A question about Calvinisum

[Brother Bob]

If they are not His sheep.

You just can't say it can you?

Do you believe that the vast majority of God's creation will not have their hearts regenerated by God because He chooses not to regenerate them, and lets them go to Hell?? Now step up to the plate.

 

[Hanna]

Is regeneration and born again the same thing? If not how are they different?

 

[Brother Bob]

I think they are the same and take place the same time. When you get a new heart then you are "born again".
But thats just me.

 

[Allan]

Is regeneration and born again the same thing? If not how are they different?

You can not contextually show that regeneration and born again ARE NOT the same as being saved. The main reason is context in which Christ uses the actual birthing process as the equivelent symbolism physically to that which happens spiritually.
Being born phycally places you INTO a famaly and automatically gives you family rights as you are born into that family and all that comes with it.
This is why Jesus goes on to state that:
You know the wind is there because you hear it but you have no clue where it is going or where it has been. You aren't the wind so you have no clue. (obvious paraphrase)
Regeneration (In the Calvinst sence) is not the same as being saved for being saved means to be IN Christ so to is the illistration of being born again as you are Born INTO Christ. This is not regeneration as in one day coming INTO Christ but the New Birth IS IN Christ being in the Family of God.

An interesting study:
But look up every instance in the bible concerning regeneration and in what context it is in. I can not find even the a portion that equates born again and regeneration equating not being saved in context.

 

[Brother Bob]

You can not contextually show that regeneration and born again ARE NOT the same as being saved.

I agree with Allan,

 

[J.D.]

You can not contextually show that regeneration and born again ARE NOT the same as being saved. The main reason is context in which Christ uses the actual birthing process as the equivelent symbolism physically to that which happens spiritually.
Being born phycally places you INTO a famaly and automatically gives you family rights as you are born into that family and all that comes with it.
This is why Jesus goes on to state that:
You know the wind is there because you hear it but you have no clue where it is going or where it has been. You aren't the wind so you have no clue. (obvious paraphrase)
Regeneration (In the Calvinst sence) is not the same as being saved for being saved means to be IN Christ so to is the illistration of being born again as you are Born INTO Christ. This is not regeneration as in one day coming INTO Christ but the New Birth IS IN Christ being in the Family of God.

An interesting study:
But look up every instance in the bible concerning regeneration and in what context it is in. I can not find even the a portion that equates born again and regeneration equating not being saved in context.

"Salvation" is an over-arching term that, depending on the context of a given scripture, might be a reference to the entire historical redemptive purpose of God; or, it might be a reference to some particular phase of His plan, or even an effect of His plan.

"Regenerated" can mean "saved" in certain contexts. But in no case is "regeneration" equal to to "salvation" is it's over-arching context.

Individual salvation consists of particular parts, such as:

Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Add to that list the concepts of redemption, adoption, reconciliation, and on we could go.

But to simplify things, I like the way D. James Kennedy puts it - "The history of the world can be summed up in three words - generation, degeneration, and regeneration."

The bottom line is that salvation is "of God". If your theology does not describe it that way, you should re-think your theology.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

That is more like it? God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[J.D.]

Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

That is more like it? God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

So, if man converts himself by believing and repenting, does he predestinate himself to glory by his own will?

 

[reformedbeliever]

So, if man converts himself by believing and repenting, does he predestinate himself to glory by his own will?

This comes back again to whether belief and repentence is an exercise of the will. Belief is an exercise of the will just as repentence would be. They fail to realize that John 1 says we are born again not by the will of man. I do not understand why they can not believe scripture.

 

[J.D.]

This comes back again to whether belief and repentence is an exercise of the will. Belief is an exercise of the will just as repentence would be. They fail to realize that John 1 says we are born again not by the will of man. I do not understand why they can not believe scripture.

And likewise, Rom 9:16 "it is not of him that wills". I suppose man feels threatened by God's sovereignty.

 

[Jarthur001]

Is regeneration and born again the same thing? If not how are they different?

I feel they are the same. But one must read the context to be sure.

Here are a few statements that may help one understand Calvinist views on this...

By God Alone

Rebirth or regeneration is monergistic, not synergistic. It is done by God and by God alone. A dead man cannot cooperate with his resurrection. Lazarus did not cooperate in his resurrection. Regeneration is a sovereign act of God in which man plays no role. After God brings us to life, of course, we certainly are involved in “cooperating” with Him. We are to believe, trust, obey, and work for him. But unless God acts first, we will never be reborn in the first place. We must also realize it is not as if dead people have faith, and because of their faith God agrees to regenerate them. Rather, it is because God has regenerated us and given us new life that we have faith.

R. C. Sproul, Tabletalk, 1989

New Birth

The new birth or regeneration is an inner recreating of fallen human nature by the Holy Spirit. It changes the disposition from lawless, godless self-seeking into one of trust and love, of repentance for past rebelliousness and unbelief, and loving compliance with God’s law henceforth. It enlightens the blinded mind to discern spiritual realities and liberates and energizes the enslaved will for free obedience to God.

The use of the figure of new birth to describe this change emphasizes two facts about it. The first is its decisiveness. The regenerate man has forever ceased to be the man he was; his old life is over and a new life has begun; he is a new creature in Christ, buried with him out of reach of condemnation and raised with him into a new life of righteousness.

The second fact emphasized is that regeneration is due to the free, and to us, mysterious, exercise of divine power. Infants do not induce or cooperate in their own procreation and birth; no more can those who are dead in trespasses and sins prompt the quickening operation of God’s Spirit within them.

Your Father Loves You by James Packer, Harold Shaw Publishers, 1986, page for January 22

Reborn Spiritually

Being reborn; the subject of Jesus’ discourse with Nicodemus in John 3 (cf. Titus 3:5). This word is not found often in Scripture, but the idea is important. Regeneration is seen to be the work of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). The “natural man” always thinks of salvation (however understood) as resting in one’s own hands, but Jesus taught that it is necessary for a divine work to take place if anyone is to be saved. Sinners must be reborn spiritually.”

The Shaw Pocket Bible Handbook, Walter A. Elwell, Editor, (Harold Shaw Publ., Wheaton , IL; 1984), p. 355

Regeneration


Its necessity John 3:7, Gal. 6:15 Eph. 2:2
Its nature John 3:5; 2 Cor. 2:1-7; 5:17; Eph. 2:10
Its agent John 3:8; 6:63; 2 Cor. 3:6; Titus 3:5
Its instrument 1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18; John 5:24
Its means 1 John 5:1; Gal. 3:26; John 1:12-13
Its fruit 1 John 3:9; Rom. 6:22 1 John 3:10
Its manifestation 1 John 5:1-2, 3:6
From the Book of 750 Bible and Gospel Studies, 1909, George W Noble, Chicago

The Covenant

Ezekiel 36:25-8

The Lord proclaims His grace abroad!
“Behold, I change your hearts of stone;
Each shall renounce his idol-god,
And serve, henceforth, the Lord alone.

“My grace, a flowing stream, proceeds
To wash your filthiness away;
Ye shall abhor your former deeds,
And learn my statutes to obey.

“My truth the great design ensures,
I give myself away to you;
You shall be mine, I will be yours,
Your God unalterably true.

“Yet not unsought, or unimplored,
The plenteous grace I shall confer;
No—your whole hearts shall seek the Lord,
I’ll put a praying spirit there.

“From the first breath of life divine
Down to the last expiring hour,
The gracious work shall all be mine,
Begun and ended in my power.”

Olney Hymns, by William Cowper, from Cowper’s Poems, Sheldon & Company, New York

 

[Jarthur001]

Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

That is more like it? God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

What is election for as viewed in the order above??

 

[webdog]

What is election for as viewed in the order above??

The Jews......

 

[Jarthur001]

The Jews......

Ok..so we list the order again.

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

God calls ....
Then Converstion happens.....to who?
Then those that are converted, Predestination comes to them...
and so...then the Jews are elected......????
Then the converted, predestined, elected jews are now born again????????

:BangHead:

I think I'll stick to this order..

Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Its more what we find in the Bible.

 

[Allan]

"Salvation" is an over-arching term that, depending on the context of a given scripture, might be a reference to the entire historical redemptive purpose of God; or, it might be a reference to some particular phase of His plan, or even an effect of His plan.

"Regenerated" can mean "saved" in certain contexts. But in no case is "regeneration" equal to to "salvation" is it's over-arching context.

Individual salvation consists of particular parts, such as:

Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Add to that list the concepts of redemption, adoption, reconciliation, and on we could go.

But to simplify things, I like the way D. James Kennedy puts it - "The history of the world can be summed up in three words - generation, degeneration, and regeneration."

The bottom line is that salvation is "of God". If your theology does not describe it that way, you should re-think your theology.

First let us deal with you last line:
I agree absolutely with this and is the main reason why my theology doesn't need to be re-thought. :smilewinkgrin:

You know like everyone else here the salvation we are speaking of is that of 'BEING' Saved or coming into fellowship with Christ.

Regeneration ALWAYS means saved in every context. Please find me anywhere in scripture where the word regeneration is NOT linked explicitly with one who IS saved in proper context. It is purely a philosophical view that this HAS to be as there is no scriptural support of this. Born again in the spiritual sense is equated by Christ Himself with that of being physically born. When you are born you are apart of that family instantly and have all of the rights and privilages therewith.

It is also the reason Christ uses the symbolism of the Snake being lifted up with Himself. In the OT during the Jewish trek to the promised land they sinned yet again and God sent serpents among them as judgment. We find in that story if those poeple bitten by the sepents didn't want to die they had to look upon that sepent on the pole to be healed. Thus they had to ackowledge their sin and repent (turn away from) by looking to the only one that could save them, God. God gave the command to look upon it to be healed (saved from death). Yet we know many did not look upon it for thousands died but many also lived. God revealed their sin and gave them the opportunity to repent but some did not.

Ezk 33:1-20 as does Rom 10 and 11. shows God pleading with Isreal to listen to Him and avoid the Judgment He will have to bring if they don't repent. What these (of many) display quiet clearly is that man is responsible for what he does with the Truth God has revealed to him. Believe or not.

I personaly believe that at the moment of Faith becoming active, Regeneration and repentance are all almost if not simultanious. There is not one scripture that disproves this, but the argument against it is ALL via philosophy and intellectualism. One of the problems with trying to systematize everything is that you must try to find an order where even if God does not give you one.

You rlisting of the order of events is of course from a ViewPoint of Calvinism and no better but rather equal to that of the Non-Cals as they are both ViewPoints of the same Truths. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

This comes back again to whether belief and repentence is an exercise of the will. Belief is an exercise of the will just as repentence would be. They fail to realize that John 1 says we are born again not by the will of man. I do not understand why they can not believe scripture.

You fail to hold that your view of that scripture is OUT of context with the with the verses that surround it.

Let me paraphrase it.
You blood line can not save, anymore than you can make yourself saved (works), only God can save you. Or in the street terms:
Your daddy can't save ya, your work can't save ya, But God who is rich in mercy CAN save ya!

vs 11 - He came unto His own and they did not recieve Him.
Note the word 'recieved' as it is important in the following.

vs. 12 - but to as many as recieved Him it was to them He gave...
Now if regeneration came first it would state - To as many as He gave THEY recieved power to be called... or at the least to that effect... - But we note it does not say this. It says... To as many as RECIEVED Him (1st) to them He gave (2nd) that power was give to them who believed (back again to the first!) This does not center on Man but shows man is responsible for what He does with Truth. How do we know this - Context! Keep reading

vs 13 Which (those who recieved) were not born (saved) of blood (Lineage), nor of the will of flesh (your being good), nor of the will of Man (your doing good - works) but OF God. Man can not save himself by himself when he chooses. Only God can save a man. So God must initiate for salvation to be possible and man MUST respond one way or another, the question is...will man believe God or not?? We are not saving ourselve because we choose to believe but we are resting in the ONLY one who is able to Save us BECAUSE He was willing to offer it to us.

Note also that born here (spiritually born which is called Born agian) is equated with the salvation of God as they were born... of God or better they are born again because God saved them. To which I agree most whole heartedly :thumbs:

You see it isn't speaking of man choosing to believe or recieve God for then WHAT pray tell is the WILL of the flesh???

 

[Tom Butler]

Hanna, in one of your posts way back when, you said this:
I don't take a light view of God's sovereignty at all. I just think He doesn't micromanage all things. It rains, it snows, the wind blows. The purpose for this is to manage the environment. I believe God designed it to run itself. He doesn't have to order every rain drop or summon each breeze.

I zero in on the sentence, "I believe God designed it to run itself." This is is tenet of Deism, which holds that God created the earth, wound it up and let it go.

Most of the people on this board are Theists, a system of thought which holds that not only did God create the heavens and the earth, but also sustains it by His hand.

On another subject, I notice that you have made up your mind on the subject of man's will, and have joined the non-Calvinists. That being the case, we are reduced to arguing among ourselves, an exercise we have gone through with each other many times.

It now seems pointless to post on that subject in order to help you understand Calvinism, since you have joined the debate.

I propose that we all back off since you don't need our help any more.

 

[Allan]

Is regeneration and born again the same thing? If not how are they different?

I feel they are the same. But one must read the context to be sure.

Here are a few statements that may help one understand Calvinist views on this...

I noticed that in all your posted Commentaries and poem not one addresses a single scripture that says one must be regerated BEFORE one can be saved.

Actually Harold Shaw is the only one that brings scripture into the equation but what he establishes is that Regeneration and Renewing of the Holy Spirit is a simultanious event OF Salvation in his referrencing of Titus 3:5 - (4, 6-7) should be read for better context.
I do agree with him, but I see the divine work is God calling (convicting, and revealing) toward man.

 

[Allan]

Hanna, in one of your posts way back when, you said this:
I don't take a light view of God's sovereignty at all. I just think He doesn't micromanage all things. It rains, it snows, the wind blows. The purpose for this is to manage the environment. I believe God designed it to run itself. He doesn't have to order every rain drop or summon each breeze.

I zero in on the sentence, "I believe God designed it to run itself." This is is tenet of Deism, which holds that God created the earth, wound it up and let it go.

Most of the people on this board are Theists, a system of thought which holds that not only did God create the heavens and the earth, but also sustains it by His hand.

On another subject, I notice that you have made up your mind on the subject of man's will, and have joined the non-Calvinists. That being the case, we are reduced to arguing among ourselves, an exercise we have gone through with each other many times.

It now seems pointless to post on that subject in order to help you understand Calvinism, since you have joined the debate.

I propose that we all back off since you don't need our help any more.

I took note of that back then and was 'going' to ask her about that as well. Thanks for bringing it back to the forefront Tom.

And in looking back after reading your post it does appear a side has been choosen or maybe it would be better to say she wasn't looking change sides but didn't understand why Calvinists believe as they do when she looked at it from her point of view?

I think I will agree with you here and wait to see her response. Thanks again Tom.

 

[Hanna]

About the weather thing...I don't take away anything from God's power or ability. I just simply mean that I do not think that when bad things happen that are weather related that He is to blame. We had a chinook wind that followed a snow storm a few years ago. As a result our driveway had a ditch zig zagging down it 8 ft deep in places. Was that God's fault? NOOOOOO. Did he cause it to snow, then for there to be a chinook so my driveway could be washed away? NOOOOOOOOO.

As to making my mind up about anything....I came here wanting to understand. It was not about what I do or don't believe.