be found offending someone on almost every page of the New Testament. D Marrtyn Lloyd-Jones once remarked “The greatest effect of our Lord’s Preaching was to make everybody feel condemned and nobody likes that h very much.”
WHY? Because we are sinful and we don’t like to be confronted with our sin. Church and the Gospel is not designed to be “SENSITVE” it is here to change lives, and we can’t convert people with the “JESUS wants you happy gospel” We convert people with the preaching of the law, making them realize that they have broken God’s laws, and that they are sinners In God’s sight.
So you ask the question. What must I do to be saved or to lead my friends to Christ.
The law must be present
Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Emotional pleas and people who use the fire insurance method for salvation are sadly mistaken and not converted. The only way a man or women a boy or a girl can be saved is if the Holy Spirit convicts them. And the way the Spirit convicts is by the preaching of the law. The law convicts hearts to understand they can do nothing to save themselves.
The law is simply a school master to break hearts. The law is what makes the Gospel (the Good News) so good! I once heard it said that the Good News never sound that great until you hear the Bad News first. That is so true, so your next question might be “What must I do to be saved now that I have heard and agree that I am a sinner and deserve punishment.
There are not several ways to get to God, there is only one way. That is to come on your knees repenting of sins.
Psalm145 3
New Member
These type of people do not need Rick Warren to make God's Word "reader friendly," they need to get SAVED! The Lord said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME"
Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church and Purpose Driven Life books are filled with dangerous false teaching. Here are a couple articles from Fundamental Evangelistic Association that exposes some of the dangers in these books:
An Analysis of Rick Warren's The Purpose-Driven® Life
The Church Growth Movement - An Analysis of Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Church Growth Strategy
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
Psalm145 3:
You know the scary thing is these people will read this and it will go right over their heads.
Because they think we are nuts, because we don't embrace this hellish movement.
You know the scary thing is these people will read this and it will go right over their heads.
Because they think we are nuts, because we don't embrace this hellish movement.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
I would be extraordinarily careful in calling something hellish when people are being brought to faith in Christ Jesus. That borders on blasphemy.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
I would be careful what you call Christian.
You should watch the video "TRUE and FALSE CONVERSIONS...90% of people who profess to be Christians are NOT!
2 Corinthians 13
5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
watch the video here
http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch.shtml