A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)

[webdog]

Airhead. The gift is eternal life, not the receiving thereof.

Airhead? From someone who has maintained and is in the same camp as the "faith is the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2" group? At least you are coming around to the truth found in the greek that pas refers back to the whole of "by grace you are saved through faith". Is there any question why you are called a troll, btw?

 

[DeaconPhil]

It doesn't say all are made alive, it says, "it brings life to all men." It brings the gift or provision of life to all men, as referred to earlier in that verse.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation.

False Dichotomy. It's not either limited atonement or universal salvation. There is the third option. It's called PROVISIONAL ATONEMENT, just like the atonement sacrifices of the OT. An atonement is provided for the whole group (PROVISIONAL), but the individuals are responsible to fulfill their part of covenant (circumcision, bringing choice goat/grain, etc). Another example is in the desert when the snake on the pole was PROVIDED, but the people had to look to the serpent for healing. The GIFT/ATONEMENT/HEALING was provided but there was a requirement. In the new covenant of grace that requirement is faith.

I am in that third option camp too. I guess that's why to an Arminian I am a Calvinist and to a Calvinist I'm an Arminianist. Maybe we should come up with our own name?

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm sure that there are various forms of Arminianism just as there are within the Calvinistic ranks. I believe that Christ's work appeased the wrath of God and the curse of sin for ALL MANKIND. The only reason someone doesn't go to heaven is because of their unbelief. The atonement is provisional. It is a gift provided to all to be accepted by faith. Understand?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

I believe that Christ's work appeased the wrath of God and the curse of sin for ALL MANKIND.

So no one is under the wrath of God then,according to your view.If Christ appeased,satisfied, the wrath of God -- no one will be condemned.Better empty the residents of Hell pronto per your theory.

 

[Rippon]

So no one is under the wrath of God then,according to your view.If Christ appeased,satisfied, the wrath of God [for all mankind --Rip]-- no one will be condemned.Better empty the residents of Hell pronto per your theory.

I added a needed phrase in case I was misunderstood. Christ certainly averted the wrath of the Father from the elect.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Airhead? From someone who has maintained and is in the same camp as the "faith is the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2" group? At least you are coming around to the truth found in the greek that pas refers back to the whole of "by grace you are saved through faith". Is there any question why you are called a troll, btw?

Notice that both you & I & Aaron have been called troll on this form at one time or another. Perhaps we should make that a subcategory in our profiles? LOL

Honestly its getting kinda week but ...

 

[menageriekeeper]

GL, JD, I didn't mean to just drop out of the conversation. Last time I looked, there was NO conversation. Of course that was two days ago before GL posted on page 12.

Today started out bad and continues to be not very good. I can't concentrate enough at the moment to respond coherently or for that matter comprehend what you are saying. Hopefully, I can do so later this evening. Otherwise I'll come back as soon as I can.

 

[Skandelon]

So no one is under the wrath of God then,according to your view.If Christ appeased,satisfied, the wrath of God -- no one will be condemned.Better empty the residents of Hell pronto per your theory.

They go to hell because of their unbelief, not for the curse of the law. How many times does this need to be explained before you properly represent it? I'm not asking you to agree, just understand.


Read THIS, maybe it will help...

 

[glfredrick]

GL, JD, I didn't mean to just drop out of the conversation. Last time I looked, there was NO conversation. Of course that was two days ago before GL posted on page 12.

Today started out bad and continues to be not very good. I can't concentrate enough at the moment to respond coherently or for that matter comprehend what you are saying. Hopefully, I can do so later this evening. Otherwise I'll come back as soon as I can.

No problem... Lifting you up! raying:

 

[glfredrick]

They go to hell because of their unbelief, not for the curse of the law. How many times does this need to be explained before you properly represent it? I'm not asking you to agree, just understand.


Read THIS, maybe it will help...

Really? Hell is populated because of people's unbelief?

That would make James (and by default, God) a liar, for didn't he pen that the demons also believe? Negates a lot of other Scripture as well.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith without deeds

Really? Hell is populated because of people's unbelief?

That would make James (and by default, God) a liar, for didn't he pen that the demons also believe? Negates a lot of other Scripture as well.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Doesn't that have to do with faith without deeds?

James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[Some early manuscripts dead ]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[Gen. 15:6 ] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Doesn't that have to do with faith without deeds?

James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[Some early manuscripts dead ]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[Gen. 15:6 ] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Hey thats pretty good, one of my favorites too....so is James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perserves under trial.... you know the rest.

 

[psalms109:31]

In the dark

Hey thats pretty good, one of my favorites too....so is James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perserves under trial.... you know the rest.

I love scripture, in the end it is what will preserve and He preserves us by the power of God and His word.


Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

 

[glfredrick]

Doesn't that have to do with faith without deeds?

James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[Some early manuscripts dead ]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[Gen. 15:6 ] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Yup... But it also says that the demons "believe" but tremble because "belief alone" is not all that it takes to gain eternity with Christ. :thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

Airhead? From someone who has maintained and is in the same camp as the "faith is the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2" group? At least you are coming around to the truth found in the greek that pas refers back to the whole of "by grace you are saved through faith". Is there any question why you are called a troll, btw?

Actually, it wasn't intended to be ad hominim anymore than your use of of the term "Strawman." I would call your argument the Airhead Argument.

Anyway, still pressed for time.

 

[webdog]

Actually, it wasn't intended to be ad hominim anymore than your use of of the term "Strawman." I would call your argument the Airhead Argument.

Anyway, still pressed for time.

You can surely come up with a much better excuse of justifying your immaturity than that, pressed for time or not. Does mommy need her laptop back?

 

[psalms109:31]

Yup... But it also says that the demons "believe" but tremble because "belief alone" is not all that it takes to gain eternity with Christ. :thumbs:

Amen

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[ Psalm 32:1,2]

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

It all starts with trust and that is what the prophets told us before His coming to prepare us. Jesus teaches us what to believe and how to believe. We can't do anything or have life without His word. We must listen and learn just as we are dead in sin and He will give us life eternal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually, it wasn't intended to be ad hominim anymore than your use of of the term "Strawman." I would call your argument the Airhead Argument.

Anyway, still pressed for time.

Wish I had that Rollin around laughin icon....this board needs to add some :thumbs: will have to do.

 

[Skandelon]

Really? Hell is populated because of people's unbelief?

That would make James (and by default, God) a liar, for didn't he pen that the demons also believe? Negates a lot of other Scripture as well.

We are speaking of saving faith here, I thought that was a given. As pointed out, faith that doesn't lead to works (obedience) is not really "faith."

The only difference between those in heaven and those in hell is their faith. (saving faith) I could list dozens of scripture which indicate that unbelief (lack of faith) is why men perish. Do I need to do so?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I think day's chaos is over. (I hope) I still have work to accomplish but, I didn't have to drive to Atlanta to pick my husband up so the day did get better! I appreciate the prayers.

All quotes are from posts numbers 114-115 by GLFrederick.

However, you are suggesting that unbelief is not forgiven, which means that you are in fact arguing for Christ's atonement for all people, but not all sins.

No. Christ's blood has the potential to cover all sins of all people, but not until it has been applied: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

As a sin, unbelief is not just a positional shift as you allude, it is a sin that needs to be forgiven

Unbelief is BOTH a positional shift and a sin that needs to be forgiven.

Follow-up question: How does (or can) one come to Christ if his or her sin(s) are not forgiven?

What does the Bible say? I quoted one verse above but this one is perhaps more clear:
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

That may be true, for I find you less of a universalist than you think you are.

I said I get called a universalist, not that I am one. I'm not Arminian either. But I get called one or the other or both so often that I feel led to live up to my reputation. (which means I'm being sarcastic every time I use either word to describe myself)

I cannot see where they transcend or trump God's ultimate sovereignty.

Since it only takes example to disprove a theory, how about this (even though I know you dislike proof texting):
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.

Was it God's will that Israel rebel? Or did God's will come about in spite of their rebellion?

I find God electing people constantly, often going against conventional human will or tradition.

Yes, there are many examples of God electing people to certain positions of greater usefulness to His purposes, but all were already believers (or at least sought to do God's will, even if mistaken in how to do that. ie Paul). I don't find an example of an nonbeliever elected/forced to do anything, but what they were already bent toward doing. ie Pharoh or Nebuchadnezer (sp).

I'm being interupted so more later.....