A question for calvinists

[psalms109:31]

Noah

Every one God created would of been destroyed if it wasn't for Noah not being created that way but he himself finding favor in the eyes of the in the Lord.

All it takes is having faith in God and He will do a great work.

We know that the amount saved will be like the sands of the seashore, only if we all had faith in His word.

If we only believed God that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and let God sort out who is and not His.

Telling men God is a liar is not helping anyone but those who want to believe a lie.

 

[pinoybaptist]

<snip>..........Telling men God is a liar ...........

Dear me, has anyone here on this thread done this ?

 

[webdog]

Why does Scripture say that the prayer of the righteous availeth much...if prayer is only changing our will to that of God's? There is a mystery behind prayer we will not understand this side of Heaven.

 

[TCGreek]

Why does Scripture say that the prayer of the righteous availeth much...if prayer is only changing our will to that of God's? There is a mystery behind prayer we will not understand this side of Heaven.

Webdog, you have made me a believer of the mystery element to prayer that is not subject to human reasoning.

I'm with you on this one. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

It's a cool thing to know that the prayer of His children really, truly mean something to the God of the universe! What I deem meaningless requests and dialogue means something to my Father God! How awesome! I can't wait to find out exactly how this all works some day :thumbs:

 

[Rubato 1]

Webdog, you have made me a believer of the mystery element to prayer that is not subject to human reasoning.

I'm with you on this one. :thumbs:

I think I agree.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lie

Dear me, has anyone here on this thread done this ?

When a[edited] lie hinders a child from knowing the true love of God for this world it is a tragedy.

 

[pinoybaptist]

When a[edited] lie hinders a child from knowing the true love of God for this world it is a tragedy.

The discussion is on prayer, brother.
Cryptic accusations do not contribute to a meaningful dialogue and discussions.
If you are referring to fellow children of God on this board, I think it will be more Christ like to come out and name names.
Paul did so.
John the Baptist certainly did so.

 

[psalms109:31]

Judge

I do not come on this site to judge anyone, but to let the world know that God does love them. I do not change it for my own doctrine. When God said He loved the world He does and when He said He wants all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth He does, but He will not go against His own word that they must trust in Jesus and believe in Him and whosoever in this world can do so.

After reading I was lead to say what I did.

Forgive me but I will do what I'm lead to do.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I do not come on this site to judge anyone, but to let the world know that God does love them. I do not change it for my own doctrine. When God said He loved the world He does and when He said He wants all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth He does, but He will not go against His own word that they must trust in Jesus and believe in Him and whosoever in this world can do so.

After reading I was lead to say what I did.

Forgive me but I will do what I'm lead to do.

And my question remains:

who are the people or who is the individual you refer to and accuse as making God out to be a liar ? who changes God's word to fit their doctrine ?

you or somebody edited your post which apparently (to me) named someone.

know this for a certainty, brrotherrr, you come out swinging at no one in particular, I will swing back.

now, the subject of this thread is prayer and what Calvinists think of it.

You come in swinging a bat straight from left field.

Be coherent and intelligible.

Make your case.

I do not want to derail this thread, but I will not let your insinuations go by unchallenged.

 

[psalms109:31]

edited

I edited my post because of a mis-typing. Just incase someone read it before editing I let them know.

I don't acuse anyone of calling God a liar, but if anyone tries to say God doesn't love the word or doesn't want all men to be saved is. The word is my witness. I don't have to change or limit the word all or world, but God means simply that. No one can understand the mind of God until it goes against thier doctrine. Then they have all the answers.

Our prayer is very meaningful, but if we don't even have faith in His word what does it truely mean?

 

[DHK]

Why does Scripture say that the prayer of the righteous availeth much...if prayer is only changing our will to that of God's? There is a mystery behind prayer we will not understand this side of Heaven.

Prayer is like worship.
God doesn't need our worship, and neither does he need our prayers. We need to pray; we need to worship. It is for our benefit, not God's. God has need of nothing. If he did, He wouldn't be God. He is all-sufficient.
God blesses those who do his will. We have OT examples in Job, Daniel, Noah: men of righteousness, prayer, Godliness, whose testimonies were:
"was a perfect and upright man" according to God himself.
"Daniel 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord--a pracher of righteousness for 120 years.

God didn't need Noah's preaching. He could have raised up someone else. Our prayers are for our own good; our own spiritual health. That doesn't negate the fact that God still answers prayer, even though He knows in his omniscience what those prayers are.

 

[The Archangel]

Rubato,

But what exactly do you mean by 'penal-substitutionary atonement'?

Penal-substitutionary atonement refers to Christ's death on the cross being a propitiation. This is to say Christ took the just wrath of God that we deserved on Himself. We deserved God's wrath because we are sinners by nature and because we also sin.

Because He took God's wrath in our place, Christ served as our substitute--He bore God's wrath for us and took the punishment we deserved.

I would think the OT Day of Atonement the perfect picture of what I described. The whole camp did not come and name every sin they committed and how many times with their hands on the ram's head. The ram was sacrificed for sin. All of it. All at once.

This is not a theory, it is an explanation that makes sense, and (to me) is easily inferred from every passage concerning sacrifices I've read. Let us look at Isa 53 for a 'test.' From verse 6, 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all' we see that God took our way (not nessicaruly individual sins) and our iniquity (all of man's iniquity together, not a specific quatnity of sins). This is just as easy for me to point out as it would be to say that this verse says that God took the 480,000 times we would lie, and the 1,984,000 times we would be proud, etc, etc.

I see what you are saying, but your "theory" does not follow many Old Testament priestly norms.

First, the High Priest functioned as a representative of the people. Now, there were two aspects of the Day of Atonement (when referring to the sacrifice). There was the Sacrificial Lamb and there was the Scapegoat. These were two separate animals that fulfilled different functions.

The Sacrificial lamb would be killed and its blood poured on the Ark of the Covenant (under the angels' wings, where the very presence of God resided). The sacrifice and the blood signify that the lamb died as a substitution for the people--their divinely-imposed, justly-deserved sentence of death for sin was borne by the Sacrificial Lamb.

Second, the High Priest would bring the scapegoat before the people and would lay his hands on the lamb's head signifying the transfer of the sins of the people. The scapegoat would then be led outside the camp and released into the wilderness, signifying the removal of the sins from the people.

This is why it is not an incidental detail when the gospel writers say they took Jesus outside the city and crucified Him. This absolutely had to be the case because He fulfilled the role of both the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat.

Furthermore, there are many examples in the Old Testament law when individual sacrifices had to be offered from time to time, not just on the Day of Atonement. For example, a purification offering had to be offered when the worshiper came to the sanctuary. This was to make sure any sins that might have been committed were covered before coming to worship at the sanctuary. Also, there was a burnt offering which was offered for the removal of sin.

So, according to the Old Testament, it was absolutely imperative that the people dealt with individual sins, not just "sin" in general.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

Prayer is like worship.
God doesn't need our worship, and neither does he need our prayers. We need to pray; we need to worship. It is for our benefit, not God's. God has need of nothing. If he did, He wouldn't be God. He is all-sufficient.
God blesses those who do his will. We have OT examples in Job, Daniel, Noah: men of righteousness, prayer, Godliness, whose testimonies were:
"was a perfect and upright man" according to God himself.
"Daniel 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord--a pracher of righteousness for 120 years.

God didn't need Noah's preaching. He could have raised up someone else. Our prayers are for our own good; our own spiritual health. That doesn't negate the fact that God still answers prayer, even though He knows in his omniscience what those prayers are.

There is nothing I don't agree with in your post, but the fact remains prayer does work and we don't know how this side of Heaven. True God doesn't "need" prayer, but He didn't "need" to send His Son to the cross either, but He did. God does respond to our prayer.

 

[Allan]

There is nothing I don't agree with in your post, but the fact remains prayer does work and we don't know how this side of Heaven. True God doesn't "need" prayer, but He didn't "need" to send His Son to the cross either, but He did. God does respond to our prayer.

Amen, brother!

 

[pinoybaptist]

I edited my post because of a mis-typing. Just incase someone read it before editing I let them know.

I don't acuse anyone of calling God a liar, but if anyone tries to say God doesn't love the word or doesn't want all men to be saved is. The word is my witness. I don't have to change or limit the word all or world, but God means simply that. No one can understand the mind of God until it goes against thier doctrine. Then they have all the answers.

Our prayer is very meaningful, but if we don't even have faith in His word what does it truely mean?

You are a true master of subtility, sir.
You remind me of a Biblical character.
Chew on that.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well I always thought it was teamwork; not the saving, but the coming to the truth

That would make you a synergism believer. I am not, but rather monergistic.

My Column...Mountain Monergism

I believe salvation is the work of God, not man. This is why I can pray to God to change the heart of a sinner and know He only has the power to do so. Synergism limits Gods power for in this scheme, God will not over rule the will of man and therefore remains under the control of mans will when it comes to salvation.

Prayer goes hand in hand with a Calvinist slant.

God said 'If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself,'

This is talking about Christ death on the Cross. What does it mean..."I will draw all men? Being that Christ has indeed died on the cross, do we now see ALL men standing in line to be saved? Do we see men.."ALL men" longing to become a believer? Do we see the churches packed and full with want to be believers.....wanting to call Christ Lord?
Or.....do we see for the most part men that say they do not need God?

The way you answer this, will become your view of God and mankind.


but he also said 'I hold a place for those who search,'
Indeed...

And who seeks? The world as a whole?

and 'they that seek me shall find me.'
Once again..I agree.

Who seeks? Does Romans not say No man seeks after God? (Romans 3)

God will make his truth available, but man must also seek him.

I disagree 100% God has made the truth available already. The truth is Christ and man has the Law of God on his hearts. Yet...they do not come to Christ.....or do they?

Like Noah, who 'found grace in the eyes of the Lord,'

Yes indeed..

This is monergism 101. It is God that "FOUND" Noah.

God was looking to show grace, true;

indeed.

but Noah was also looking for grace

.
Not really.

Please notice the text...

5(C) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every(D) intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And(E) the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it(F) grieved him to his heart. 7So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah(G) found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is the 2nd statement found in Gen 6. Notice it ends with..."But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD".

Now starting with verse 9 the story of Noah is unpacked.

9These are the generations of Noah.(H) Noah was a righteous man,(I) blameless in his generation. Noah(J) walked with God. 10And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God(K) saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt,(L) for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. 13And God said to Noah,.............AND ON...

Now when did God show grace and why? Was it because of what Noah did, or did Noah do, because of Gods grace?

In other words, if we were to ask this today....

Does God save people because they are good people?

 

[Jarthur001]

Why does Scripture say that the prayer of the righteous availeth much...if prayer is only changing our will to that of God's? There is a mystery behind prayer we will not understand this side of Heaven.

Once again...because it changes MAN...not God.

Re-look at what has been called "the Lords prayer".

1 "Our Father, which art in Heaven"
2 "Hallowed be thy Name"
3 "Thy kingdom come"
4 "Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven"
5 "Give us this day our daily bread"
6 "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
7 "And lead us not into temptation"
8 "But deliver us from evil"
9 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen"

THY WILL BE DONE.....not mans will. I see the power of God in all nine statements.

Open theists believes God changes His mind, because God does not know all things. I felt sure you were not open theists

BTW....The great mystery of the Bible is the Church...not prayer.

 

[TCGreek]

It's a cool thing to know that the prayer of His children really, truly mean something to the God of the universe! What I deem meaningless requests and dialogue means something to my Father God! How awesome! I can't wait to find out exactly how this all works some day :thumbs:

Our prayers do matter. I don't believe we need to minimize our prayers.

 

[webdog]

Once again...because it changes MAN...not God.

Re-look at what has been called "the Lords prayer".

1 "Our Father, which art in Heaven"
2 "Hallowed be thy Name"
3 "Thy kingdom come"
4 "Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven"
5 "Give us this day our daily bread"
6 "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
7 "And lead us not into temptation"
8 "But deliver us from evil"
9 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen"

THY WILL BE DONE.....not mans will. I see the power of God in all nine statements.

Open theists believes God changes His mind, because God does not know all things. I felt sure you were not open theists

BTW....The great mystery of the Bible is the Church...not prayer.

"The prayer of the righteous availeth much". How exactly does this "change man"? Are you going to deny the many passages dealing with God stating He would do something, and then not doing it based on what man asked Him? I know it throws a monkey wrench into determinism
Scripture states God has repented (changed His mind)...and Scripture does not teach open theism. You are wrong on both counts.