He was saved the day he was born.
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A question about Noah...
- Thread starter Skandelon
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He was saved the day he was born.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Of course Abraham had a nephew--Lot. Of course Lot was rescued. But, Lot is not held up as the model that Abraham is. Nevertheless, we the text does say that Abraham worshiped other gods.
Here's the quote again:
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out. (Joshua 24:2-5 ESV)
Notice: "Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods."
Who is the they? Fathers. Who is regarded, even in the New Testament, as the father of the Jews? Abraham. Certainly Abraham is included in the "they" as far as worshiping other Gods.
Abraham was your typical, run-of-the-mill idol worshiper--just like every other person. Even if he knew of Yahweh (of which there is no evidence) the only contact he would have had with Yahweh was through syncretistic worship practices--an abomination to God in the first place.
There is nothing about Abraham, before God came to him, that made him attractive to God.
What is more, the first statement of Abraham's belief in God and the subsequent accounting of righteousness is long after God comes to Abraham in Genesis 12.
The Archangel
No it does not say that.
Albert Barnes Commentary:
"It is not stated that Abraham himself was an idolater, though his fathers were. Jewish tradition asserts that Abraham while in Ur of the Chaldees was persecuted for his abhorrence of idolatry, and hence, was called away by God from his native land."
You can say anything you want, anybody that can read with comprehension knows Jos 24:2 does not say Abraham was an idolater. See Barnes Notes for example.
The Jews NEVER believed Abraham was an idolater, this is an historical fact, research and see for yourself.
That Calvinists want to pervert this verse to support their doctrine does not change the fact this verse is not saying Abraham was an idolater.
All that is known for a certainty is that by faith Abraham obeyed God when he was called. (Heb 11:8-10)
You are reading into scripture what you WANT it to say, not what it actually says.
The Jews NEVER believed Abraham was an idolater, this is an historical fact, research and see for yourself.
That Calvinists want to pervert this verse to support their doctrine does not change the fact this verse is not saying Abraham was an idolater.
All that is known for a certainty is that by faith Abraham obeyed God when he was called. (Heb 11:8-10)
You are reading into scripture what you WANT it to say, not what it actually says.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Believe
I will not believe anything someone say's I have to trust them first. Someone must give up on themselves to first trust in someone else. This is what God ask from us.
God will do the work in us to believe, trust in Him is the first step. I believe not one person will believe God until they give up on themselves and trust God, today through Jesus Christ, not looking to the one to come, but the one who has come and will come again.
I had no idea what to believe until i stopped trusting in my self and what I can do and trust in God through Jesus Christ in His finished work.
Some don't mind trusting in election to save them if they believe it comes from God some will not, they only trust in God to elect those who believe. Jesus tells us if we believe in Him we will be saved and that simple faith is all they need. They will not believe in the election as some see it, even though God knows who will be saved from the beginning to end. It does not take away being responsible for our own actions.
I believe our belief comes from God from His word, but trust in God comes from us, and trust in God is not work it is rest from work. Through trust comes belief from God and that belief grows into faith. A child has this in their parents because their parents have taken care of them. How much do you trust God will take care of you?
God said.
2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”
Noah displayed this, he trust in God when the world around him didn't. What a witness to us all.
I will not believe anything someone say's I have to trust them first. Someone must give up on themselves to first trust in someone else. This is what God ask from us.
God will do the work in us to believe, trust in Him is the first step. I believe not one person will believe God until they give up on themselves and trust God, today through Jesus Christ, not looking to the one to come, but the one who has come and will come again.
I had no idea what to believe until i stopped trusting in my self and what I can do and trust in God through Jesus Christ in His finished work.
Some don't mind trusting in election to save them if they believe it comes from God some will not, they only trust in God to elect those who believe. Jesus tells us if we believe in Him we will be saved and that simple faith is all they need. They will not believe in the election as some see it, even though God knows who will be saved from the beginning to end. It does not take away being responsible for our own actions.
I believe our belief comes from God from His word, but trust in God comes from us, and trust in God is not work it is rest from work. Through trust comes belief from God and that belief grows into faith. A child has this in their parents because their parents have taken care of them. How much do you trust God will take care of you?
God said.
2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”
Noah displayed this, he trust in God when the world around him didn't. What a witness to us all.
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A total red herring.
"David, a man after God's own heart, was so Godly that he committed both adultery and murder."
The reason that God took Abraham was because Abraham believed God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)
--It started from this point.
There is nothing in the quote to suggest that Abraham served other gods all the time he was in Ur
That is an assumption made on your part. The Jews never considered Abraham, the father of their nation, as an idolater.
This is not true. You must look elsewhere for information regarding Abraham.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the and of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: (Hebrews 11:8-9)
And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Hebrews 11:15-16)
Both of the above passages refer to Ur. That is where Abraham believed God. That is where God called Abraham from. Abraham's ancestors and the family from which he came from were idolaters. For how long Abraham practiced idolatry before righteousness was imputed him unto him when he believed in God during that time in Ur, we don't know.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
No. Abraham believed God because God took him.
There is no evidence that Abraham believed God before God came to him. In fact, as Paul appeals to the Abraham episode, it is clear that Abraham believed after God came to him.
But, if you persist with your typically Arminian idea that one must have faith before God comes calling...how do you explain Jacob? I mean, really...he was a lying, cheating, no-good scoundrel for a long time before he came to any discernible faith. God was obviously doing something with (and to) him before there was any faith. How does one explain that?
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The fact of the matter is that the Old Testament text says faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness after Genesis 12.
In fact, the Old Testament text goes out of its way to demonstrate that Abraham, in fact, had little to no faith in God's promises. We see this in Genesis 12 where God tells Abraham all that He is going to do. Then we see Abraham lying to Pharaoh about Sarah being his wife. Does that demonstrate faith? No, of course not.
How can Abraham believe God--when God tells him that he will become a great nation--and then lie to protect his own life? Really?! How can God's promises be fulfilled if he's dead? He should have known that his life would never be in danger...had he believed God's promises. His lying (and he does this charade twice) demonstrates that he is not, in fact, believing God at that point. Had he believed God, he would not have lied about Sarah being his sister.
Your insistence that Abraham had to have faith before leaving Ur is based in your presupposition that God only uses those who first have faith. In fact, almost the entire book of Genesis shows that God chooses faithless people and instills faith into them.
The Archangel
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God never reproves Jacob for anything he did. Many preachers do, but God doesn't. There is not one word of Scripture that denounces the actions of Jacob. You may call him a liar, a cheat, a scoundrel, etc. But God doesn't. So take up your argument with God. The fact is that Jacob believed God and his brother did not.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously going to try to make the argument that God chose Jacob over Esau because Jacob was already a believer and Esau wasn't?!
If you indeed try to make this argument, your stock will plummet precipitously in my sight (not that you would care), for it would prove that you have no idea about that which you are speaking.
The Archangel
I would make that argument. The reason that God chose Jacob is because in his foreknowledge he saw Jacob would believe.
And Jacob did believe, that is why he wanted the birthright, he believed the promise made to Abraham and his father Isaac. Esau did not believe the promise, therefore he was willing to sell his birthright for a meal. (Gen 25:29-34)
DHK is correct, Heb 11:8 refers to Gen 11:31. This is when Abram left Ur to go into Canaan. Read Barnes Notes on Gen 11:31, he goes into detail on this verse, saying that Terah left Ur because of Abram. It is true that they entered Haran and Terah died there.
Gen 12:1 is refering BACK to Gen 11:31. This is shown by the words "had said unto Abram". Abram was called by God when he was in Ur, not Haran. Heb 11:8 is speaking of Abraham when he was called by God in Ur. Abraham believed God and obeyed him, and set out for Canaan.
Again, the scriptures never say Abraham was an idolater.
And so Jacob was chosen because he did (or would do) better than Esau, and NOT as the Scriptures state, so that God's purposes according to election might stand.
Is the choice God's or yours?
preacher4truth
Active Member
That is exactly true.
freeatlast
New Member
No one is saved at birth. (physical birth) If they were they would not need to be born again.
preacher4truth
Active Member
If a person is His elect, they are safe from birth to the second birth. Already chose in in Him before the foundation of the world, already His.
freeatlast
New Member
Even if your election philosophy is correct the person is not saved at birth. They have to be born again later at some point in time to be saved.
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