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A question of headship and leadership

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12strings

Active Member
I can see by the responses that either the "spiritual men" of this forum don't want to offend the women, or the women are joyfully filled with pride at usurping the authority of the home and men of the church. I wonder if they even share the popcorn with the men.

...Popcorn? I'm sorry, I'm not following the popcorn arguement. My wife shares the popcorn.

What is the matter with declaring what the scriptures teach on this matter?

Nothing, but you have yet to provide any scripture for your positions.

If a woman has a problem, question, or statement; she is to express it to her husband in the home. A woman is ALWAYS under the authority of a man (why the woman is “given” in marriage and a man is not). The unmarried woman should go to the authority over her living to seek and express.

Again, what about the passages teaching a woman to pray or prophesy with her head covered? I Cor. 11:11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman [j]independent of man, nor is man [k]independent of woman. 12 For as the woman [l]originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things [m]originate from God. 13 Judge [n]for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

I know the head covering brings up other issues, which we may or may not get to, but it seems women were allowed to speak, if their heads were covered. We cannot simply ignore these passages and only focus on those that seem to prohibit all speaking.

In the church, and by extension the public, the woman is to keep silent. By speaking through a single voice, the home then presents a united front.

I will agree that neither husband nor wife should voice criticisms of leadership in public ways unless ALL private avenues of correction have been exhausted. Also, neither should spout off criticism of church leadership without consulting their spouse, so that they can present a united front if the need fro public rebuke arises.


If this is not scripturally correct, then show by what scriptural authority the women of the modern church present themselves as soloists (for women are allowed to sing in groups) and or as teachers of men, rather than shamefaced, not wearing any jewelry, and silent.

I refer you again the women who prophesied and prayed in the N.T.

I find it curious that you have somehow managed to find scriptural warrant for women to sing in groups, but not one single woman. Where in scripture is this?
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
I’m hesitant to respond here because I believe the OP to be a troll and only looking to get a rise out of people. But – c’est la vie…

The original poster keeps using the words “shamefacedness” and “silent” as if the two word are mutually inclusive in their meaning and as if this is all the Bible has to say about women.

The two words aren’t inclusive. They have nothing to do with each other.

The word shamefacedness in the Greek is the word αἰδώς (ī-dō's ) and only occurs twice in the King James Bible.

1 Timothy 2:9 "In like manner also the women are to adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness (αἰδώς) and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

…and…

Hebrews 12:28 “Wherefore, we receiving a kingdom, which cannot be moved, let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence (αἰδώς) and godly fear.”

Shamefacedness means to act honorably, respectfully, reverently, and such in terms of others – be they other people or God, Himself.

Women are not commanded to NOT wear braided hair or gold or pearls nor expensive clothes, but are admonished not to “adorn” themselves (κοσμέω – “kosmeo”) themselves this way. That is, according to the definition of kosmeo – women are admonished not to “gain honor” or “make way or prepare” for a “well-ordered life” in this manner. In other words, women are admonished not to make their reputation, lifestyle, or self-respect all about their looks. I believe that this admonishment is in the Bible because many women believe that their ONLY way of presenting themselves to gain the attention of men and the approval of others IS to place all of their value in their looks. Men – let’s be honest - are attracted to women who look a certain way. The Bible tells women, in multiple places, that this is not the way to live. But the Bible never says NOT to wear makeup or jewelry.

So, according to the Bible, shamefacedness is all about behaving reverently and respectfully to others with - according to the definition - either with "shame, honor, or self-respect". And all people - men and women - are admonished to behave this way in Hebrews 12:28.

A woman can most definitely open her mouth to speak, sing, teach others (under the direction and authority of the pastor) and still be behaving shamefacedly.
 
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Amy.G

New Member
Need more popcorn.

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Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Can we all agree from the Bible , that the prespective of GOD on this topic is that while men and women were BOTH made in image of God, equals, they each do have distinctive/different roles to fulfill?

That in regards to the local church set up...

men have been ordained by God as being the "chief/top" head authority for spiriual leaderships positions?

Due to what paul called the principle of "headship" in the Bible..

men would have ultimate authority as regarding teaching/preaching etc the Bible, but MUST do all of that in the Biblical model of being a servant unto the Lord, in right attitude and mindset, as they are just shephards to flock that God has given over them on "loan!"
Not just in church, but in society as well, marriage being the basic unit thereof.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Not just in church, but in society as well, marriage being the basic unit thereof.

What about women who aren't married? Women who's husbands have walked out on them? Who is our authority? I'm asking an honest question. At church, my authority is the pastor. But I'm honestly quite lost as to where I belong anymore. :tear:
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

This Scripture quote is a direct command in scripture that is violated in the modern church.

Can anyone show me where this verse no longer should apply?
 

Amy.G

New Member
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

This Scripture quote is a direct command in scripture that is violated in the modern church.

Can anyone show me where this verse no longer should apply?

What if there is no husband at home???
 

12strings

Active Member
I think there is a danger in taking the NT teaching on Marital headship and Church leadership roles and necessarily applying it to every cultural and societal venue. You end up with a teaching that basically says, "Every woman is to be subject to every man at all times." Which I don't believe is scriptural.

I don't think my pastor's wife is subject to me, nor my wife to him.

I once worked at a restaurant where the General manager was a woman. What should have been my response to that? Find another Job? Challenger her authority? Or simply do what she said to do and run my cash register, sweep the floors, etc?
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

This Scripture quote is a direct command in scripture that is violated in the modern church.

Can anyone show me where this verse no longer should apply?

I myself believe there was a problem with women asking question at that time while the word of God was being preached. The Husband wasn't able to hear some of the message to explain later. I do believe Paul said this because some women where being disruptive during the message of God. Paul was simple telling them to leave those question to be asked at a later time not during the message. I am sorry that there was a time this was happening to me and I had to show my wife this passage.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

This Scripture quote is a direct command in scripture that is violated in the modern church.

Can anyone show me where this verse no longer should apply?

Yet the very same author said that a woman may prophesy and pray.

Additionally, how do you go to stretch this to outside the church?
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Other than singing during the congregational singing, I was silent in church today.

So I'm in full compliance!!!

Oh wait. Shoot. I spoke to my husband in response to him telling me to put a new song in the computer. Darn, I guess I need to go to confession. Wait - can I confess? Can I talk? Should I stop my fingers from typing now???????


:tonofbricks:
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Annsni your examples answered.

I'll take a stab at the bear:

1 Corinthians 11:5 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Acts 18:24-26 "24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. "

Romans 16:1-2 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. "

Prophecy is non-gender specific. There are and were both genders as prophets. But, that doesn't disavow Paul's command.

It is important to remember that Priscilla was the WIFE of Aquila. What they did was exactly fitting.

Phebe has a gift that was to be shared, and the "commend" is as a church letter sharing with another church the new member has a gift that has been and can be used to benefit the members.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A brave acknowledgement

I was not stating what was going on but what the bible teaches. Very few churches to day follow the bible as it is givem. They have a form if what it says but they tend to do what they want to please the people.

This is obvious from the responses to the thread.

It is all about the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, and the quenching of the Holy Spirit.
 

Winman

Active Member
Next time the church wants to have a dinner, and the pastor asks the women what dish they could bring, all the women should cross their arms and say nothing.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Prophecy is non-gender specific. There are and were both genders as prophets. But, that doesn't disavow Paul's command.

It is important to remember that Priscilla was the WIFE of Aquila. What they did was exactly fitting.

Phebe has a gift that was to be shared, and the "commend" is as a church letter sharing with another church the new member has a gift that has been and can be used to benefit the members.


But you stated that women should be silent in the church. How do we prophesy in the church if we are to be silent?
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But you stated that women should be silent in the church. How do we prophesy in the church if we are to be silent?

The gift is not conditioned upon the command being voided. The command is that women be silent in the church.

A woman who has the gift of prophecy (fortune teller) in our modern churches may be welcome, but I doubt that they have a place in the true church. For God's word is sealed. Nothing is to be added not taken away (see Revelations for this injunction).

Does that mean that prophecy is dead? All prophets must meet the two criteria of every thing they say agreeing with the revelation of God's word, and that the prophecy be true.

Because all God's revelation is given in the scriptures and it is complete, the only "prophets" of the modern age are false.

On a side, the promptings of the Holy Spirit within the heart that give a premonition of a situation or event, does not qualify that person as a prophet in the biblical sense.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The gift is not conditioned upon the command being voided. The command is that women be silent in the church.

A woman who has the gift of prophecy (fortune teller) in our modern churches may be welcome, but I doubt that they have a place in the true church. For God's word is sealed. Nothing is to be added not taken away (see Revelations for this injunction).

Does that mean that prophecy is dead? All prophets must meet the two criteria of every thing they say agreeing with the revelation of God's word, and that the prophecy be true.

Because all God's revelation is given in the scriptures and it is complete, the only "prophets" of the modern age are false.

On a side, the promptings of the Holy Spirit within the heart that give a premonition of a situation or event, does not qualify that person as a prophet in the biblical sense.

Prophesy is not just story telling.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Depends

Next time the church wants to have a dinner, and the pastor asks the women what dish they could bring, all the women should cross their arms and say nothing.

If the women agree with the preacher - they might smile.

If the women disagree with the preacher - they might smile and he will never be told about the extra ingredient that was added just for him.

:smilewinkgrin:
 
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