A question about Calvinisum

[webdog]

Looks like Paul changed his mind have way though this.....



1st he was saying we were all the same IN CHRIST....but now really he meant only Jews holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering,.....

Ok...now I understand.

In Christ, yes we are all the same. Gentile believers aren't "in the elect", though, we are "in Christ" ALONG with the "elect" of God (jewish beleivers).

BTW, this Church was a potpouri of jews and gentiles alike, with a number of heresies and judaism within the four walls of Church. The rendering of the greek can also read "put on therefore as the elect" without the comma after therefore or plainly "clothe yourselves as the elect". Changes the meaning, IMO.

 

[Jarthur001]

In Christ, yes we are all the same. Gentile believers aren't "in the elect", though, we are "in Christ" ALONG with the "elect" of God (jewish beleivers).

BTW, this Church was a potpouri of jews and gentiles alike, with a number of heresies and judaism within the four walls of Church. The rendering of the greek can also read "put on therefore as the elect" without the comma after therefore or plainly "clothe yourselves as the elect". Changes the meaning, IMO.

In Christ means we are saved. In the world means we are not saved. We are choosen..into salvation, which means salvation comes after the choosing

 

[webdog]

Never mind. There is no changing you. Believe what you want.

I think its funny

Elect means Choosen....not Jewish. You can say any thing you want...but still it means choosen. Its where we get the word...well...election. We elect someone to office. We chose.

The Jews are the elect in the OT...choosen by God. In the NT we have the Jews as a nation on hold...and God has a people...chosen by Him in the body of the church. Yet each member is choosen By God.

It is clear...but I'll not try to force it on ya.

Elect does mean "chosen", but it is how it is applied that makes all of the difference. As I pointed out earlier, Judas was "chosen"...Pharaoh was "chosen" and they were not the "elect". Abraham was chosen...Isaac was chosen...Jacob was chosen (all sovereignly, I might add) and they were clearly the "elect".

 

[webdog]

In Christ means we are saved. In the world means we are not saved. We are choosen..into salvation, which means salvation comes after the choosing

...according to your theology

 

[Jarthur001]

In Christ means we are saved. In the world means we are not saved. We are choosen..into salvation, which means salvation comes after the choosing

A few verse to go with what I said...

Rom. 11:7

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

2 Thess. 2:13

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

 

[Jarthur001]

...according to your theology

And as it turns out...according to the Bible.
see post above.

I think that is about all we can get out of this thread.

I want to think the MODs for keeping it open longer then norm.


Good debate.... I need to do some work now.


In Christ..James

ADDED...
I would like to get it above 4000 viewers...being that few get that high. I'll call my mother and see if she can sign on 100 times. That should do it.

 

[webdog]

Romans 11 clearly shows the difference between Israel (heritage) and Israel (in Christ), what I stated earlier Romans 9-11 is dealing with...the jewish problem, and the "God" solution.

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

How?

2Th 2:13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Gotta run also. Been fun James

 

[Jarthur001]

Romans 11 clearly shows the difference between Israel (heritage) and Israel (in Christ), what I stated earlier Romans 9-11 is dealing with...the jewish problem, and the "God" solution.

How?

2Th 2:13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Gotta run also. Been fun James

yep. Still...the choosen was to salvation. Or as your translation put is. For salvation. That was the plan of election. The Choosen was to save people.

isa 43?? 41?? somewhere. the Jews in this case was choosen to believe

 

[Blammo]

James,

I believe the point is:

You do not want to equate "chosen" with "elect". In the theology you subscribe to, "elect" means chosen for salvation. However, "chosen" does not necessarily mean "elect".

So, when Webdog asks you to show where anyone but the nation of Israel is referred to as the elect, don't answer it with a verse that does not include the word "elect". When you post a verse that uses the word "chosen", you are not answering the question.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,

I believe the point is:

You do not want to equate "chosen" with "elect". In the theology you subscribe to, "elect" means chosen for salvation. However, "chosen" does not necessarily mean "elect".

So, when Webdog asks you to show where anyone but the nation of Israel is referred to as the elect, don't answer it with a verse that does not include the word "elect". When you post a verse that uses the word "chosen", you are not answering the question.

Why do we always forget CONTEXT???


Words on there own mean very little. This is my biggest pet peeve when talking theology. Yes, both sides do it. I was wrong with 1 Peter in this very thread. 1 Peter is addressing the jews. Yet 2nd peter is not addressing the Jewish believe alone. 2nd Peter addresses the whole church of believers.

As to choosen... Choosen means election. We place "the word" in context to see who is choosen. To limit words into groups and classes, would place Bible meaning to a all new level. Its the context that matters.

Also...I'm sure webdog appreciates you pointing out the "point". However maybe you show tell webdog his point, for it was not as you just stated. This is been a debate point from webdog for a few months. If you look before in this thread, the main point was the elect only is talking about jews...

Webdog said..

That wasn't my list I was stating who "election" is for. If you can show in context where the "elect" are any other than jews, I'm all cyber ears.

link
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=913332&postcount=247


In fact this his been the "main ponit for a while as seen below. You may want to take the time and read the whole thread. It is very short. But in it you will see this has been addressed before.

webdog said...

Can someone show Scripture showing the "elect" being referred to a gentile? In every instance, I see it referring to Israel / jews. I'm beginning to believe the verse stating "not all Israel is Israel", the "..is Israel" are the true elect. Since salvation has been offered to the gentile as a result of the jews denying Christ, is the fact that we are "in Christ" mean we are elect? I know that in Christ there is nether jew or gentile, but does that mean we are grafted into the "elect" and not Christ? How are gentile believers the elect, then?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=885223&postcount=1


I guess I'll see you next month when this comes up again.

 

[Blammo]

Why do we always forget CONTEXT???

Oh boy!!!

You remind me of my brother. (I love my brother, so don't be offended.) He just can't seem to admit when he is wrong. You obviously didn't read my last post, or you ignored what it said.

I said:

So, when Webdog asks you to show where anyone but the nation of Israel is referred to as the elect, don't answer it with a verse that does not include the word "elect". When you post a verse that uses the word "chosen", you are not answering the question.



Webdog asked:

Can someone show Scripture showing the "elect" being referred to a gentile? In every instance, I see it referring to Israel / jews. I'm beginning to believe the verse stating "not all Israel is Israel", the "..is Israel" are the true elect. Since salvation has been offered to the gentile as a result of the jews denying Christ, is the fact that we are "in Christ" mean we are elect? I know that in Christ there is nether jew or gentile, but does that mean we are grafted into the "elect" and not Christ? How are gentile believers the elect, then?

Can you answer this with scripture that uses the word 'elect'?

 

[Jarthur001]

Oh boy!!!

You remind me of my brother. (I love my brother, so don't be offended.) He just can't seem to admit when he is wrong. You obviously didn't read my last post, or you ignored what it said.

I like your brother too blammo.

 

[Hanna]

I became aware of Calvanisum only recently, and I came here not believing that anyone could possibly believe that God would choose only some for salvation and by omission damn the rest. I thought surely I misunderstood. I was wrong, I didn't misunderstand at all.

When I tell someone "God loves you and He wants you to spend eternity with Him in heaven." "If only you will repent and believe, you will be adopted into God's family for all eternity." I can say that knowing it is true, and there is no one to whom I say those words for which it will be a lie.

The discussion has been interesting and I have learned a lot. I have read every word written and I appreciate the time and effort everyone has expended on my question. I also appreciate the courtesy and respect you have shown one another. In spite of our differences on this issue, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are here, regardless how we believe we got here and we are to love one another and I do love all of you.

Thanks
Hanna

 

[Rippon]

Hanna , first of all it's Calvinism -- not Calvanisum . Sometimes the distorted views held by outsiders of Calvinism make me think that they are aiming their missiles at Calvanisum .

Secondarily , doesn't he Lord have the right to choose some and not all for salvation ? I think many Christians are influenced by Democratic principles rather than biblical ones . All have sinned and deserve damnation . Out of that mass of humanity God has selected some . If he chose all it wouldn't really be election , would it ? God is not an equal-opportunity Savior . Everyone doesn't have a chance at a lottery drawing with redemption as the prize . He decides . His choices are due to His good pleasure . There is no merit in the creature affecting His choices .

 

[reformedbeliever]

If we depended upon human emotionalism and human reasoning and justice, then I would be concerned about what you stated Hanna. But God is not human. God is God. He is the sovereign creator of all that is created. He has the right to dispose of His creation as He sees fit. Our sense of justice is greatly flawed. Every thing we think and do is greatly flawed. Just ask Isaiah when he observed the pre-incarnate Jesus in the Temple. Ask Peter when he realized who Jesus really was. Ask Job.
If everyone would take a second to realize who God really is...and see Him in HIs glory... we would have our face to the ground. The closer I come to Him, the more I realize just how short of the glory I am.
IF it were not for HIs sovereign grace... I'd still be lost.
I have heard from so many how we need to be concilatory (sp?) and to embrace each others different theological bents. I've been told that we should not separate on the minors. The sovereign grace of God to me is not minor. Those who teach and preach synergism are teaching and preaching another gospel. I do not think I can remain in the same denomination as they, nor do I think they want to remain with me. This will become divisive.

 

[Hanna]

RB, Its not emotional, its just Bible.

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB, Its not emotional, its just Bible.

I understand.... that is what calvinism is... just Bible.

 

[webdog]

I guess I'll see you next month when this comes up again.

The fact it keeps coming up, or I keep bringing it up makes no difference. What matters is the simple fact a calvinist cannot answer it as it would throw a monkey wrench into all of those verses you guys use to support this theology.

As far as context goes, I don't believe it is I that is using the phrases "elect" and "chosen" (not "choosen" ) in it's true context, and the reformed position that rips it from context.

 

[webdog]

I understand.... that is what calvinism is... just Bible.

Your forgot the IMHO

 

[reformedbeliever]

The fact it keeps coming up, or I keep bringing it up makes no difference. What matters is the simple fact a calvinist cannot answer it as it would throw a monkey wrench into all of those verses you guys use to support this theology.

As far as context goes, I don't believe it is I that is using the phrases "elect" and "chosen" (not "choosen" ) in it's true context, and the reformed position that rips it from context.

It is your faulty exegesis, or lack thereof, that the reference to the elect is only to the Jews. You are entitled to your incorrect opinion however. Anyone can be a Jew, and the Bible states that not all Jews are elect. We are adopted in by the sovereign grace of God. I'm sure you will disagree however. You are entitled to your incorrect opinion however. That is my correct opinion.