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A Question for Calvinist here
- Thread starter steaver
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You did worse. Here is what you said:
Contrary to what others think, I never came close to saying anything like that about Mohler. This sweeping generalization of yours has condemned every non-Cal on this board stating that we all have no understanding of salvation or for that fact any divine truth. Quite an arrogant slam, don't you think?
Obviously everyone doesn't agree. That doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong. That is the height of arrogance. If you search the forum, the archives, you will find the Calvinists in general have been far more mean-spirited than the non-Cals.
You talk about being clueless. Why are there such a wide variety of Calvinists in the Calvinist camp if Calvinism and the DOG are so clearly taught in Scripture? I dare say that there are no two of you that agree exactly the same on what Calvinism is. You are all different breeds and hybrids--a total mix and a very confused one.
I am not in damage control at all. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I can document what I believe, and have. If people fail to believe it is because of emotional and sentimental attachments, not because of objective study.
If he is one of the founders of a movement that has moved astray from the traditional gospel of salvation, then he should be held accountable should he not? I stand by that statement.
But you are not. I believe your understanding on those subjects are skewed. You accuse me of error and yet I believe you are the one in error. One major difference: you spend more time telling me that I am in error believing error and falsehoods even as you have on this very post.
Research it for yourself. Dr. M. was one of the founders of that very movement.
This is your MO. Attack me personally. Call me the heretic. Tell me that I refuse to listen to your divine revelation and therefore refuse correction. How arrogant! Have you considered that you are the one holding the wrong position??
Well, that's an admission coming from you.
You want to correct my theology and straighten me out so that I will become a Calvinist. Your a class act! You won't stop until I "convert." And the non-Cal position I hold you believe is heresy, just as you believe every non-Cal position is heresy, correct?
There is no reason for such a heretical statement.
The statement was out of context. I have read it also.
It is still out of context. Notice he speaks of this dispensation of grace. Are you a dispensationalist also, Icon? I can look up man of Spurgeon's sermons that you would classify as Arminian. He gives an invitation. Whosoever will may come. Come to the Savior now. Believe in him.
No, it is a direct inference from Luke's statement.
If Calvinism is the gospel, which apparently you all agree with, by your post. Then all non-Cals don't have the gospel and we are all unsaved. Correct? That is the only possible conclusion. But how many non-Cals have you noticed complaining ad infinitum about that?
That explains it! Thanks!:thumbsup:
steaver
It could be they no longer read your posts steaver...they do not take this silliness seriously:laugh:
I am not needing support as this is the teaching of scripture. All Christians understand Divine enablement so it is not even a question to respond to.:wavey:
Chapter 1: Of The Holy Scriptures
1. The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,
although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable;
yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation.
Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church;
and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and
against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
It could be they no longer read your posts steaver...they do not take this silliness seriously:laugh:
I am not needing support as this is the teaching of scripture. All Christians understand Divine enablement so it is not even a question to respond to.:wavey:
All elect persons do receive Divine revelation. God has put it in The bible...we read it, and study it.....give it a try steaver...it works wonders....start by looking at the verses offered to you and perhaps offer your fine thoughts on those verses/ I enjoy seeing people try and explain away the obvious.
All biblical cals agree with what I posted as it is biblical teaching.....It is not my "own"teaching ...observe steaver;
Chapter 1: Of The Holy Scriptures
1. The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,
although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable;
yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation.
Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church;
and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and
against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
DHK;
Poor DHK.....as has been pointed out to you several times...your M.O. is to project upon us those sins that you do,as if it will make what you do disappear:laugh: There was a movie called "wag the dog" which basically consisted of making up a false war on tv to take the eyes off of an ongoing scandal by a politician.
You offer another episode of Uncle DHK's Bb wag the dog:laugh:
You forget that at least 5 or 6 times I have asked you not to bear false witness, twist what I say, attempt to demonize me by taking a half quote of mine out of Context, and trying to make me say what I myself never said.
I have asked you to stop, AA. Rippon, J Borland, Con1, luke , and others have asked you to stop this dishonesty.....looks like you are bound by it.
You asked me questions...I gave an HONEST...answer. You cannot handle the truthfulness of the answer...so you ascribe words or motives to me that I did not say.
Some would call this dishonest behavior lying and bearing false witness.
I will start a new thread and see if others share my feelings on this:thumbsup:
I will show where you did this, although all the men and others here have seen how you do this all the time.
YOU KNOW MOST ARE NOT GOING TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID .....so in your mind you can get away with it.....but no...we are on to you, it has been exposed.
If you do not think so...take a poll ...get some feedback on your posting.
there was no sweeping generalization of anyone...My posts are presented as...if the shoe fits wear it. This is where your evil twisting comes into play.
You cannot find me saying this anywhere , except in your foul imagination.
I never said it did...you project this because you cannot answer as usual in fact you do this with all the cals...all the time.
The attack comes from the non cal 95% of the time.
Now when the cals respond it looks like a massacre because the Cals offer scripture based defense and response, then the accusing non cal disappears..
.
Each person is unique...there are differences in any group, different levels of understanding and maturity. Everyone knows and understands that except you as you look for any loophole to take attention away from your pathetic posting and accusations as a cover up.
I agree with most of the cals here most of the time AA, rippon, con1 , reformed, and many others. We express ourselves differently, but are on the same page in general. We are not afraid to have differences among ourselves either...that is fine and spiritually healthy.
You can say what you want. You can also be wrong once again also:thumbsup:
Sure you are...BIG TIME...the titanic was in better shape after it hit the iceberg,lol
If he is one of the founders of a movement that has moved astray from the traditional gospel of salvation, then he should be held accountable should he not? I stand by that statement.
haha...you asked me the question...I answered you honestly...You put into my mind that movie scene where jack Nicholson says...you want truth? YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!....
If you do not want an honest answer,,,do not ask the question DHK.
.
Why Lie? this again is your projection...you do this very thing. I never did any of those things, until you attack and then when we defend ,you accuse each of us of making you the VICTIM....LOL
READ YOUR OWN POSTS... an issue is being discussed, you do not like the discussion...then you accuse us of spiritualizing like oregin...lol..you do this all the time.....we all know it..we read your posts.
Another lie. are you capable of truth.....I never mentioned "MY DIVINE REVELATION"...I offered you sermons by pastors who can read from the greek text.....the revelation given by God, that would correct your error.
How many times do you expect someone to go into the archives, search out the threads to show you are lying. In this thread..I clearly said I offered two sermons by two men.....two pastors.....
My position is stated when I quoted 2 pet3 and commented..
This is the product of your evil imagination.....I never said this...this is a prime example of what you do...you want to dictate to me what you think and make believe I said it?????? pathetic!
I have them in book form and on disc ..in fact they are with me in my computer on a disc...I know Spurgeon, I know what he preached and believed... just another smoke screen by you...
Poor DHK.....as has been pointed out to you several times...your M.O. is to project upon us those sins that you do,as if it will make what you do disappear:laugh: There was a movie called "wag the dog" which basically consisted of making up a false war on tv to take the eyes off of an ongoing scandal by a politician.
You offer another episode of Uncle DHK's Bb wag the dog:laugh:
You forget that at least 5 or 6 times I have asked you not to bear false witness, twist what I say, attempt to demonize me by taking a half quote of mine out of Context, and trying to make me say what I myself never said.
I have asked you to stop, AA. Rippon, J Borland, Con1, luke , and others have asked you to stop this dishonesty.....looks like you are bound by it.
You asked me questions...I gave an HONEST...answer. You cannot handle the truthfulness of the answer...so you ascribe words or motives to me that I did not say.
Some would call this dishonest behavior lying and bearing false witness.
I will start a new thread and see if others share my feelings on this:thumbsup:
Cute....you post .....here is what you said, then do not give the full quote giving a different impression.
I will show where you did this, although all the men and others here have seen how you do this all the time.
YOU KNOW MOST ARE NOT GOING TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID .....so in your mind you can get away with it.....but no...we are on to you, it has been exposed.
If you do not think so...take a poll ...get some feedback on your posting.
You did..it was pointed out by several so then you attacked them also twisting what they said...
there was no sweeping generalization of anyone...My posts are presented as...if the shoe fits wear it. This is where your evil twisting comes into play.
what is arrogant is your evil twisting and attacks on Dr,Mohler,and the good brothers here.
You cannot find me saying this anywhere , except in your foul imagination.
I never said it did...you project this because you cannot answer as usual in fact you do this with all the cals...all the time.
The attack comes from the non cal 95% of the time.
Now when the cals respond it looks like a massacre because the Cals offer scripture based defense and response, then the accusing non cal disappears..
.
Each person is unique...there are differences in any group, different levels of understanding and maturity. Everyone knows and understands that except you as you look for any loophole to take attention away from your pathetic posting and accusations as a cover up.
I agree with most of the cals here most of the time AA, rippon, con1 , reformed, and many others. We express ourselves differently, but are on the same page in general. We are not afraid to have differences among ourselves either...that is fine and spiritually healthy.
You can say what you want. You can also be wrong once again also:thumbsup:
Sure you are...BIG TIME...the titanic was in better shape after it hit the iceberg,lol
If he is one of the founders of a movement that has moved astray from the traditional gospel of salvation, then he should be held accountable should he not? I stand by that statement.
haha...you asked me the question...I answered you honestly...You put into my mind that movie scene where jack Nicholson says...you want truth? YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!....
If you do not want an honest answer,,,do not ask the question DHK.
.
Why Lie? this again is your projection...you do this very thing. I never did any of those things, until you attack and then when we defend ,you accuse each of us of making you the VICTIM....LOL
READ YOUR OWN POSTS... an issue is being discussed, you do not like the discussion...then you accuse us of spiritualizing like oregin...lol..you do this all the time.....we all know it..we read your posts.
Another lie. are you capable of truth.....I never mentioned "MY DIVINE REVELATION"...I offered you sermons by pastors who can read from the greek text.....the revelation given by God, that would correct your error.
How many times do you expect someone to go into the archives, search out the threads to show you are lying. In this thread..I clearly said I offered two sermons by two men.....two pastors.....
My position is stated when I quoted 2 pet3 and commented..
This is the product of your evil imagination.....I never said this...this is a prime example of what you do...you want to dictate to me what you think and make believe I said it?????? pathetic!
another example
glad you enjoy Spurgeon..he used the confession of faith and catechism I use.. I own the tabernacle and new park street pulpit ..set...
I have them in book form and on disc ..in fact they are with me in my computer on a disc...I know Spurgeon, I know what he preached and believed... just another smoke screen by you...
Your deflection, personal attack, and demeaning behavior does not let you off the hook.
First, we are not speaking of other threads, other forums, the past, etc. We are speaking of what is said in this thread. Don't derail the thread. Keep on topic.
Here is what you said in this thread:
And you said it in the context of men and of non-Cals. The conclusion: I, as well as other non-Cals "believe in the strength of our own flesh...do not have a God-given understanding or saving understanding of divine truth."
IOW, we are not saved. That is what you have said.
Face the facts.
I don't post "cute posts." Cut to the chase. You say "all the time." That of course if false." Again, you want to derail this thread. This thread is about one topic. You want to go to many different threads and even forums.
You are too vague. You never quoted what I said. Be specific. If you don't know what I actually said, then why refer to it. That is bearing false witness.
So quote me; quote them. You have nothing to stand on, only false allegations. If you don't have direct quotes you have hearsay. That is nothing but sin.
"someone believes something in the strength of their own flesh does it mean it was a God-given understanding or saving understanding of divine truth. "
That is a sweeping generalization.
And then you apply it to 2Pet.3:15,16, which you also apply to all non-Cals in a sweeping generalization. You are good at that aren't you?
I have posted above what you said. It is foul.
I have posted concerning Dr. Mohler what others said. For the most part they were direct quotes and my summary of them. So how can I go wrong, when a multitude of sources say the same thing. If their emotions are hurt they (as well as yours) they need to grow up. BTW, I documented what I said. Blame the authors of the sites where I got my information.
You often say that you are right, and imply that others are wrong. What do you think the debate between you and Steaver is about? I am not projecting anything, but telling you a truth that you will not accept about yourself. It is you that needs correction in this area.
Prove it.
I don't need loopholes. I have the Word of God. I also have the power of observation and observe how Calvinists contradict each other on this board. Some are to the extreme believing and blaming God, making God the author of sin. Others take a more moderate position saying that God simply allows sin in this world. That is simply one example of many. But you certainly aren't unified. You don't even agree with Calvin. Do you know that Calvin didn't believe in Unconditional Election. Look up his commentary on John 3:16.
Note your words: "most of the Cals...most of the time." I don't call that unity.
My beliefs are based on the Word of God, not Calvin, not Augustine.
This is your opinion in the form of a personal attack again.
Yes he should be held accountable. Do you agree?
This is your answer when you can't defend your beliefs. It is a personal attack once again. You are good at that. It is also your answer when it is pointed out that you personally attack others--you attack again and again. Ad hominems are against the rues Icon.
READ YOUR OWN POSTS... an issue is being discussed, you do not like the discussion...then you accuse us of spiritualizing like oregin...lol..you do this all the time.....we all know it..we read your posts.[/quote]
Tell me where I have lied. Quote me directly.
BTW, Origen was the founder of the allegorical method of interpreting the Bible, as Augustine was the first to teach Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement. So you are not following the Bible, you are following the doctrines of men.
You did. Steaver called you on it. That is what his debate with you is all about. Don't try to retract it now.
You want to become another Rippon; look for posts older than he joined--more than ten years old. Go ahead. I can do the same thing. But I can do the same thing within this thread--every misrepresentation that you have made of any person is in effect a lie. Again, the limitation of this discussion is this thread. Don't derail it.
Yes, it was an unjust accusation. A lie.
How many times have you called Calvinism truth and non-Calvinist views false teaching or error. You have directly called my beliefs false even heresy. I can back that up. What implication should I take from that?
Another example of what?
Good, then you can find many of his sermons where he invites sinners to come to Jesus and put THEIR faith in Him.
Talk about the height of hypocrisy!
Here is the OP topic.....
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.
...but you try to twist it into whether or not God gives His children Divine enablement in general, when the OP is specifically directed to Divine enablement to believe Calvinism.
Do you really think everyone here doesn't see your manipulations?? And as you can see...not one person from your camp supporting you in this thread on the subject of the OP...no, not one.
Here is your quote and subject at hand.....
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.
Still waiting to hear from all the biblical Cals on this board agreeing with you......then again......maybe there are no biblical Cals here except you!
This back biting and rock throwing has really gotta stop....from both camps. Good Lord, you are all believers and so that makes you bretheren! Folks on both sides are just going to avoid this mudslinging till you characters knock it off.
Consider that its the Christmas season....this should be a time of joy, with a good measure of peace....oh and love. COME ON!!!!!
Consider that its the Christmas season....this should be a time of joy, with a good measure of peace....oh and love. COME ON!!!!!
Many here have criticised me for not stomping on DHK. However, I was waiting for some one to:
- point out his sources as illigitimate and why they were illigit.
- point out if ligit that the sources were somehow lacking and how. where and why they were lacking.
- point out if ligit and not lacking the error(s) how DHK misinerperted what he referenced.
DHK said:
Thousand Hills
Active Member
DHK made up his own conclusions regarding Al Mohler. In no article did it claim that Dr.A.M was outside the bounds of the historic Christian faith or anything like that. Even if someone would state that garbage it would be just that...garbage.
No, DHK makes things up regularly. His links that he has provided for me in the past usually have nothing to do with any point he so desperately wants to make.
And you Squire/Robert (you should retire one of those handles) aid and abet DHK at every turn it seems. It's as though DHK is your alter ego.
Then say how the links do not prove the accusation. The rest of us want to know. Just saying. they are garbage, won't suffice. Many of us (for various and sundry good reasons) are ignorant of the movement. So, we lack the ability to make such a judgement.
As for the personas, check the stats, the Squire has been here since the founding of the Board and has over 7,000 posts. Robt has less than 120 posts since joining in 2010. That averages out to 29 posts a year over four years or an average of 2 and change a month.
As for the personas, check the stats, the Squire has been here since the founding of the Board and has over 7,000 posts. Robt has less than 120 posts since joining in 2010. That averages out to 29 posts a year over four years or an average of 2 and change a month.
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it waiting to see how you answer the verse s that we were put to you and as of yet you:thumbs: avoided them completely
Yes, what you have posted about Dr. A.M is false and sinful. And you have no direct quotes to back up your evil contentions that he is "outside of historic Christian orthodoxy." (12/15/2014)
You possess no direct quotes of anyone other than yourself saying he "stands outside of orthodox belief." (12/14/2014)
You are fibbing big time.
This is where you enter into sin. Your summations are not what the authors have said. You are entirely on your own. Own up to your smears.
I have pointed out above how you have gone wrong.
No direct quotes of your disgraceful charges have been provided.
I have. You have not provided any documentation which supports your evil accusations.
Indeed. And that is exactly what you have done regarding a whole group --New Calvinists calling them "the camp of heresies." (12/14/2014)
You owe major retractions for your vile charges.
You have misrepresented John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and Spurgeon though you regard them highly.
You have lied about Calvin a multitude of times as well as Augustine, Westcott and Hort. There have been so many its hard to keep track of your revisionist history.
You have shamed yourself by saying that Piper and Mohler among others "have influenced others for evil rather than good." (12/15/2014)
You really do have a shameful history on the BB. You are libellous. You engage in character assassination. That is conduct unbecoming of a moderator of a Christian forum.
Not sure anyone here says they loath Calvinist, I see a loathing of Calvinism however. I noticed you jumped in to give Icon a God blessing, but you didn't bother to agree with his scripture proofing displayed in the OP.
Here it is so you don't have to go back and look it up.....
Brother Icon declares that one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.
....he bases this belief on Matt 13. You can see his argument here....... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...57#post2173157
My question is, is this what all Calvinist believe? Please answer pertaining directly to the OP, in other words, please do not tweek or rewrite the OP and then answer something different.
Brother Icon says his position is within the camp of Calvinism.
So, do you agree with Icon that those who believe in Calvinism do so because of Divine Enablement? And do you believe this is proven according to Matt 13 as he gave for the proof text?
He also declared that everyone who is not taught TULIP by the Holy Spirit, it is because they are not His sheep, and he gave John 10 as a proof text. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2171467&postcount=28
Still waiting for the camp to rally behind you on your OP comments and proof texting..........:sleep:
Maybe they are out hunting right now.........
Amen brother! :thumbsup:
Lets all stick with the OP please! Brother Icon is taking a beating by steaver holding his comments up to the light! He declares the camp is on his side on this issue, so where are ye all at??????? Brother Icon is on the ropes and you all are silent as a church mouse!! Speak up!
Now if it might possibly be that the camp here does not agree with his comments in the OP, then don't you think you should do him a service and call for his repentance of said remarks? Is it right to keep silence and let your brother continue in such erroneous remarks? Think about it......
I have backed this up and more than once. If you fail to read the evidence then you become deliberately ignorant of the issue. You close your eyes and wish it wasn't so. Too bad.
Now think about it this way.
Many of the articles have stated that New Calvinism has gone outside of historic Christianity. True or False. It is true.
Mohler, along with Driscoll, Dever, Piper, and a couple of others were the founding members of this movement.
If they are the founding members of a movement that is now outside the realm of historic Christianity, where does that put them? Just saying what logic dictates, and what other sites have already stated before I have posted. If you weren't so loyal to this man you would have read this already. It is not new.
As to the rest of your post it is basically personal attacks, ad hominem, etc. It needs no reply.
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