A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'

[DHK]

Can not say I disagree with this, if I am understanding you correctly, mon ami.

That is what debate is for.

You are the one throwing that word into our discussion, and not I, monsieur.

Perhaps, but I don't attribute living qualities to an intangible entity.

A dead person can bring himself back to life?

He is not "dead" but separated.
A truly dead person would not even able to "decide" or choose evil from good. He would not be able to make any choice at all. If he has a will he is able to make a choice, even if it is the wrong choice. But the Calvinist has taken that away from him. He has no free will, not even to make the wrong choice. If he is dead, he has no ability at all.

Faith comes when regeneration occurs. Jesus stated "The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”[Mk 1:15] He said to repent and believe. Look at that sequence. He is saying to have a change of mind and then believe. Repentance, according to Jesus' own words, occurs prior to any believing. Then we can read that Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?[Rom. 2:4] And then When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”[Acts 11:18] And then there is Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.[2 Tim. 2:25] Regeneration, faith, repentance, and salvation are all gifts of God mon ami.

At first glance it sounds like the social gospel.
"Repent and believe the good news." You must have a change of mind first you say.
So, if I change my mind about the way that I was living, the things that I was doing and start doing good, then God will accept me? Every religion of the world teaches that. That is salvation by works. God doesn't give faith just because you start doing good works.

Acts 10 and 11 are an historical even and the verse you use there is taken out of context and greatly abused. Peter is reporting back to the Jews, (Judaizers--many of them). The Jews still believed they were separate from the Gentiles and had no dealings with the Gentiles and were criticizing Peter for entering a Gentile house.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
--This was a matter of great contention.

Acts 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
--Thus Peter explains in great detail the events of the prior day, how God told him to go to the house of Cornelius, a Roman Centurion.

Acts 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
Acts 11:12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
--This last bolded phrase is important. On the Day of Pentecost only Jews were saved. "At the beginning" refers to that event.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
--Many were saved. The Holy Spirit came upon them, as "at the beginning" in some visible form. Could Peter withstand this supernatural event?? Of course not!!

The conclusion:
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Salvation has come to the Gentiles just like it came to us on the Day of Pentecost. This is not teaching that repentance is a special gift of God. It is simply saying that this is a historical event that salvation has now come to the Gentiles just as it did to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost. Unfortunately most Calvinists take the verse out of context, use it as a pretext to further their own means. That is sad.

Faith does not lay dormant in a sinner like you state it does, mon ami. Faith is not mystical, it is supernatural. It comes in an exchange between God and a sinner.

What faith did the Canaanite's daughter have to be healed, and yet she was.
Where did the faith of the Canaanite woman come from. We are not even told if she was truly regenerated.
Jesus described little children as having faith.

Faith is not innate, mon ami. Innate means existing in one from birth; inborn; native, inherent in the essential character of something: originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience: that which I bolded reeks of Gnosticism if you use it biblically.

See above answer.

I have told you, showed you many times what the bible says about faith and you just disagree with me. But I have truly enjoyed our discussion.

Likewise.

 

[DHK]

Speaking in general terms there there are only unsaved or saved people in the world
saved people have the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit can be grieved by a Christian by his behavior and all Christians commit acts of sin.

That being said if there's a person that goes on a message board and lies and bears false witness against other brothers on a daily basis I doubt that person is a christian because he's practicing sin and no Christian can practice sin.

God has no Undisciplined children if someone is living that grievous in sin .

God will cut him off.

Thankfully only God can see the heart and God alone is the judge of all such persons.

You are avoiding my question.
Even Godly people fall prey to ungodly posts.
You did not get those infractions for Godly posts.
Given the above statements and your above statements, do you consider yourself unsaved.

God has no Undisciplined children ...
God will cut him off.

 

[Rebel]

That is what debate is for.

Perhaps, but I don't attribute living qualities to an intangible entity.

He is not "dead" but separated.
A truly dead person would not even able to "decide" or choose evil from good. He would not be able to make any choice at all. If he has a will he is able to make a choice, even if it is the wrong choice. But the Calvinist has taken that away from him. He has no free will, not even to make the wrong choice. If he is dead, he has no ability at all.

At first glance it sounds like the social gospel.
"Repent and believe the good news." You must have a change of mind first you say.
So, if I change my mind about the way that I was living, the things that I was doing and start doing good, then God will accept me? Every religion of the world teaches that. That is salvation by works. God doesn't give faith just because you start doing good works.

Acts 10 and 11 are an historical even and the verse you use there is taken out of context and greatly abused. Peter is reporting back to the Jews, (Judaizers--many of them). The Jews still believed they were separate from the Gentiles and had no dealings with the Gentiles and were criticizing Peter for entering a Gentile house.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
--This was a matter of great contention.

Acts 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
--Thus Peter explains in great detail the events of the prior day, how God told him to go to the house of Cornelius, a Roman Centurion.

Acts 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
Acts 11:12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
--This last bolded phrase is important. On the Day of Pentecost only Jews were saved. "At the beginning" refers to that event.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
--Many were saved. The Holy Spirit came upon them, as "at the beginning" in some visible form. Could Peter withstand this supernatural event?? Of course not!!

The conclusion:
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Salvation has come to the Gentiles just like it came to us on the Day of Pentecost. This is not teaching that repentance is a special gift of God. It is simply saying that this is a historical event that salvation has now come to the Gentiles just as it did to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost. Unfortunately most Calvinists take the verse out of context, use it as a pretext to further their own means. That is sad.

What faith did the Canaanite's daughter have to be healed, and yet she was.
Where did the faith of the Canaanite woman come from. We are not even told if she was truly regenerated.
Jesus described little children as having faith.

See above answer.


Likewise.

So far, I haven't read anything that you have said that I disagree with. That's the main reason I haven't responded. I didn't see the need to add my two cents.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So far, I haven't read anything that you have said that I disagree with. That's the main reason I haven't responded. I didn't see the need to add my two cents.

Feel free to ring in at any time. I'd like your imput , too, mon ami.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are avoiding my question.
Even Godly people fall prey to ungodly posts.
You did not get those infractions for Godly posts.
Given the above statements and your above statements, do you consider yourself unsaved.

God has no Undisciplined children ...
God will cut him off.

I did not avoid anything but gave an illustration. Lying and bearing false witness are marks of
unregenerate persons,that is persons who do not have the indwelling Spirit if God.

This thread is not about infractions given by biased moderators.

 

[DHK]

I did not avoid anything but gave an illustration. Lying and bearing false witness are marks of
unregenerate persons,that is persons who do not have the indwelling Spirit if God.

This thread is not about infractions given by biased moderators.

No, it isn't. I also gave an example of an entire thread (or more) closed down because of ungodly language and/or behavior. So your conclusion is:

A. All that participated are unsaved (including yourself if you were one of them).

B. That "spiritual" Christians act carnal at times.

C. That you have now become a Wesleyan and believe in entire sanctification.

I think by what you are posting you lean toward the last position.

 

[Rebel]

Feel free to ring in at any time. I'd like your imput , too, mon ami.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

But I am limiting what I post now because of the way justice is meted out, by some.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, it isn't. I also gave an example of an entire thread (or more) closed down because of ungodly language and/or behavior. So your conclusion is:

A. All that participated are unsaved (including yourself if you were one of them).

B. That "spiritual" Christians act carnal at times.

C. That you have now become a Wesleyan and believe in entire sanctification.

I think by what you are posting you lean toward the last position.

I have not said anything that you suggest I said.What do they call it when a person makes things up,that are not true?

 

[DHK]

I have not said anything that you suggest I said.What do they call it when a person makes things up,that are not true?

I have not made anything up.
Here it is.

Fact one: Threads have been closed in the past due to vile language and other similar reasons.
Fact two: The posters of these threads are often those that you know and perhaps you may even be in one or two of them.

Therefore, according to the things that the Bible teaches and you have posted one must come to one of the following conclusions. This is simple logic:
(A multiple choice question)

A. All that participated are unsaved (including yourself if you were one of them). [you said there are only two kinds of people--saved and unsaved.]
or,

B. That "spiritual" Christians act carnal at times. (carnal Christians), or,

C. That you have now become a Wesleyan and believe in entire sanctification. (You deny any involvement and claim sinlessness--really?)

Which one do you choose?

I think by what you are posting you lean toward the last position.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is what debate is for.

:thumbs:

Perhaps, but I don't attribute living qualities to an intangible entity.

Again, mon ami, James in chapter two stated that faith if it is not accompanied by action,[Jas. 2:17b] is dead. It takes works/actions to make faith 'work'. Now, a sinner does not possess, nor can they exercise, good fruits/works. A tree can only produce what is on the inside. That it why it is imperative to preach the gospel to sinners. God uses the means of the gospel to plant His seed, His word, in their hearts. Once this word gets in there it germinates and produces fruit. As Jesus stated Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.[Jn 12:24] Once this takes place, it will bring about good fruit. These fruits are faith and repentance at the point of regeneration. Anytime someone exercises faith and repentance, that is showing the efficacious works of the Spirit have already been wrought in their heart.

He is not "dead" but separated.
A truly dead person would not even able to "decide" or choose evil from good. He would not be able to make any choice at all. If he has a will he is able to make a choice, even if it is the wrong choice. But the Calvinist has taken that away from him. He has no free will, not even to make the wrong choice. If he is dead, he has no ability at all.

The soul is dead in transgressions and sins. As 1 Cor. 2:14 states we can read The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness,(oddly enough, The person without the Spirit is translated natural man by the KJV, which shoots down the carnal Christian thingy. That is why Jesus stated many times 'Whoever has ears, let them hear.'

At first glance it sounds like the social gospel.
"Repent and believe the good news." You must have a change of mind first you say.
So, if I change my mind about the way that I was living, the things that I was doing and start doing good, then God will accept me? Every religion of the world teaches that. That is salvation by works. God doesn't give faith just because you start doing good works.

Non, mon ami, non. That is not what I am saying at all. Repentance is the gift of God. Repentance leads one to salvation. Therefore, repentance leads one unto belief/faith. The changing of the mind comes from God working repentance and faith within a man by quickening him.

Acts 10 and 11 are an historical even and the verse you use there is taken out of context and greatly abused. Peter is reporting back to the Jews, (Judaizers--many of them). The Jews still believed they were separate from the Gentiles and had no dealings with the Gentiles and were criticizing Peter for entering a Gentile house.


Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
--This was a matter of great contention.

Acts 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
--Thus Peter explains in great detail the events of the prior day, how God told him to go to the house of Cornelius, a Roman Centurion.

Acts 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
Acts 11:12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
--This last bolded phrase is important. On the Day of Pentecost only Jews were saved. "At the beginning" refers to that event.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
--Many were saved. The Holy Spirit came upon them, as "at the beginning" in some visible form. Could Peter withstand this supernatural event?? Of course not!!

The conclusion:
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Salvation has come to the Gentiles just like it came to us on the Day of Pentecost. This is not teaching that repentance is a special gift of God. It is simply saying that this is a historical event that salvation has now come to the Gentiles just as it did to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost. Unfortunately most Calvinists take the verse out of context, use it as a pretext to further their own means. That is sad.

In other places/verses I have shown you that repentance is a gift of God, monsieur, so I will not bore you by repeating them.

What faith did the Canaanite's daughter have to be healed, and yet she was.
Where did the faith of the Canaanite woman come from. We are not even told if she was truly regenerated.
Jesus described little children as having faith.

I have the KJV study bible with Thomas Nelson's study notes and his ascribed to six faiths. One of which he ascribed to was 'saving faith'. I can not find it online right now, so I will have to get it out sometime and type out his notes.

See above answer.


Likewise.

Yes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have not said anything that you suggest I said.What do they call it when a person makes things up,that are not true?

The problem stems from people who get stuck on using one version. I am not saying DHK or anyone else who holds to the 'carnal Christian doctrine' as being KJVO, or using any other translation primarily in their studies. But if you use only one translation you can get some wrong renderings and thereby, getting false conclusions.

Here is an example:

1 Cor. 3:1-3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[KJV]

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?[NIV]

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?[ESV]

And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly -- as to babes in Christ; with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able, for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?[YLT]

Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. In fact, you are still not ready, 3 because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife[a] among you, are you not fleshly and living like unbelievers?[HCSB]


Why were these people he was addressing being referred to as living worldly, people of the flesh, fleshly, carnal? They were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Now we can examine 1 Cor. 2:14:

But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.[HCSB]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[KJV]

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.[ESV]

and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;[YLT]

The person without the Spirits not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[NIV]


The gist of what Paul was stating is that unbelievers live fleshly, live worldly, live carnally, &c. He was writing to the Corinthian church en toto. Why did I say it in that fashion?

Say you wanted to address a church in your area that had members you have seen out in the world acting in a manner that a Christian should not. You do not wish to cause a scene and openly blast them, so you send a letter to that church addressing the issues at hand. You will call the church by the appellations 'Brothers' and 'Sisters' so that you do not single the wrongdoers out. This was the manner in which Paul wrote this letter. Yes, he did call out the fornicator who was with his dad's wife. I will not deny that, as that is plain to see. But I think that this was the approach Paul was using when he wrote this letter.


I know this was posted by quoting you Iconoclast, but I did so so that both you and DHK can see it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is another example that helps to support my anti-carnal Christian beliefs.


Jude 1:19:

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[NIV]

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[KJV]

It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.[ESV]

These people create divisions and are unbelievers,[a] not having the Spirit.[HCSB]

these are those setting themselves apart, natural men, the Spirit not having.[YLT]


These people were sensual, worldly, unbelievers, natural, flowing mere natural instincts, because they were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Those who were walking unseemly were doing so devoid of the Spirit and as Paul stated You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.[Rom. 8:9]

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now, they may have been a few in the Corinthian church who acted carnally, but they never lived carnally, in my opinion, monsieur.


For the writer so eloquently wrote Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.[1 Jn 3:7-10]

The difference between what you believe and what I believe is it appears you think christians can LIVE carnally, whereas I believe they can ACT carnally. When a Christian sins, it grieves the Spirit. They will repent of said sin and move on. Those who continue to live in sin, live carnally, are carnal and are devoid of the Spirit of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem stems from people who get stuck on using one version. I am not saying DHK or anyone else who holds to the 'carnal Christian doctrine' as being KJVO, or using any other translation primarily in their studies. But if you use only one translation you can get some wrong renderings and thereby, getting false conclusions.

Here is an example:

1 Cor. 3:1-3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[KJV]

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?[NIV]

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?[ESV]

And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly -- as to babes in Christ; with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able, for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?[YLT]

Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. In fact, you are still not ready, 3 because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife[a] among you, are you not fleshly and living like unbelievers?[HCSB]


Why were these people he was addressing being referred to as living worldly, people of the flesh, fleshly, carnal? They were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Now we can examine 1 Cor. 2:14:

But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.[HCSB]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[KJV]

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.[ESV]

and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;[YLT]

The person without the Spirits not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[NIV]


The gist of what Paul was stating is that unbelievers live fleshly, live worldly, live carnally, &c. He was writing to the Corinthian church en toto. Why did I say it in that fashion?

Say you wanted to address a church in your area that had members you have seen out in the world acting in a manner that a Christian should not. You do not wish to cause a scene and openly blast them, so you send a letter to that church addressing the issues at hand. You will call the church by the appellations 'Brothers' and 'Sisters' so that you do not single the wrongdoers out. This was the manner in which Paul wrote this letter. Yes, he did call out the fornicator who was with his dad's wife. I will not deny that, as that is plain to see. But I think that this was the approach Paul was using when he wrote this letter.


I know this was posted by quoting you Iconoclast, but I did so so that both you and DHK can see it.

Thank you for this helpful post .
anyone who wants to learn the truth can learn from this post clearly what the passage teaches.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

The difference between what you believe and what I believe is it appears you think christians can LIVE carnally, whereas I believe they can ACT carnally. When a Christian sins, it grieves the Spirit. They will repent of said sin and move on. Those who continue to live in sin, live carnally, are carnal and are devoid of the Spirit of God.

That is a matter of semantics.
If one is a Christian he must live like a Christian and act like a Christian; the two go hand in hand.

If one is an ambassador for his nation, living in a foreign nation. He must live as his nation would have him to live and act accordingly. For he represents his nation.

If one is a police officer. He is a police officer both on duty and off duty. He must act as one and live as one. If he disgraces his uniform even off duty he may be fired. Is it right for a police officer to maintain the dignity of the police force and be a pedophile at the same time?

Neither was it right for a Christian, and he was a believer, to commit incest (1Cor.5) though he was a Christian. He had to suffer the consequences by being put out of the church. Later he was restored. He must live and act like a Christian, not a carnal Christian.

These were carnal Christians. They were Christians but not acting like Christians. They needed to be disciplined and to grow up. They needed to be fed. They were taking each other to court. They had problems in their marriages. They abused the Lord's Table. The came to it drunk and over-fed (gluttonous), while at the same time having no regard for the poor in the church. They abused the spiritual gifts. There was a spirit of division. In short, they were carnal, and that cannot be denied. If so, it is a denial of the facts of God's Word as plainly laid out through the entirety of this epistle.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another example that helps to support my anti-carnal Christian beliefs.


Jude 1:19:

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[NIV]

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[KJV]

It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.[ESV]

These people create divisions and are unbelievers,[a] not having the Spirit.[HCSB]

these are those setting themselves apart, natural men, the Spirit not having.[YLT]


These people were sensual, worldly, unbelievers, natural, flowing mere natural instincts, because they were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Those who were walking unseemly were doing so devoid of the Spirit and as Paul stated You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.[Rom. 8:9]

SG

While you layed out the teaching very clearly some who a bent on teaching this error will attempt to type every sin that was in the Corinthian church and try to make it like everyone was guilty of carnality some of the people describe one not even Christians but yet they lump it all together and make one big error and a mess out of the whole epistle

 

[DHK]

Here is another example that helps to support my anti-carnal Christian beliefs.


Jude 1:19:

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[NIV]

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[KJV]

It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.[ESV]

These people create divisions and are unbelievers,[a] not having the Spirit.[HCSB]

these are those setting themselves apart, natural men, the Spirit not having.[YLT]


These people were sensual, worldly, unbelievers, natural, flowing mere natural instincts, because they were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Those who were walking unseemly were doing so devoid of the Spirit and as Paul stated You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.[Rom. 8:9]

It is a total non sequitor here.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Nowhere in the entire epistle of First Corinthians does Paul expose false teachers as does Jude does here. Jude's purpose is to contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

And then his entire epistle describe false teachers:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whereas Paul writes TO and ABOUT the saints in Corinth.
You have gone out of your way to take scripture out of context.

 

[revmwc]

The problem stems from people who get stuck on using one version. I am not saying DHK or anyone else who holds to the 'carnal Christian doctrine' as being KJVO, or using any other translation primarily in their studies. But if you use only one translation you can get some wrong renderings and thereby, getting false conclusions.

Here is an example:

1 Cor. 3:1-3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[KJV]

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?[NIV]

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?[ESV]

And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly -- as to babes in Christ; with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able, for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?[YLT]

Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. In fact, you are still not ready, 3 because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife[a] among you, are you not fleshly and living like unbelievers?[HCSB]


Why were these people he was addressing being referred to as living worldly, people of the flesh, fleshly, carnal? They were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Now we can examine 1 Cor. 2:14:

But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.[HCSB]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[KJV]

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.[ESV]

and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;[YLT]

The person without the Spirits not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[NIV]


The gist of what Paul was stating is that unbelievers live fleshly, live worldly, live carnally, &c. He was writing to the Corinthian church en toto. Why did I say it in that fashion?

Say you wanted to address a church in your area that had members you have seen out in the world acting in a manner that a Christian should not. You do not wish to cause a scene and openly blast them, so you send a letter to that church addressing the issues at hand. You will call the church by the appellations 'Brothers' and 'Sisters' so that you do not single the wrongdoers out. This was the manner in which Paul wrote this letter. Yes, he did call out the fornicator who was with his dad's wife. I will not deny that, as that is plain to see. But I think that this was the approach Paul was using when he wrote this letter.


I know this was posted by quoting you Iconoclast, but I did so so that both you and DHK can see it.

Interlinear Greek to English:
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I brothers not was able to talk to you as to spirituals (Pnuematikokos) but as to Fleshes (sarkikos)as to minors in anointed (Christ).
2 Milk you I give to drink and not food not as yet ye were able but not besides still now ye are able.
3 Still for fleshly ye are the where for in you boiling and strife and two stands not flesh ye are and according to human ye are about treading
1 Corinthians 2:14
14 Soulish (psuchikos) yet human not is receiving the of the spirit of the God stupidity for to him it is and not he is able to know that spiritually it is being examined

Thus we see the three types I originally spoke of.
(Pnuematikokos) = Spiritual walking in the Spirit
(sarkikos) = Believers walking in flesh as babes in Christ
(psuchikos)= natural men not saved

 

[revmwc]

Here is another example that helps to support my anti-carnal Christian beliefs.


Jude 1:19:

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[NIV]

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[KJV]

It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.[ESV]

These people create divisions and are unbelievers,[a] not having the Spirit.[HCSB]

these are those setting themselves apart, natural men, the Spirit not having.[YLT]


These people were sensual, worldly, unbelievers, natural, flowing mere natural instincts, because they were devoid of the Spirit of God.


Those who were walking unseemly were doing so devoid of the Spirit and as Paul stated You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.[Rom. 8:9]

Here is the interlinear Greek to English straight translation.

Jude 1:19
19 These are the one from thru isolating themselves soulish (psuechikoi) spirit (pnuema) no having.

 

[Rippon]

Here is the interlinear Greek to English straight translation.

Whatever interlinear "translation" you're quoting from is as clear as mud.