A question about Noah...

[DHK]

You're still incorrect. You're the one who calls His plan random. He doesn't call it that. You do.

Also, there is not a thing about the ambigous relationship of God and Enoch that suggests it was random. That's just a false non-theological unscriptural term you've used to label it with in reference to the world of God in election. Obviously it was God who has Himself chosen all of His people. This is dogma, and applies here as well. It also dismantles your proof-text and feeble theology.

That you don't like it doesn't do a thing to this truth of Scripture.

God called Abraham, why?
Because Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.

God called Enoch. Why? Because Enoch walked with God.

God called Noah. Why? Because he was a Godly man who was righteous in the sight of God and had found grace in his sight.

This is what the Scripture teaches. If you deny these very basic truths in the light of your own preconceived ideas, then you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by some other man's system of theology instead of plain biblical teaching.

 

[preacher4truth]

God called Abraham, why?
Because Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.

God called Enoch. Why? Because Enoch walked with God.

God called Noah. Why? Because he was a Godly man who was righteous in the sight of God and had found grace in his sight.

This is what the Scripture teaches. If you deny these very basic truths in the light of your own preconceived ideas, then you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by some other man's system of theology instead of plain biblical teaching.

Wrong again. God called and chose Abram in Genesis 12, not Genesis 15. Cart before the horse for you yet again. Get it straight.

You remain incorrect.

 

[Aaron]

The implication in scripture is that there was a "reason" other than some mysterious decree...

No other reason is needed or given than God's will.

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time and he walked with God. Why did Noah walk with God? Had he be regenerated?

You look at the fruit of faith, and call it the root. No one chooses faith. One either has it or not. Men either possess it by nature, or it is given by God. Calvinists give God the glory for faith, noncalvinists give men the glory.

You so love to toss around the allegations of blasphemy and its cousin heresy.

Truth is truth and error is error. I seldom use the terms, but I give no quarter to error.

 

[DHK]

Wrong again. God called and chose Abram in Genesis 12, not Genesis 15. Cart before the horse for you yet again. Get it straight.

You remain incorrect.

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. (Genesis 11:31)

And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Hebrews 11:15-16)
--This refers to the land of Ur.
God called him right from the land of Ur. It was there that he believed on God.

 

[preacher4truth]

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. (Genesis 11:31)

And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Hebrews 11:15-16)
--This refers to the land of Ur.
God called him right from the land of Ur. It was there that he believed on God.

One more time. God chose Abram prior to him saying he believed God. He was already saved in Genesis 12. You're incorrect. Still. Get it straight.

 

[DHK]

One more time. God chose Abram prior to him saying he believed God. He was already saved in Genesis 12. You're incorrect. Still. Get it straight.

Yes, that is what I said. Chapter 11 is prior to chapter 12. I pointed you to chapter 11, the place where the Lord called him our of Ur. That is where he believed.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

 

[preacher4truth]

No other reason is needed or given than God's will.

You look at the fruit of faith, and call it the root. No one chooses faith. One either has it or not. Men either possess it by nature, or it is given by God. Calvinists give God the glory for faith, noncalvinists give men the glory.

Truth is truth and error is error. I seldom use the terms, but I give no quarter to error.

Exactly. This "mysterous decree" nonsense (from qaif) reeks of "man has to know and it must meet man's reason" in order for it to be correct, as though man is judging Gods actions (which in essence is what is happening here). Otherwise it's labeled "mysterious decree."

It doesn't matter if man accepts it, understands it, likes it, or thinks it's fair. God is still God and God is Sovereign in spite of man.

:thumbsup:

 

[beameup]

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time and he walked with God. Why did Noah walk with God? Had he be regenerated?

Noah was both "righteous" AND "without blemish".
The Holy Spirit uses TWO Hebrew words to describe Noah:
tsad·dēk' - righteous (spiritual condition) - Noah used the same system of sacrifice of an innocent animal that was instituted by God after the fall. (see Cain/Able)
tä·mēm' "without blemish" (genetically pure - used in describing animals that were offered up as a sacrifice)

The offspring of Genesis 6 were hybrids (nephilim) and the entire human genome was on the verge of being genetically corrupted.

 

[Skandelon]

I find it humorous that Scandal classifies Jonah's and Paul's experiences as "normative."

When I speak of "normative" I simply mean "outward" or through human agents, as opposed to God simply "flipping a switch" in Jonah's heart to make his will change. If there is another word you'd like to use to communicate that distinction please feel free to suggest one.

First, Jonah's will was not changed. He did not willingly go to Ninevah. He was carried there quite against his will. He was coerced to preach, and was bitter and depressed over Ninevah's repentance. There was no change in Jonah's heart.

He went reluctantly yes, but he's acting according do his desire ("free" as defined by compatibilistic scholars, btw). His desire not to be punished by God maybe, but nevertheless he went. God didn't have him tied up and drug to Nineveh. Either way, the point I made is not altered by such a distinction.

Second, no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, and that isn't an outward, natural or visible work. It is supernatural, and invisible, but it is not secret, as libelously asserted by Scandal.

That verse is about demon possession, but I wouldn't expect you to start considering the context of your proof texts now.

 

[Skandelon]

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time and he walked with God."

I think you must of misquoted the text quantum, are you sure it didn't say, "God made Noah a righteous man blameless among the people that grieved God because God chose not to make them righteous like Noah he did Noah." :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Boy, wasn't Noah lucky?

Bible believers know Noah was Blessed by God.....and as God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass...there is no such thing as luck:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Curious to just WHERE in the NT that Skan and others here see 'corporate election" by God, that God chose the "plan" to have those saved to be added into Body of Christ...

After this answer I expect you NOT to ask this question again. You can argue against our view, but do NOT just keep asking me the same question, okay?

Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:

(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.

(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).

(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).

(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).

(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).

(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10).

(2) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ (i.e., the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:5, 7, 13; cf. Ac 2:38-41; 16:31).

Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]

 

[The Archangel]

God called Abraham, why?
Because Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake...

This is what the Scripture teaches. If you deny these very basic truths in the light of your own preconceived ideas, then you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by some other man's system of theology instead of plain biblical teaching.

Nope. I wonder whose presuppositions are driving things?

The scripture clearly states that when God called Abram, he (Abram) was an idol worshiper:

And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out. (Joshua 24:2-5 ESV)
​

So, the thought that Abram first believed God is errant. As is the pattern in Genesis, God chooses someone and then puts them through a crucible to generate faith in Himself. Certainly Abraham falls into that mold, Jacob does, Judah does... It's all over the Book of Genesis.

So, your presupposition that Abraham had to first believe in God for God to call him is just not scriptural.

The Archangel

 

[Robert Snow]

The implicaton here is that Noah was chosen on the basis of some good he had done. And that is the great blasphemy of noncalvinistic thought. Some will deny it, but it doesn't change the fact that if Calvinism is not the Gospel, then men are chosen based upon their own good and favorable responses to the revelations of God, either through nature or otherwise.

I guess with all your pontificating, you failed to read my actual words. You might find better luck in you communication skills if you responded to what was written, and not what you assume was meant, because you really aren't that smart.

 

[Robert Snow]

Bible believers know Noah was Blessed by God.....and as God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass...there is no such thing as luck:thumbs::thumbs:

Wrong on one count.

 

[Iconoclast]

Nope. I wonder whose presuppositions are driving things?

The scripture clearly states that when God called Abram, he (Abram) was an idol worshiper:

And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out. (Joshua 24:2-5 ESV)
​

So, the thought that Abram first believed God is errant. As is the pattern in Genesis, God chooses someone and then puts them through a crucible to generate faith in Himself. Certainly Abraham falls into that mold, Jacob does, Judah does... It's all over the Book of Genesis.

So, your presupposition that Abraham had to first believe in God for God to call him is just not scriptural.

The Archangel

Good verse to illustrate the point in question...thank you.

 

[quantumfaith]

No other reason is needed or given than God's will.

You look at the fruit of faith, and call it the root. No one chooses faith. One either has it or not. Men either possess it by nature, or it is given by God. Calvinists give God the glory for faith, noncalvinists give men the glory.

Truth is truth and error is error. I seldom use the terms, but I give no quarter to error.

blas·phe·my

1.
a. A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
b. The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
2. An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

Don't see it in your claim. You certainly have every right to think anyone is wrong, but your claim of blasphemy is simply incorrect.

 

[Winman]

Nope. I wonder whose presuppositions are driving things?

The scripture clearly states that when God called Abram, he (Abram) was an idol worshiper:

And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out. (Joshua 24:2-5 ESV)
​

So, the thought that Abram first believed God is errant. As is the pattern in Genesis, God chooses someone and then puts them through a crucible to generate faith in Himself. Certainly Abraham falls into that mold, Jacob does, Judah does... It's all over the Book of Genesis.

So, your presupposition that Abraham had to first believe in God for God to call him is just not scriptural.

The Archangel

False. It does not say Abraham was in idolater, it says his father Terah, and his brother Nahor were. You read into this verse what it does not say. The Jews have NEVER believed Abraham was an idolater.

By the way, Abraham had another brother named Haran, who is not mentioned as an idolater here. Haran was the father of Lot who we know is a believer. (2 Pet 2:7)

 

[Iconoclast]

Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ,

This is speaking about what the people do...election is all about what God has done.

But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union [/QUOTE]

This is man centered error and a works based gospel...which is no gospel....
while using the language of grace,and using the words elect,and union ,tries to give it credibility......it fails because it is not Gods grace being spoken of in reality.

At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (thSummary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855] e church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

This is totally wrong as God has made His eternal plan before the world was.
This same error keeps coming up....a ship... a train....gets elected....and any ungodly person who steals a ticket can put himself on the trian...then he will be made holy... I am not buying what this guy is selling as it contradicts the clear teaching of Grace,

 

[percho]

God called Abraham, why?
Because Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.

God called Enoch. Why? Because Enoch walked with God.

God called Noah. Why? Because he was a Godly man who was righteous in the sight of God and had found grace in his sight.

This is what the Scripture teaches. If you deny these very basic truths in the light of your own preconceived ideas, then you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by some other man's system of theology instead of plain biblical teaching.

And God called Saul/Paul while he was heading down the Road to kill and or put Christians in prison.

All of those above were the called, sheep therefore they believed God.

Noah was so Godly that when he got off the boat he got drunk and let evil things happen before his eyes.