A Fresh Blossom on the TULIP

[Van]

Notice how I quoted you directly, word for word, regarding the requirements (merit) you demand before God can save.

Indeed, I hate a graceless gospel because it is not what God teaches and it is anathema to Christ Jesus.

I desire that you repent of your unsound teaching.

Same old claims, same old fiction, same old obfuscation, same old deflection.
Salvation does not depend on the man that wills to be saved, Romans 9:16. However this Calvinist claims it does.
Salvation by grace through faith is biblical, Ephesians 2:8. However this Calvinism claims someone promoted a graceless gospel.

On and on folks, the TULIP needs reform, the fresh TULIP provides that reform.

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:30
Protected Faith; 1 Peter 1:5

This fresh TULIP sprouted from scripture, with multiple supporting passages for every part of the flower.

 

[JonShaff]

It doesn't hang in the air. The rich man thinks his good works will save him and that he can generate a faith on his own.

Why did Jesus say it's harder for a rich man to enter into heaven if God gives faith to all he elected?

 

[Van]

The non-reformed TULIP needs reform, the fresh TULIP provides that reform.

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:30
Protected Faith; 1 Peter 1:5

This fresh TULIP sprouted from scripture, with multiple supporting passages for every part of the flower.

 

[AustinC]

Why did Jesus say it's harder for a rich man to enter into heaven if God gives faith to all he elected?

I explained this.
The person who considers himself rich is prideful and trusting in his own capacity to save himself and solve his own problems.

Ephesians 2 tells us that ALL of us were dead in our trespasses and sins.
However, we quickly read, "But God."
Tell me, what is it that God did, even while we were still dead?

Here is the passage so you can tell us.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now notice that you said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but Matthew 19:23-24 doesn't say that. It says...
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luke 18:24-26 says: Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”

Where is the word "harder?"

Note that the hearers had a "prosperity gospel" mentality and thought the mans wealth meant he was more blessed than the poor. Jesus informed them that self reliant people have a hard time being reliant wholly upon God alone.

There are many in the church today who would walk away if Jesus asked them to give all their wealth away. They go to church as a status symbol in the community. Are they saved? Only God knows.

 

[thomas15]

I am saying that the concept of free-will is a philosophy of men, not explicitly taught in the Bible.

I am taking free-will philosophy to its conclusion. When you take the philosophy of atheism to its conclusion, you end up with nihilism and meaninglessness. When you take free will to its conclusion, you end up with human pride and self as god, while the Creator becomes a side-kick assistant.

Many free-will thinkers refuse to follow the philosophy to its conclusion and prefer to ignore the obvious contradictions. It's the same with atheists. They refuse to follow their philosophy to its conclusion and thus live in contradiction.

What you are doing is classifying people into groups of your own making and ascribing to them negative characteristics with an authoritative tone when in-fact you actually don't really know what you are talking about because I really haven't taken any kind of classic offensive position. I'm not saying you are a liberal but you use liberal tactics in particular the personal insults to make your case which is not as strong as you seem to think it is with the hope that those of us who oppose you will just give up after all because in the grand scope of things in world of internet no one really cares what either of us thinks. Sad really you should spend more time studying the Bible and taking the words of the Scriptures seriously instead of trying to make a case for your imperfect theological stance, you might find it refreshing. Problem for you is it requires faith in the word that is at odds with what most consider academic.

And, may I humbly suggest that you turn on your hearing aid.

 

[thomas15]

Now back to business. I'm getting things ready to do a self study of Isaiah. Common knowledge, most books, commentaries and so forth are written by reformed covenant theologians. Anyway, I'm gathering up a few books and doing a little preliminary survey of Isaiah. One of the works I'm going to use is the 3 volume set by reformed honcho Edward J. Young (1972 Eerdmans). I'm sure all of you reformed Baptist have Presbyterian (PCUSA) Dr. Young on your shelves.

Commenting on Isaiah Ch 41 verse 8 which reads "And thou, Israel, art my servant; Jacob, it is thee whom I have chosen; the seed of Abraham, my friend."

Young comments found on pg 81 volume 3 "Jacob was chosen to serve. He is the servant of the Lord, but he occupies that position because of God's choice. Not of his own volition did the nation become the Lord's servant, but only through sovereign grace. The choice was on God's part, and in that He chose Israel He did not chose other nations but passed them by. By a calling of grace God chose Israel and set her apart to be His servant."

Notice how reformed covenant theologian Dr. Edward J. Young teaches that Israel is elect...to service. This seems to be at odds with the prevailing theory by those who call anything in the Bible that conflicts with Calvinism allegory and who think that election is to salvation.

 

[thomas15]

J. A. Alexander (Isaiah commentary 2 volumes in 1 1953 Zondervan) "The race is described as God's servant and his elect, or, combining the two characters, his chosen servant, chosen to be His servant."

Here we have another reformed Presbyterian who was a professor at Princeton Seminary and good friend of Charles Hodge teaching that election is to service.

 

[Van]

I explained this.
The person who considers himself rich is prideful and trusting in his own capacity to save himself and solve his own problems.
SNIP
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Now notice that you said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but Matthew 19:23-24 doesn't say that. It says...
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luke 18:24-26 says: Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”
SNIP
Note that the hearers had a "prosperity gospel" mentality and thought the mans wealth meant he was more blessed than the poor. Jesus informed them that self reliant people have a hard time being reliant wholly upon God alone.
SNIP
.

And once again the Calvinist claims the characteristics of the rich man impact his entry into the kingdom, or in other words, the exact opposite of Calvinism. This is the explanation.

If you study your bible, you will come to the conclusion, Calvinism is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

The TULIP needs reform, the fresh TULIP provides that reform.

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:30
Protected Faith; 1 Peter 1:5

This fresh TULIP sprouted from scripture, with multiple supporting passages for every part of the flower.

 

[thomas15]

.......................

If you study your bible, you will come to the conclusion, Calvinism is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

.............................

It appears to me Van that he is not interested in doing that.

 

[Van]

It appears to me Van that he is not interested in doing that.

You may be right in your assessment, I do not know, but clearly if being rich impacts entry into the kingdom, then Calvinism is unbiblical.

 

[Van]

The TULIP needs reform, the fresh TULIP provides that reform.

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:30
Protected Faith; 1 Peter 1:5

This fresh TULIP sprouted from scripture, with multiple supporting passages for every part of the flower.

 

[agedman]

“Ransom is not synonymous with Reconciliation.

 

[AustinC]

What you are doing is classifying people into groups of your own making and ascribing to them negative characteristics with an authoritative tone when in-fact you actually don't really know what you are talking about because I really haven't taken any kind of classic offensive position. I'm not saying you are a liberal but you use liberal tactics in particular the personal insults to make your case which is not as strong as you seem to think it is with the hope that those of us who oppose you will just give up after all because in the grand scope of things in world of internet no one really cares what either of us thinks. Sad really you should spend more time studying the Bible and taking the words of the Scriptures seriously instead of trying to make a case for your imperfect theological stance, you might find it refreshing. Problem for you is it requires faith in the word that is at odds with what most consider academic.

And, may I humbly suggest that you turn on your hearing aid.

We are addressing the philosophy of human free will versus God having supreme authority over the will of all humans. Do you care to address this issue?

 

[Van]

Returning to topic:

The TULIP needs reform, the fresh TULIP provides that reform.

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:30
Protected Faith; 1 Peter 1:5

This fresh TULIP sprouted from scripture, with multiple supporting passages for every part of the flower

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom, if everyone enters by the irresistible force of God's determinate will? Answer - It is hard because entry includes our effort to turn aside of worldly treasure and trust only in Christ. In the case of the rich young ruler, God did not credit his "faith" as righteousness.

 

[JonShaff]

I explained this.
The person who considers himself rich is prideful and trusting in his own capacity to save himself and solve his own problems.

Ephesians 2 tells us that ALL of us were dead in our trespasses and sins.
However, we quickly read, "But God."
Tell me, what is it that God did, even while we were still dead?

Here is the passage so you can tell us.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now notice that you said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but Matthew 19:23-24 doesn't say that. It says...
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luke 18:24-26 says: Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”

Where is the word "harder?"

Note that the hearers had a "prosperity gospel" mentality and thought the mans wealth meant he was more blessed than the poor. Jesus informed them that self reliant people have a hard time being reliant wholly upon God alone.

There are many in the church today who would walk away if Jesus asked them to give all their wealth away. They go to church as a status symbol in the community. Are they saved? Only God knows.

Ok, how is it difficult? Semantics, man.

 

[Van]

Ok, how is it difficult? Semantics, man.

On and on, the doctrines of deception are defended by deflection, but your observation is spot on. Why is it hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom if he or she is rich, since the rich individual would be compelled by irresistible grace, if Calvinism were true. They have no answer so they deflect and change the subject.

 

[agedman]

Folk the “eye of a needle” passage is not about salvation.

This passage is about service and devotion to God rather than the rich distractions this world may offer.

Being self sufficient (typical human condition) in any form is an impediment to trustingly relying whole heartedly upon God with a thankful heart for every sustaining mercy and Grace.

Do not assume the rich man did not sell everything and follow Christ, the Scripture gives no further information.

The rich young ruler could well have been Joseph of Arimathea. NO Bible scholar knows, and I really don’t care. The rest of the World considers all Americans are rich and self sufficient.

Is not the condition of distracted devotion even that of the Laodicean church: heathy and wealthy and in no need of true devotion or even submitting to servitude in opening the door to the presence of Christ?

To the believer, all things are sacred, and of the faith devoted to Christ and under His authority.

Is this not hard enough for the disciples to understand, how much harder for one raised to be self sufficient and make there own way?

 

[JonShaff]

Folk the “eye of a needle” passage is not about salvation.

This passage is about service and devotion to God rather than the rich distractions this world may offer.

Being self sufficient (typical human condition) in any form is an impediment to trustingly relying whole heartedly upon God with a thankful heart for every sustaining mercy and Grace.

Do not assume the rich man did not sell everything and follow Christ, the Scripture gives no further information.

The rich young ruler could well have been Joseph of Arimathea. NO Bible scholar knows, and I really don’t care. The rest of the World considers all Americans are rich and self sufficient.

Is not the condition of distracted devotion even that of the Laodicean church: heathy and wealthy and in no need of true devotion or even submitting to servitude in opening the door to the presence of Christ?

To the believer, all things are sacred, and of the faith devoted to Christ and under His authority.

Is this not hard enough for the disciples to understand, how much harder for one raised to be self sufficient and make there own way?

Mark 10
23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

So, "Enter into the Kingdom of God," and "Saved," are all key words for service?

 

[agedman]

Mark 10
23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

So, "Enter into the Kingdom of God," and "Saved," are all key words for service?

Prior to the cross, the Jews considered the atonement(s) at the temple and the serving a part of their wealth as sufficient to “enter into the Kingdom of God” and such is also considered in the statement when Jesus told the rulers they withhold the kingdom of God (Luke 11:52)

Service and the cost of service has always been a difficulty. How many missionaries struggle to serve an yet the pew sitters worry over the length of a sermon?

The single hinderance to acknowledgement of sin is the loss and cost.(Mark 10)

The single hinderance to the work of the Holy Spirit is pride based quenching by not being thankful for every circumstance and reliance upon God (1 Thess. 5)

Why did the disciples, being astonished, ask the question?
Because their background was based upon the authority of the temple and temple rituals.

Therefore, Christ used the occasion to demonstrate that God was the authority of all salvation, not man, and not the riches.

All man does and can do to gain serves as a hindrance to service, but God is the authority over salvation.

Unless service is devoted to following Christ, it means nothing.

 

[Van]

SNIP.

1) Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? If Calvinism were true, and it is not, then it would not be hard as the rich or poor would all be conveyed into the kingdom by "irresistible grace." Thus the fact that it is hard for a rich person demonstrates Calvinism is as bogus as a three dollar bill.