A question for my fellow Calvinists

[JonC]

I see you got your broad brush out again, Jon. I know it is your opinion but it implicates each and every Calvinist. At least that is the only logical way to read your statement.

P.S. And have you ever thought that is why some Calvinists may have a problem with you? You are implicating an entire group. That is not bound to go over well.

No broadbrushing at all. You are pulling a comment apart from the content I have already provided.

I am a Calvinist. I shy away from the term because it asdociates me with "calvinists" who are anything but Christian in their conduct.

A loud minority often hijacks the whole in how it is perceived by those outside the group.

 

[Reformed]

No broadbrushing at all. You are pulling a comment apart from the content I have already provided.

I am a Calvinist. I shy away from the term because it asdociates me with "calvinists" who are anything but Christian in their conduct.

A loud minority often hijacks the whole in how it is perceived by those outside the group.

Ok, Jon. It is just the way your post came off to me. It seems as though you are implicating the entire group. I guess I am a little sensitive to that. If you meant certain Calvinists, then fine. I can leave it at that.

 

[JonC]

Ok, Jon. It is just the way your post came off to me. It seems as though you are implicating the entire group. I guess I am a little sensitive to that. If you meant certain Calvinists, then fine. I can leave it at that.

I don't even think it a large group within the whole.

Look at how many Calvinists we have here on the BB. Yet the trouble makers are only a handful.

 

[Reformed]

Look at how many Calvinists we have here on the BB. Yet the trouble makers are only a handful.

Do you think those troubles are personal in nature [for whatever reason]. i.e. two members who just cannot mesh or is it more than that? Before you formulate your answer, please consider this. I have in mind a BB member that I just cannot see eye-to-eye with. I have tried to have peace with this person and (to be gracious) I think they have reciprocated. Unfortunately, the divide between us is just too wide to mend. Things got to the point where we could not respond to one another as brothers should. I was offended at what I thought was mischaracterizations and personal attacks. I think this person felt similarly. We no longer engage with each other on the board and that is for the best. I do not doubt this person is a fellow believer. I share this because a bad personal relationship can have legs if we allow it to. There is another reason that I shared this story. Take the handful of Calvinists on the BB that you think are troublemakers out of the equation. There are quite a few Calvinists on the board. How does that affect your opinion of the remaining Calvinists? Would you feel comfortable putting your arm around their shoulder and calling them brother?

 

[Alan Gross]

To my knowledge, I have never read one word written by 'Calvin', much less a sentence. Was I supposed to?

My understanding of the children of God who perished by religious persecution, is that I number myself among those groups who may have met with persecution, by Calvin and other 'Reformers'.

It appears that those who predated 'Reformers', were severly persecuted by 'Reformers', at times.

And so, that may resume right here, at this moment in History, on these pages.

I was never exposed to any need for Bible Doctrines to be 'reformed'.

And, as a rule, the 'reforms' are adrift from various Doctrines I see in The Bible, practically, doctrinally, and organizationally, but that can only be expected, from having come out of a system of teaching that is purely Satanic and then, in turn, seeking to bring 'refromation to that'.

I have heard the name, "Calvin" , mentioned once every year or two, but there is no devotion to him that I was ever exposed to.

There is an influence, apparently, from his writings in areas of Christianity and, specifically, a recrimination toward, or a devote adherence to 'Total Depravity', which brings an association to any "Bible Believer", with Calvin, at times, simply because he must have taught that Jesus "has the Words of Life".

O.K. God told Adam he would die.
And he did, but he was still walking and talking and hiding and being ashamed.
So, the idea that Adam was dead in tresspasses and sins has been around since then.

I have been meaning to check whether Calvin uses any form of the word, "millienial", and if so, half of his Bible understanding is sunk. I can't imagine why any Christian ever has used any word like that, and many others. But that one just mostly causes people to skip half the Bible, or try to 'teach' something in a way that is just saying, "they don't know".

Oh well. Some chick was hating me, saying I was a Calvinists and I just said, "thou saith". Whatever.

I know he didn't have a very high regard for 'my kind', all things being even.

That ought not be.

 

[Iconoclast]

There seems to be a habit among some Calvinists saying that they are not Calvinists. They claim to be Mongergists soteriologically but distance themselves from the Calvinist label. In my conversations (on and offline), the two most popular reasons for rejecting the Calvinist moniker are 1. The scorn they receive over the term from Christians who are not Calvinists. 2. Disagreement with John Calvin on his other beliefs. Charles Spurgeon had no problem describing himself as a Calvinist because even in the 19th-century the term had become ubiquitous in describing Reformed soteriology only. Today, in the 21st-century, the term means the same thing. Calvinist does not mean embracing Presbyterian ecclesiology, paedobaptism, or even covenant theology (although many Calvinistic Baptists do hold to the latter).

So, I have a few questions for my Calvinist brethren who do not like the term.

1. What is your objection to the term?

2. Do you have an issue with Baptists who embrace the term?

3. What are your thoughts of an alternative descriptor such as Monergist?

Thank you and Soli Deo Gloria!

Any label will do.
Calvinist
Particular Baptist
Monergist
Baptist
Sovereign Grace Baptist.
Biblicist
All can work.

 

[Rockson]

1) My own personal objection is, some, like a few that shall remain nameless, keep making the observation that I am stating things differently than other "mainline" traditional "Calvinists", instead of going along with something John Calvin said. My answer is..."So..what?"

Well I suppose I'm one of the nameless ones, although well...I do have a name good friend. But here's the so what.....I and other Non-Calvinists have been told many times from Calvinists that if one would like to know their beliefs one should go to Calvinists and find them out and not go to Calvinists critics.

Well....we do that....in good faith we study up on Calvin himself and current leaders and ask you and others to give account for their teachings and it's thought of as a strange mystery as to why we should bring up what they say? So who exactly are we to learn Calvinism from? Each one of you individually have your own right version? So what is your message? And are you any way accountable to it whatever it might be?

 

[Iconoclast]

What I suggested, @Iconoclast , is that such a heresy has "infiltrated Christianity". It's right there in post # 20 (if you are having difficulty I refer you to that post...i.e., the one you quoted). There is no need to make assumptions, I think that the statement is plain enough as stated. It is not up to me to explain what you do not understand (sadly, I'm sure there is a reason for that as well).

Insofar as the BaptistBoard goes, we are open to all professing Christians who are members of accepted denominations. We are primarily a Baptist board but accept other denominations in non-Baptist sections of the board.

If you are confused on this point, please reference the "terms and rules" at the bottom of the page. If a person falls into the category we accept their profession without questioning their Christianity, at least not on the public forum (although I have my doubts about some based on their character). "Heresy" in terms of the BaptistBoard would be, by definition, a violation of membership on the forum.

If you are asking me if there are some who will hear the words "I never knew you" on "that day", I am afraid so. It is heartbreaking, but there are some I believe have misplaced their faith - possibly without even realizing it. It is both sad and terrifying.

I looked at the post and it was very vague.
I have not heard of anyone thinking this is the case at all.

 

[SovereignGrace]

My objection to the term (within Baptist circles ... i.e., and affirmation of T.U.L.I.P.) is that it links me with militant Calvinism.

I am SBC. The SBC has seen it's fair share of "cage staged" Calvinists. This has encouraged others to be anti-Calvinistic.

I hate to say it, but of Baptistic leanings Calvinism has earned it's reputation for spreading hate and discord above any other position. The few very vocal "hypers" have given the group at large a bad name.

Personally, I do not want to be associated with anyone who holds Calvinism as their religion. That is the issue with me and the term. I'd prefer to explain my position rather than be lumped in with the ungodly minority who hold my position.

For someone who holds to Calvinism, disparaging it comes rather easy.

 

[Iconoclast]

I see you got your broad brush out again, Jon. I know it is your opinion but it implicates each and every Calvinist. At least that is the only logical way to read your statement.

P.S. And have you ever thought that is why some Calvinists may have a problem with you? You are implicating an entire group. That is not bound to go over well.

Good point Reformed
I do not recall being in any Church or bible conference among Calvinistic brothers where the discussion turned dark and ominous and everyone viewed each other with suspicion, as wolves in sheep's clothing, or as infiltrating Christianity? What an odd thought

 

[Iconoclast]

For someone who holds to Calvinism, disparaging it comes rather easy.

I have not heard this in any Calvinistic circles I have ever travelled in

 

[Benjamin]

Any label will do.
Calvinist
Particular Baptist
Monergist
Baptist
Sovereign Grace Baptist.
Biblicist
All can work.

Determinist?

Predestinarian?

Gomarist?

Necessitarian?

Augustinian/Manichaean Sect?

 

[Reformed]

it is like that.

Brother, would you say that among Baptists, a Calvinist is someone who holds to TULIP? That is the opinion I hold to. In post #37 I listed some BB members who were/are Calvinists in their soteriology but who disagree with me on other Reformed doctrines such as Covenant Theology, Supralapsarianism, and the Regulative Principle. Just because we disagree on those issues does not mean they are not Calvinists. Do you agree with that?

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, would you say that among Baptists, a Calvinist is someone who holds to TULIP? That is the opinion I hold to. In post #37 I listed some BB members who were/are Calvinists in their soteriology but who disagree with me on other Reformed doctrines such as Covenant Theology, Supralapsarianism, and the Regulative Principle. Just because we disagree on those issues does not mean they are not Calvinists. Do you agree with that?

Yes....that is how the term has been used in my lifetime.
Some would hold out for a more nuanced description, but in the normal course of things that is how it is used and understood.
If you attempt to avoid these labels those who oppose the teaching use it to make accusations and carnal reasons to try and discredit the doctrine itself.
The labels save time. We are all still learning so growth and different levels of knowledge and gifting are to be expected

 

[1689Dave]

It depends on the time and place whether or not I claim Calvinism as my theological position. The term Calvinism polarizes the situation in a negative way with many. And it involves clearing Calvin of the "murder charges". And "God sending pleading repentant sinners to hell" charges before any mention of Christ, already rejected if from a Calvinistic position can occur. So I've experienced more gains in the forums by claiming Christian only. And more unwillingness to consider what I say where I'm a Calvinist.

 

[JonC]

Do you think those troubles are personal in nature [for whatever reason]. i.e. two members who just cannot mesh or is it more than that? Before you formulate your answer, please consider this. I have in mind a BB member that I just cannot see eye-to-eye with. I have tried to have peace with this person and (to be gracious) I think they have reciprocated. Unfortunately, the divide between us is just too wide to mend. Things got to the point where we could not respond to one another as brothers should. I was offended at what I thought was mischaracterizations and personal attacks. I think this person felt similarly. We no longer engage with each other on the board and that is for the best. I do not doubt this person is a fellow believer. I share this because a bad personal relationship can have legs if we allow it to. There is another reason that I shared this story. Take the handful of Calvinists on the BB that you think are troublemakers out of the equation. There are quite a few Calvinists on the board. How does that affect your opinion of the remaining Calvinists? Would you feel comfortable putting your arm around their shoulder and calling them brother?

No. If it were only me I would wonder. But others (and other Calvinists) have noticed a trend among few people.

Another reason I do not use the term is it is almost meaningless. People understand Calvinism by stereotyping and characterization.

Also, we have 5 pt, 4 ot, 3 pt ect. The points work together.

 

[JonC]

For someone who holds to Calvinism, disparaging it comes rather easy.

It is not disparaging. It is trying to distance oneself from a problematic element in hopes that element will change.

I believe we should be the first to point out such behavior. This is what James white did. It is what Sproul did. It is what Piper did. It is what Spurgeon did. Were they wrong for disparaging Calvinists?

 

[JonC]

I looked at the post and it was very vague.
I have not heard of anyone thinking this is the case at all.

I am not surprised.

 

[JonC]

I have not heard this in any Calvinistic circles I have ever travelled in

This is a good point. It depends on the circles of influence within which we are involved.

I have always appreciated C.H. Spurgeon. While he cannot speak to our contemporary environment, he did speak quite a few times about these problematic Calvinists. He accused them of "puffery" in dictrine.

R.C. Sproul is not my favorite (I am a Baotist and it is difficult to see how a scholar could miss tge meaning of baptism). But he also addressed these "calvinists".

I listen to James White fairly often. White addressed these ungodly "calvinists" fairly strongly.

J.I. Packer addressed these folks. As did one of my favorites, John Piper. D.A. Carson addressed the issue in an interview. Mark Dever addressed tgese oeople as "cage staged" and urged a biblical perspective.

Article 16 of the Canons of Dort even addresses this to an extent.

Perhaps you need to broaden your awarness.

 

[Reynolds]

Forgive this brief segway but when I mentioned the Rev. Albert N. Martin, this video clip came to mind. The production is overly dramatic but it highlights the ministry of a man who, while a "high Calvinist" as @Reynolds would say, was committed to preaching the whole truth contained in scripture. He has many wonderful sermons on YouTube and Sermon Audio.

High Calvinist is not a term unique to my vocabulary.. A high Calvinist is NOT a hyper Calvinist.