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A Nation of Baby Killers?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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Palatka51 said:
Bingo. That is the one verse if you stretch the meaning speaks to abortion. But, notice it comes down on the side of the mother. I say it is a stretch as the passage is speaking directly about physical violence against a woman that is against her will. From the Broadman Commentary, V. 1, p422:
Injury to a woman during pregnancy, resulting in a miscarrage [note, nothing about abortion ... my note] was satisfied by an appropriate fine, suggested by the husband and paid under the supervision of the judges.
Verse 23 appears to be very similiar to 210 of the Code of Hammurabi. If we accept this, then the passage sides with the life of the woman and not the child. Note: I have never been comfortable with this verse, but it is there and I have to accept it.
Later on the same page, column 2:
The Code of Hammurabi dealt extensively with the matter of miscarrage produced by a blow.
209: If a seignior struck a (mother) seignoir's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage, he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus Note: the word fetus is used, not child.
210 If that woman has died, they shall put his daughter to death Note, a fine is imposed if the fetus dies, but the death of the woman calls for the death of the offenders daughter.
211 If by a blow he has caused a commoner's daughter to have a miscarrage, he shall pay five shekels of silver
212 If the woman died, he shall pay one-third mina of silver Note: The life of commoners were not worth as much as that of nobles.
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Sorry, here are only a few verses where the unborn is called a child - there are more, don't have time to post them, getting ready to go somewhere.
Matthew 1:[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 2:
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
Judges 13[7] But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
[8] Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.
[12] And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?
[24] And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.
This is an excerpt of a sermon I preached on Sanctity of Life Sunday:Crabtownboy said:
"In researching for this message I found something very interesting. We need to remember that the New Testament as originally written in Greek, and they had had more than one word for our English word, “child.” The most common word, found over 98 times in the New Testament is the word “TEKNON.” This word talks about a child in relation to a parent. But, there is an interesting word for “child” that is found only 8 times in the New Testament that sheds a great deal of light on what the Bible teaches about the unborn. Its the Greek word “BREPHOS.” These are the verses where it is found:
--Acts 7:19 - This man dealt treacherously with our people, and oppressed our forefathers, making them expose their babies [BREPHOS], so that they might not live.
--Luke 18:15 - Then they also brought infants [BREPHOS] to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
--2 Timothy 3:15 - and that from childhood [BREPHOS] you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
--1 Peter 2:2 - as newborn babes [BREPHOS], desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,
--Luke 2:12 - And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe [BREPHOS] wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.
--Luke 2:16 - And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe [BREPHOS] lying in a manger.
"Now in these verses, the word “BREPHOS” describes a baby who has already been born. An infant child who is outside the womb. But there are two other verses that use this word:
--Luke 1:41 - And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe [BREPHOS] leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
--Luke 1:44 - For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe [BREPHOS] leaped in my womb for joy.
"Notice that in these verses the same word used for a child already born is used for a child still in the womb. I believe this makes it clear that God considers the unborn child as much a human being, as much a person as the child outside the womb."
There's just no getting around it. The unborn child is a child.
LadyEagle said:
But if you read my revised post you will see that the life of the mother was considered more important than that of the fetus. And it is speaking about physical violence against the woman against her will. So, it is a stretch to say this passage deals with abortion.
It is the only passage in the Bible that can be considered at all in speaking about abortion ... and then it is against the woman's will.
I am not saying I like this passage, but it is there and it says what it says, so I accept it. I cannot in honesty say that it says what it does not say.
Crabtownboy said:
Wrong. The bible tells us John the Baptist found salvation while in the womb.
Good thing there wasn't Roe vs. wade back then, eh ?
Bro. Curtis said:
Another extremely liberal interpretation. The verse talks about salvation, not abortion. It is liberal and dishonest to attempt to force the Bible to say what it does not say in order to prove a point of a belief held. I have found it interesting how many who call themselves fundamental on this board take such liberties with what the Bible really says.
And, yet I am accused of being liberal.
OK, so yer telling me J the B was saved, but he wasn't yet a person ? Are you really saying that ?
:laugh:
Oh boy.
BTW, mine would be a LITERAL application, not a LIBERAL one. Big difference. A liberal will bend over backwards trying to justify the murder of an unborn, while a conservative would take the words of Job, when he talked of God forming him in his mother's womb, and say a fetus has life. Also, there are references in scripture to life being in the blood, so a jumping fetus being biblically not a person is an absolutely preposterous idea. Extremely liberal application of certain scripture, and outright denial of others.
:laugh:
Oh boy.
BTW, mine would be a LITERAL application, not a LIBERAL one. Big difference. A liberal will bend over backwards trying to justify the murder of an unborn, while a conservative would take the words of Job, when he talked of God forming him in his mother's womb, and say a fetus has life. Also, there are references in scripture to life being in the blood, so a jumping fetus being biblically not a person is an absolutely preposterous idea. Extremely liberal application of certain scripture, and outright denial of others.
Can you tell me why a baby not yet alive would need the Holy Spirit ?
Bro. Curtis said:
According to the Bible there is no life, therefore no baby, until the first breath. I never said the Holy Spirit is needed before birth ... and neither does the verse you quoted. Again, you are taking a very liberal interpretation and attempting to have the Bible say what it does not say.
According to the bible, J the B was saved in the womb. Is it your contention that he was not yet alive ? That he was not a baby ?
Are you catholic ? Do you believe the Holy Spirit can also enter someone who's life has passed ?
Bro. Curtis said:
I am only saying that the Bible says there is no life before the first breath. If they were saved in the womb, great. God can do that.
Bro. Curtis said:
No, not Catholic. I am a traditional Baptist, not a modern one. I have not sold my sold to the modern American SBC'ers, who really are not Baptist, except in name, and I do not confuse Christianity, being a follower of Christ, with the American culture. And, yes I am American .... born in Virginia with ancestors dating back to the 1600's on both sides. I try very hard not to read into Bible passage what is not there ... even if I am not happy with the passage.
I am not sure what you mean by "Holy Spirit can also enter someone who's life has passed." Never heard that thought, and am not sure what you mean.
Crabtownboy said:
Where does God save anybody not yet alive ? If the baby isn't alive yet, then it has not yet inherited Adam's sinful nature, and has no need for the Holy Spirit. The argument fails.
I think you are adding to scripture, to justify something you know is evil. You have not proved to me that life doesn't happen until the first breath, the bible is clear on how precious the unborn child is. A liberal would twist it into something it is not. No matter where you were born, or now live.
I'd quit, You are looking foolish.
Crabtownboy said:
Simple, if a baby not yet alive can be saved, why not someone who's life is over ?
Bro. Curtis said:
Have not thought about that in that way. Can a person be saved after they die who was not saved during their life?
Well, that raises a number of questions:
1. Had that person ever heard of Christ before their died?
2. If they had heard, had they heard enough to know they had to make a decision for or against Christ?
3. What was the age of the person?
4. What was the mental capability of the person?
5. What kind of circumstance would bring about the person's salvation?
What is your opinion?
Bro. Curtis said:
How can I be adding to scripture when I take it as it says, and do not try to take verses out of context to justify my beliefs. You are taking a very liberal approach to the Bible.
Life ...............
genesis 2:7 --"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Sounds clear to me. Man 'became a LIVING SOUL" AFTER the 'BREATH of life.
“There is a spirit [Hebrew, ruach, breath] in man: and the inspiration [breathing in] of the Almighty gives them understanding. ... The spirit [Hebrew, ruach, breath] of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life.”
Job 32:8 and 33:4
I was born and drew my first breath and then I lived. It is not I that is taking liberties with the Bible. You are denying the breath of life. But, I expect you have not thought about this rathen than have denied it.
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