Aaron, thank you for your stellar work in handling this issue. This is where I had hoped to go with Manageriekeeper before I ran out of time and couldn't get back to it. No doubt about it, the atonement was made for GOD'S PEOPLE, and no one else; whether it's the temporal atonement for the OT earthly body or the eternal atonement for the NT spiritual body.
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A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)
- Thread starter glfredrick
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I understand the consept as something better referred to as "Total Inability" IE since the Fall man rests under the curse of sin & that he is actuated by wrong principles & that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation. Are we together in this understanding?
"Christ's death appeased God's wrath against sin, faith in Christ appeases God's wrath against sinners"
1) You assert that all sin HAS been atoned for by Christ's death. God's wrath against sin has been appeased.
2) You assert that God is still angry with sinners, unless they bring something of their own.
3) Conclusion: Christ's death did not atone for sinners.
If that's not what you mean, then you gotta change your statement.
You don't know the law, therefore your understanding of the Atonement is erroneous.
:thumbs: Just as Paul said, the law stops every mouth.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
It didn't work on yours apparently
The atonement was made for the whole world as the scripture clearly reveals. You can choose to read into that whatever suits you as evidenced here, but that doesn't change the truth of what God clearly taught through the bible.
This passage pretty much sums it up unless you do some very creative textual gymnastics:
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
This passage CLEARLY reveals the PROVISION of a GIFT is made through Christ for ALL MEN. The same "ALL" who are condemned through the one man's sin are the same "ALL" who are given the provision of LIFE through the one Man's act of righteousness.
It didn't work on yours apparently
The atonement was made for the whole world as the scripture clearly reveals. You can choose to read into that whatever suits you as evidenced here, but that doesn't change the truth of what God clearly taught through the bible.
This passage pretty much sums it up unless you do some very creative textual gymnastics:
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
This passage CLEARLY reveals the PROVISION of a GIFT is made through Christ for ALL MEN. The same "ALL" who are condemned through the one man's sin are the same "ALL" who are given the provision of LIFE through the one Man's act of righteousness.
Scan, didnt you indicate that your Arminian. If so than correct me if I'm wrong , but in your view the efficacy of atonement doesnt rest on Christ's saving work alone but also on the sinners faith and repentance. So the two key items are Christ's death to save all men & the sinners faith & repentance....I just need to insure myself that I have your theology correct. Do I?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I'm sure that there are various forms of Arminianism just as there are within the Calvinistic ranks. I believe that Christ's work appeased the wrath of God and the curse of sin for ALL MANKIND. The only reason someone doesn't go to heaven is because of their unbelief. The atonement is provisional. It is a gift provided to all to be accepted by faith. Understand?
And then so you understand, atonement is of primer importance to us. I consider your theology not exclusively God centered but is distorted in the direction of self. But you already knew that right. No dig, just a difference in interpretation.
I find it funny that todays churches have not split more over this issue of theology especially baptists. Once I found out my pastor would not teach Orthodox Theology, I was forced to leave for a church that does. conversely if I was Arminian or whatever you guys call yourselves, I couldn't sit under a Calvinistic Pastor if I was convinced otherwise. It appears that it just creates more animosity.
My, my, so when you give your loved ones a gift, they must first show their faith to you before you finally give them that gift, eh ?
Shouldn't you call it a reward, instead ?
"All men" are dead in sins and trespass, but are "all men" made alive?
You have to say no. So, you yourself believe in limited atonement, you just think men do the limiting, but the Scriptures say God does the limiting.
Not much time, but another lesson from the law is needed and forthcoming.
Strawman. The gift is receiving salvation through faith. The very fact your loved one accepts your gift shows she has faith in you acquiring it and giving it to her without her having to earn it.
Airhead. The gift is eternal life, not the receiving thereof.
Tom Butler
New Member
I have a couple of scripture passage I want to ask about.
First, the one Skandelon quoted.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
The second is
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation.
Words mean things.
When Paul, in Romans 5:27, speaks of God's abundant provision of grace, it cannot mean provisional grace. Provision and provisional mean different things.
Then, in v. 18, the one act that brings condemnation to all men is clearly all men without exception. However, in the next sentence, when Paul speaks of one act of righteousness which brings justification to all men, we have a problem. Either all men means all without exception, or it doesn't. If it does, then we have universalism. None of us here (I hope), holds to universal salvation. So in that verse, all men must mean something else. Nor does the language permit us to assume that the justification is provisional (meaning conditional). Nor does it allow room for "life for all men" to be provisional. If Paul had simply written "made available justification to life for all men," then we'd have a different discussion.
Then, in 2 Corinthians 5:19, Paul again addresses the matter.. He speaks of God's reconciling the world to himself. If the verse stopped there, then we could have discussion over the extent of that reconciliation. But Paul continues "not imputing their trespasses to them." If "world" means everybody, then we have universalism again.
So, it boils down to this: All men either means all without exception, or something else. World either means everybody, or something else.
There does not appear to be much wiggle room here.
First, the one Skandelon quoted.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
The second is
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation.
Words mean things.
When Paul, in Romans 5:27, speaks of God's abundant provision of grace, it cannot mean provisional grace. Provision and provisional mean different things.
Then, in v. 18, the one act that brings condemnation to all men is clearly all men without exception. However, in the next sentence, when Paul speaks of one act of righteousness which brings justification to all men, we have a problem. Either all men means all without exception, or it doesn't. If it does, then we have universalism. None of us here (I hope), holds to universal salvation. So in that verse, all men must mean something else. Nor does the language permit us to assume that the justification is provisional (meaning conditional). Nor does it allow room for "life for all men" to be provisional. If Paul had simply written "made available justification to life for all men," then we'd have a different discussion.
Then, in 2 Corinthians 5:19, Paul again addresses the matter.. He speaks of God's reconciling the world to himself. If the verse stopped there, then we could have discussion over the extent of that reconciliation. But Paul continues "not imputing their trespasses to them." If "world" means everybody, then we have universalism again.
So, it boils down to this: All men either means all without exception, or something else. World either means everybody, or something else.
There does not appear to be much wiggle room here.
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Oh SNAP!:laugh:
Nevermind - Webdog said what I was going to say
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Is this the teenage forum? Actually, I should ask is this the pre-teen forum, even teens at my church are more mature than this...
I was thinking the same thing. For people who claim to follow the Doctrines of GRACE, they seem to know little of it.
I think you are playing symantics here. According to Ephesians 2:8,9 The Gift is Salvation which is received through faith.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
It doesn't say all are made alive, it says, "it brings life to all men." It brings the gift or provision of life to all men, as referred to earlier in that verse.
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation.
False Dichotomy. It's not either limited atonement or universal salvation. There is the third option. It's called PROVISIONAL ATONEMENT, just like the atonement sacrifices of the OT. An atonement is provided for the whole group (PROVISIONAL), but the individuals are responsible to fulfill their part of covenant (circumcision, bringing choice goat/grain, etc). Another example is in the desert when the snake on the pole was PROVIDED, but the people had to look to the serpent for healing. The GIFT/ATONEMENT/HEALING was provided but there was a requirement. In the new covenant of grace that requirement is faith.
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