A simple fact

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

Also, the passage in Ephesians 2 gives commentary itself on what it means to be Spiritually dead...vs. 2-3.

And it says NOTHING about being able to respond to the Gospel. nothing.

We were led by the flesh, the world, and Satan. That's what it means to be spiritually dead.

Jon....this is exactly what people are trying to post to you....you do not understand the verses...this shallow idea misses the passage totally.

Here is what you are missing:
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; { a corpse, a spiritual corpse}

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,

[conformed to the world system]

according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

[under satans dominion]

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,

fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;


and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Bound by the flesh, carnal lust, by naturebound in sin and under God's wrath

yet you see this as no obstacle for an unregenerate man to be fully able to respond...without the Spirit quickening him as it says here in eph2:1

 

[Iconoclast]

You can always just say you disapprove.

I like the little emoticons...but I like them uncensored.....crickets chirping,beating a dead horse, tumbleweeds,

 

[Iconoclast]

And secondly

If Calvinism produces all of these "mature" disciples as I've seen on this board...Then count me out. If your theology does not produce brotherly love and compassion I'd say it's time to turn it in and exchange it for something else. Period.

Jesus says "They will know that you're my disciples by your love one towards another." Yea, I understand it's difficult to read in attitude during online discussions, but many posts straight up lack any sort of love. And it's from both sides of the discussion. But the post I'm quoting is a sample of just a jab without any justifiable proof. Fables? Come on bro.

When you go on the attack....then try to claim it is brotherly love....you do not see that as disingenuous ? You said something to glen about gnostic ideas....snapped at Martin when he was trying to help you on the other thread....accuse cals of having a wrong view of the word of God...when you have not engaged direct scriptural challenges....you did offer a bit, but very anemic...
Biblical love deals with truth,and letting your yes, be yes

I use the word fables with you because you are just making it up as you go...no scripture to support your idea that regeneration is not necessary

 

[atpollard]

I believe God is so powerful that His Word can even be heard by a spiritually dead man and He is so merciful and loving that He gives them the opportunity to respond to Him in faith WITHOUT regenerating him.

Calvinists believe God's Word is impotent in that a person must be regenerated BEFORE they can respond to the Gospel.

Whose view demonstrates the Power of God more accurately concerning God's Word?

Hint...Hebrews 4:12

No bias here...Calvinism shows God's Word to be impotent.

Hebrews 4:12 NASB

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

Hebrews 4 is addressed to the Saints and is about the Saints. Why should it be applied to the as yet unsaved?
What scripture says about the unsaved is:

2 Corinthians 4:3-6 NASB

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.​

v.3 The Gospel is VEILED to those who are perishing (that would be the unsaved and non-elect) ... unless you have a different definition of "perishing". Even so, whoever these 'perishing' are, they cannot receive the Gospel because of the veil that prevents it ... imagery of the curtain that separates men from the Holy of Holies so they cannot approach the Glory of God resting on the Ark of the Covenant.

v.4 Could not be clearer that Satan has blinded the mind of UNBELIEVERS so they cannot see the Gospel.

v.6 Men may have preached the Gospel, but the unsaved were blind to it until Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS (the hearts of the saved, the heart of the elect) ... it does not say Jesus shone in ALL HEARTS; it says Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS. "Our" is Paul and the rest of the Saints to whom he is writing.

Calvinists believe God's Word is impotent in that a person must be regenerated BEFORE they can respond to the Gospel.

The issue is that "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Jesus is the power of the Word of God, the "Light who shines out of darkness" and illuminates the heart of those being saved.

You advocate an ability of the word to save without the Light of Jesus (the Word) choosing to act first. Scripture disagrees with you.

 

[JonShaff]

JonShaff,


Jon....this is exactly what people are trying to post to you....you do not understand the verses...this shallow idea misses the passage totally.

Here is what you are missing:
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; { a corpse, a spiritual corpse}

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,

[conformed to the world system]

according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

[under satans dominion]

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,

fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;


and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Bound by the flesh, carnal lust, by naturebound in sin and under God's wrath

yet you see this as no obstacle for an unregenerate man to be fully able to respond...without the Spirit quickening him as it says here in eph2:1

And it's simple...you ADD, "and Oh yea, they cannot respond." when Chapter 1 Clearly says it's possible.

Eph. 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[JonShaff]

When you go on the attack....then try to claim it is brotherly love....you do not see that as disingenuous ? You said something to glen about gnostic ideas....snapped at Martin when he was trying to help you on the other thread....accuse cals of having a wrong view of the word of God...when you have not engaged direct scriptural challenges....you did offer a bit, but very anemic...
Biblical love deals with truth,and letting your yes, be yes

I use the word fables with you because you are just making it up as you go...no scripture to support your idea that regeneration is not necessary

Glen said his son was regenerated without ever hearing or reading the Gospel. That is unbiblical. But y'all give him the free pass because he's your calvinism buddy--that is disingenuous.

Martin questioned my salvation and the "spirit that was in me." Yes, I was upset with that. But it seems like we squashed it.

I have dealt with Scripture, and I get the same response, "You don't understand what this really means." All because I do not believe your point of view. Your theology is clearly dictating what you think the Scriptures say instead of letting the Scriptures dictate your theology. It's the same old song and dance every time someone engages with y'all. Someone posts confessional statements or copy and pastes out of a systematic theology book. Really, it's quite exhausting and not very helpful.

 

[JonShaff]

Hebrews 4:12 NASB

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

Hebrews 4 is addressed to the Saints and is about the Saints. Why should it be applied to the as yet unsaved?
What scripture says about the unsaved is:

2 Corinthians 4:3-6 NASB

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.​

v.3 The Gospel is VEILED to those who are perishing (that would be the unsaved and non-elect) ... unless you have a different definition of "perishing". Even so, whoever these 'perishing' are, they cannot receive the Gospel because of the veil that prevents it ... imagery of the curtain that separates men from the Holy of Holies so they cannot approach the Glory of God resting on the Ark of the Covenant.

v.4 Could not be clearer that Satan has blinded the mind of UNBELIEVERS so they cannot see the Gospel.

v.6 Men may have preached the Gospel, but the unsaved were blind to it until Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS (the hearts of the saved, the heart of the elect) ... it does not say Jesus shone in ALL HEARTS; it says Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS. "Our" is Paul and the rest of the Saints to whom he is writing.



The issue is that "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Jesus is the power of the Word of God, the "Light who shines out of darkness" and illuminates the heart of those being saved.

You advocate an ability of the word to save without the Light of Jesus (the Word) choosing to act first. Scripture disagrees with you.

The Thing is, and please see what you are saying, If satan can veil unbelievers for the entirety of their life, you are saying satan is more powerful than God. Remember, You were an unbeliever once. And Then the Light of the Gospel shined into your heart THROUGH someone Who was filled with that light. And they Preached to you Jesus, and not themselves.

6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Paul says we were the children of wrath too

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

You take one verse that can be understood from several positions and then make that your proof text. That is not how we ought to understood God's redeeming work.

 

[JonShaff]

The funny icon is the only one that can be used. the politically correct censors removed the icons that show dislike or disapproval...
your breakdowns were not solid.you basically look to explain away the passages rather than see the clear implications.
If someone has blocked you, it is for a reason as i have seen him have all manner of discussions without having to block the people.

I gave you the historical context of the passage. How is that explaining away?

 

[atpollard]

The Thing is, and please see what you are saying, If satan can veil unbelievers for the entirety of their life, you are saying satan is more powerful than God. Remember, You were an unbeliever once. And Then the Light of the Gospel shined into your heart THROUGH someone Who was filled with that light. And they Preached to you Jesus, and not themselves.

6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Paul says we were the children of wrath too

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

You take one verse that can be understood from several positions and then make that your proof text. That is not how we ought to understood God's redeeming work.

We WERE the children of wrath, too. I agree. But it says in 2 Corinthians 4:6 that Jesus shone in OUR hearts ... not that Jesus shone in ALL hearts. All started out blind, all were preached to, SOME (US) had the light shone in our hearts. That is what 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 says.

Here is an entire paragraph, to avoid the accusation of just looking at just one verse:

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

This is all about salvation. Where in this praise of all God has done to save us, is any choice on our part mentioned?

v.4 But God ...
v.5 when WE were dead ... MADE us alive (by GRACE)
v.6 raised US up ... in Christ Jesus
v.7 [So that God could show] ... His grace and kindness towards us.
v.8 By GRACE [we] have been saved, through FAITH ... "that" (saved, grace and faith) not of [ourselves] ... gift of God
v.9 so that no one may boast.
v.10 We are GOD's workmanship (God did the work)

 

[atpollard]

The Thing is, and please see what you are saying, If satan can veil unbelievers for the entirety of their life, you are saying satan is more powerful than God.

Not I.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." so you will need to take your complaints up with the Apostle Paul.

 

[Iconoclast]

And it's simple...you ADD, "and Oh yea, they cannot respond." when Chapter 1 Clearly says it's possible.

Eph. 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Well Jon.... you post as if Calvinists don't believe it and love the verse
it says yeah we trust ....so what ...every believer ,believes. What you fail to realize is verse 3 to 14 is one sentence in the original language so if you take it as a whole it doesn't quite give the slant the way you try to portray it.
it actually keeps it in context and tells us exactly the cause of our Salvation is God alone. That we get that from scripture we we didn't put that in there we didn't make it up this long verse is in scripture and we understand it the way it's meant to be understood and the way God has given it to us. Going into Ephesians 2 you have the depraved condition of man until verse four that says but God who is rich in Mercy so it's again all it's not man it's not man's free will, or man's wisdom, or man's anything.
Another thing, everyone tells you yeah you don't understand this or understand that and get cut and paste a confessional statement because they're trying to show you that these statements are well thought out and have been around for hundreds of years and they actually summarize the scripture very well. And what they offer you that statement you at no time take apart any one of those confessional or catechism statements and show why it's wrong you you and everyone else on here is but unable to do that so until you do they'll still be posted

 

[JonShaff]

Not I.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." so you will need to take your complaints up with the Apostle Paul.

But the Whole "flow" of Paul's Statement is--That we Preach Jesus So people can hear and Believe...

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord...

The point of Paul's statement is not to bring about calvinistic theology, but to say the Message he preaches is that of Christ--and if people choose not to believe, it's not the Message's Fault.

 

[Reformed]

Well Jon.... you post as if Calvinists don't believe it and love the verse
it says yeah we trust ....so what ...every believer ,believes. What you fail to realize is verse 3 to 14 is one sentence in the original language so if you take it as a whole it doesn't quite give the slant the way you try to portray it.
it actually keeps it in context and tells us exactly the cause of our Salvation is God alone. That we get that from scripture we we didn't put that in there we didn't make it up this long verse is in scripture and we understand it the way it's meant to be understood and the way God has given it to us. Going into Ephesians 2 you have the depraved condition of man until verse four that says but God who is rich in Mercy so it's again all it's not man it's not man's free will, or man's wisdom, or man's anything.
Another thing, everyone tells you yeah you don't understand this or understand that and get cut and paste a confessional statement because they're trying to show you that these statements are well thought out and have been around for hundreds of years and they actually summarize the scripture very well. And what they offer you that statement you at no time take apart any one of those confessional or catechism statements and show why it's wrong you you and everyone else on here is but unable to do that so until you do they'll still be posted

Brother,

It is part of the "gotcha" game some of these brainwashed amateur theologians play. Instead of taking the time to study and learn they let their fingers do the talking. Instead of the filter of common sense they just spew out their nonsense. And I used the word "some" for a reason, because not every Synergist is so blatant about it.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[JonShaff]

every believer ,believes. What you fail to realize is verse 3 to 14 is one sentence in the original language so if you take it as a whole it doesn't quite give the slant the way you try to portray it.

a baseless accusation. I am aware of this.

it actually keeps it in context and tells us exactly the cause of our Salvation is God alone.

Of course salvation is of God alone.

as for the rest of your statements...I really don't even know what to say.

 

[JonShaff]

Brother,

It is part of the "gotcha" game some of these brainwashed amateur theologians play. Instead of taking the time to study and learn they let their fingers do the talking. Instead of the filter of common sense they just spew out their nonsense. And I used the word "some" for a reason, because not every Synergist is so blatant about it.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Yes, "brainwashed amateur theologians"...great remark...

 

[atpollard]

But the Whole "flow" of Paul's Statement is--That we Preach Jesus So people can hear and Believe...

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord...

The point of Paul's statement is not to bring about calvinistic theology, but to say the Message he preaches is that of Christ--and if people choose not to believe, it's not the Message's Fault.

It seems to be saying a LOT more than some simply choose not to believe. It echoes the words of Christ in Luke 8:11-12 (“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.")

There is a deep, fundamental difference between someone simply "choosing not to believe" and "the god of this world [blinding] the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel" or "the devil [taking] away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved".

The whole flow of Paul in 2 Corinthians 4 is that WE (the saved) preach Jesus so people can hear and SOME will be veiled from the Gospel and Jesus will shine His light in the heart of SOME. Just like the one seed, but different soils yielding different results (some had no chance for the seed to grow) ... here we have the same story. I am not reading Calvinism into these verses ... reading these verses, I was unable to reconcile scripture to what I wanted salvation to be like (A God who tries to save all and people who refuse to be saved). I had to reject either Scripture or Synergism. I chose to accept what the scripture actually says.

Did Jesus say that the Devil would snatch the word away from some so they could not be saved?
Did Paul say that those perishing were blinded to the Gospel?
Do we believe what scripture says?

 

[JonShaff]

It seems to be saying a LOT more than some simply choose not to believe. It echoes the words of Christ in Luke 8:11-12 (“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.")

There is a deep, fundamental difference between someone simply "choosing not to believe" and "the god of this world [blinding] the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel" or "the devil [taking] away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved".

Hello!

Except you fail to bring in 2 Corinthians 3

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.

Paul may be using this idea of unbelief in Chapter 4 as a way to say they (possibly unbelieving Jews--since Paul may be defending his ministry against them) are in unbelief because they want the law of Moses to save them--therefore they are in unbelief, So Satan continues to blind them, which causes them to stay in unbelief.

Once again--if we do not keep the book context in mind, we will make up doctrines that are not intended from the author.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Corinthians 3
16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

Notice the veil isn't removed first, but faith and repentance happens first.

So it would be my conclusion that Paul is saying that Satan only aids in unbelief BECAUSE an unbelieving Jew desires to be saved by the Works of the Law--a willful rejection of the Gospel of Christ.

Guys, that is why it is so important to keep these passages in their proper Context! 2 Corinthians 3 is dealing with the Law and the Old Covenant. This "Veil" is a play on words by Paul to say, "If a Jew wants to believe the Law will save them then Satan will continue to keep them in unbelief. If they turn towards Christ, the veil will be removed and they will see the Glory Of God in the Face of Jesus Christ, Just like we do."

This isn't a passage that declares some sort of calvinist teaching...it's a rebuke to the unbelieving Jews that want to be saved by the law of Moses.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Glen said his son was regenerated without ever hearing or reading the Gospel. That is unbiblical. But y'all give him the free pass because he's your calvinism buddy--that is disingenuous.

Martin questioned my salvation and the "spirit that was in me." Yes, I was upset with that. But it seems like we squashed it.

I have dealt with Scripture, and I get the same response, "You don't understand what this really means." All because I do not believe your point of view. Your theology is clearly dictating what you think the Scriptures say instead of letting the Scriptures dictate your theology. It's the same old song and dance every time someone engages with y'all. Someone posts confessional statements or copy and pastes out of a systematic theology book. Really, it's quite exhausting and not very helpful.

I read that. I didn’t take it that he had never read a bible. But if his son never heard the gospel, never read a bible, never knew anything about the Christ, then that is hyper-Calvinism. And that is wrong.

 

[JonShaff]

@SovereignGrace

Ok Mitchell I'm game!... Then explain something to me... I have a Deaf son who has a strong belief in the Lord... I didn't teach him... He was born profoundly deaf.... Hearing aides don't help him... He is now 37 years old... Tell me where he heard the word of the Lord?... Tell me how he heard it?... So I guess he and all like him who have come before and those who will come after are lost and bound for hell?... Is that your doctrine?... Mine is Sovereign Grace... My Son is saved just like one thief on the cross... Show me in scripture where one thief on the cross ever heard the gospel and believed?... Yet Jesus told one of them Today you will be with me in paradise... What did he do to merit it?... Brother Glen

I then said, "Surely he READ the truth about Christ...And Glen said , "Nope"....

Nope... I've heard that argument too... My question is this if hearing the gospel is instrumental to Salvation and as important as that doctrine is why is their no mention of it at the cross?... We are talking of scripture not speculation... My Son didn't need to hear the gospel or read it, his belief came through the heart... Brother Glen

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Emphasis mine