A Tale of Two Faiths

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Must you read election and predestination into every passage?

These great teachings are in the bible quite often. We do not need to read these truths into any passage. When they appear the people of God rejoice to see these truths. To deny they are in both these places as you are doing is troubling.

Did God take blind-folds and blind these men that they could not see any altars of Baal?
Did he tie their feet that they could not go to any of their altars?
Did he take away their comprehension that they could not think of these false gods?

With godly men the Spirit of God allows them to delight in His law so they have no desire to sin against Him.

119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is of their own free will that they chose not to serve Baal

,

certainly not.....the will is bound by sin

and chose to serve Jehovah instead--as did Elijah. No one compelled or forced them.

the text does not spell out the exact reason.

Consider once again the historical setting.

The historical narrative is fine.There are many lessons there. But when the Holy Spirit has Paul speak about this ...it is the electing grace of God in preserving a remnant that is highlighted....not jezebel, baal, or anything else:thumbsup:

ATTENTION...here comes the twist into error:thumbsup:

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

In the above verse--the KJV--the word "me" is not in the Greek.
Look at a couple of other translations:
(MKJV) Yet I have left seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth which has not kissed him.

(YLT) and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.'

He is simply saying: "I have left 7,000 in Israel..." They were men, who of their own free will, did not bow their knee to Baal. God is reassuring Elijah that he is not the only one standing there and serving God. There are others doing the same work.

So...you suggest that God is giving a little pep talk to Elijah? He is just simply saying that He noticed others who are serving Him....but God himself is not the cause....it is the mans free will that is the cause.

Really..... That is what was simply being said?

So lets see if that was "simply" explained to Paul by the Spirit in Romans 11....let's see......we are looking for "simply of their own free will"

opps...no...we have this language used instead;
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men


T.Warren;

We see Elijah didn't possess the information to understand what was really going on, and so what he had surmised was based upon his suppositions. Thus his conclusions were in error. God answered him and told him not only did the Lord reserve a remnant as His people, but that He had seven thousand of them. Seven times one thousand who had not bowed to worship Satan. Note also that it is God who reserved these men unto Himself. He made sure He had set-aside for Himself "a people," no matter what Satan and his minions had done to the nation. God wasn't interested in saving the whole nation, nor did Elijah understand the truth of all this. But there was no possibility that these worshipers at the image of Baal could have thwarted God's plan of salvation for His people Israel, which He had reserved. For God would never abrogate His promise to Israel. Not to a whole physical nation, but to have a chosen people. So had He cast off His people Israel? Quite obviously not, the promise of Israel always being before Him was not made to the majority, but to the seven thousand who were 'truly' Israel. The people He reserved or predetermined would be brought unto Himself.

and again;

We cannot miss the point here, which is that Israel was in apostasy, and God had no intention of saving the whole nation, and yet God remains faithful to the believing remnant. Because they, and not the whole nation, were the true Israel of God. And this unmistakable, undeniable analogy by God that there was still a remnant Israel even though Elijah didn't understand this, is equated by Paul, under inspiration of God, to Israel's then present condition. And though it may be small, the part that is the election is the Israel of the promise. The number seven thousand 'signifies' completeness or totality. In these verses God is using Elijah as an example of what is taking place with Israel in Paul's day. Just as Elijah was looking for a great salvation and was disappointed with what He saw in his day as the destruction of Israel, so Paul is saying "likewise," the destruction and salvation of Israel isn't as the Jews thought, but as God provides.

The overview of verse four is that it is showing that Elijah did not understand that God's plan called for a "remnant" chosen and reserved unto God by Grace. They were not called by Elijah's understanding, but by God's. They were not called in great numbers, but by God's Sovereign right to choose how many, and whomever He wanted. As indeed God boldly signifies in the following verses:

and once again;

•"Even so then at this present time also there is a Remnant according to the election of grace."
[houto oun] or 'in this way, accordingly' at the present time also there is a remnant. By Paul (under inspiration of God) saying, "So then also at this time," he is applying the example of Elijah to Israel in his own time. That is not man's words, it is the divinely inspired Word of God equating that remnant being saved in Elijah's day, with Israel's then present situation. That's God saying that Israel 'in part' (the remnant) are reserved unto Him an elect or Chosen people, in the same way as in Elijah's day.


This part, this remnant, is not the whole nation of Israel, nor was that the promise, and that is why His promises are not annulled. Only those of Israel who are conformed to the image of Christ are those 'counted' the Israel of promise (Romans 9:8, Galatians 4:28). And it's important to keep in mind that Paul is saying these things to address the objection of "God casting off His people." i.e., He is again saying no, for Israel of the promise is a remnant people just as it was in Elijah's day. This is all in total agreement with what we read in chapter nine that, 'they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.' In other words, not all the nation Israel were the true Israel to whom the promises pertained, only this election was. When Paul says, 'even so at this present time,' he is addressing the fulfillment of the promise to Israel of an election of Grace.

pt2 to follow

 

[The Archangel]

Must you read election and predestination into every passage?
Did God take blind-folds and blind these men that they could not see any altars of Baal?
Did he tie their feet that they could not go to any of their altars?
Did he take away their comprehension that they could not think of these false gods?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is of their own free will that they chose not to serve Baal, and chose to serve Jehovah instead--as did Elijah. No one compelled or forced them.

It's not what I see, it's what the text conveys. And, in this text, God's election is conveyed, in a manner of speaking.

We aren't told what God did to preserve the 7,000, but we are told--unequivocally--that He did preserve them...

...

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

In the above verse--the KJV--the word "me" is not in the Greek.
Look at a couple of other translations:
(MKJV) Yet I have left seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth which has not kissed him.

(YLT) and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.'

He is simply saying: "I have left 7,000 in Israel..." They were men, who of their own free will, did not bow their knee to Baal. God is reassuring Elijah that he is not the only one standing there and serving God. There are others doing the same work.
There also will be Jehu and Elisha to add to the leadership.

First, you need to realize that this text is not written in Greek, it's written in Hebrew. Just as with Greek, Hebrew has nuance that is often lost in translation.

We've seen this before with you, however. When discussing John 3:3, you claimed that Jesus is commanding Nicodemus to go get himself born-again. Of course, the Greek will not allow for that. The verb "born-again" is passive, meaning that the subject (Nicodemus) cannot be the one doing the acting and, by definition, must be acted upon. So, in the John 3 passage, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him, not done by him.

In the case of 1 Kings 19:18, we see a similar thing. The word "leave" is the Hebrew שאר (sha'ar). Now, if this verb was in the Qal stem, you might have a point (ignoring that God is Himself the subject of the verb, so He is the one doing the leaving, but I digress...). However, in the text of 1 Kings 19:18, the verb sha'ar is in the Hifil stem which gives it a reflexive quality.

So, actually, the verb itself is conveying the meaning that God (the subject of this first-person singular verb) has caused these 7,000 to remain.

That is what the text says. That is the meaning it conveys. The reason these 7,000 haven't worshiped Baal is because God has gone out of His way to sovereignty preserve them through direct, divine intervention, not their own free will. Their faithfulness to Yahweh and their fidelity not to have worshiped Baal is due, primarily, to what God has done, not to what they have done.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

Now look at some biblical principles:
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples,...
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--Paul uses a number of OT historical examples as illustration to teach NT truth.

Ok....

He does the same thing in Romans chapter 11.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
--Paul first identifies with the nation of Israel himself.
Has God cast them away, replaced them, or do they still exist?

This question would need to be answered as the Jewish theocracy was coming to an end.

In no uncertain words Paul, identifying with Elijah, and says that Israel still exists. He identifies them as "his kinsmen" in Romans 9:1-4 and 10:1-4.

Paul does Identify with the True Israel ....notice...you mention romans 9 :1-4...but9:6-8 is a key text that goes right over your head...
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
you and other dispensationalists always skip over these verses.

If anything this passage strongly refutes those who believe in replacement theology or any similar doctrine. Israel still exists. Paul was acknowledging its existence then, and a remnant would continue to exist in the future. The would always exist. God would make sure of that.

you dance all around it, but miss it once again.

Paul was an Israelite, and he would not be the only one.

Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
--He refers back to the story of Elijah.

yes...to Gods electing love preserving a remnant...

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

--Even now, now during the time of Paul does Israel exist.

wrong....a remnant exists by God's grace.That remnant is now part of the Christian Israel now...one new man in Christ.

Israel has not been replaced by the church or by Christianity.

Israel has been changed. the unbelieving branches are broken off in unbelief.
Jesus is the True Israel. Believing Christian Israel is made up of the elect remnant of Jews,and believing Gentiles grafted into the root promises.

Christianity or "the Church" is not a continuation of Israel.

The Church has always been plan A.....the seed of the woman.
Physical national Israel was the type of the spiritual Israel. A holy nation. They failed...we do not.ex19....1pet2

Israel as an entity in and of itself still exists

.

Israel exists as covenant breaking apostates...not a Godly theocracy. God will save some before the last day.


Strawman alert;

Again, it is a blow to the "Replacement Theology" idealists.

No one here believes in "replacement theology"

There is a remnant now,

What remnant??? Who is this remnant you speak of? is it an ELECT REMNANT?

 

[Iconoclast]

It's not what I see, it's what the text conveys. And, in this text, God's election is conveyed, in a manner of speaking.

We aren't told what God did to preserve the 7,000, but we are told--unequivocally--that He did preserve them...



First, you need to realize that this text is not written in Greek, it's written in Hebrew. Just as with Greek, Hebrew has nuance that is often lost in translation.

We've seen this before with you, however. When discussing John 3:3, you claimed that Jesus is commanding Nicodemus to go get himself born-again. Of course, the Greek will not allow for that. The verb "born-again" is passive, meaning that the subject (Nicodemus) cannot be the one doing the acting and, by definition, must be acted upon. So, in the John 3 passage, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him, not done by him.

In the case of 1 Kings 19:18, we see a similar thing. The word "leave" is the Hebrew שאר (sha'ar). Now, if this verb was in the Qal stem, you might have a point (ignoring that God is Himself the subject of the verb, so He is the one doing the leaving, but I digress...). However, in the text of 1 Kings 19:18, the verb sha'ar is in the Hifil stem which gives it a reflexive quality.

So, actually, the verb itself is conveying the meaning that God (the subject of this first-person singular verb) has caused these 7,000 to remain.

That is what the text says. That is the meaning it conveys. The reason these 7,000 haven't worshiped Baal is because God has gone out of His way to sovereignty preserve them through direct, divine intervention, not their own free will. Their faithfulness to Yahweh and their fidelity not to have worshiped Baal is due, primarily, to what God has done, not to what they have done.

The Archangel

:wavey::thumbsup::wavey: Thank you for once again providing much needed clarity:thumbsup:

 

[Rippon]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




What remnant??? Who is this remnant you speak of? is it an ELECT REMNANT?

DHK says there is a remnant now. I am curious as to how he will answer your question. Will he say it regers to believing Jews? Will he acknowledge that the elect are from both Jews and Gentiles? Will he concede that the "election of grace" is all of God's doing? He elected --He chose. No one has any internal grace whereby they can exercise some sort of power on their own to become elect.

DHK, we await your response.

 

[The American Dream]

Why is it that we insist that flawed human effort can accomplish anything in the Providence of the Lord. Job 38 an 39 shows clearly the divide between a Creator Holy God and a sinful man as the Lord talks to Job.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements?

Surely you know!

Or who stretched the line upon it?

To what were its foundations fastened?

Or who laid its cornerstone,

When the morning stars sang together,

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

“Have you commanded the morning since your days began,

And caused the dawn to know its place,

That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,

And the wicked be shaken out of it?

It takes on form like clay under a seal,

And stands out like a garment.

From the wicked their light is withheld,

And the upraised arm is broken.”



“Have you entered the springs of the sea?

Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Have the gates of death been revealed to you?

Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell Me, if you know all this.”

“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”


“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”


“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”



“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,

Or a path for the thunderbolt,

To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,

A wilderness in which there is no man;

To satisfy the desolate waste,

And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?

Has the rain a father?

Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

From whose womb comes the ice?

And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?

The waters harden like stone,

And the surface of the deep is frozen.”

Job is asked many more questions, but the bottom line is, God is the Creator and man is the created. Everything we have or hope to be is from the Lord. If we cannot help God or accomplish was the Lord did in setting up the universe, how can we possibly think that we have it in us to help the Lord in the salvation process? What gives us the right to think we have it in ourselves to respond to the Divine when we are a fallen, sinful race of people, just as God supplies everything we need to exist on this planet, He supplies all we need for salvation.

Hebrews 2:3 asks a profound question "how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,"

There is no escape for those who neglect such a great salvation. It was spoken by the Lord already. There are no new revelations. The Gospel is complete. It was confirmed by those who heard. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So why is it, in any given group of people, some hear and accept and some neglect such a great salvation? If we have it within ourselves to respond, then why does not everyone respond? If this is part of the character we were born with, then why would anyone neglect eternal life? The answer is because none of us has the ability to respond. It takes outside intervention from God. One can call it regeneration, quickening, or the Holy Spirit revealing to a sinful individual that there is a huge gap between him and a Holy God and that he or she needs a Savior. Its all about God not man. God supplies the faith, grace, mercy, quickening, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Without intervention of the Lord, we remain lost and die in our sins. That is why we should praise the Lord everyday for such a great salvation.

So why is it man demands to exercise a faith from his own inner being that does not exist? The only answer is pride and arrogance. Why is it that so many think they have to "do" something to obtain salvation? I have to walk the aisle. I have to be baptized. I have to say the sinners magic prayer. Salvation is by grace through faith only. God does not need our help.

Romans 1 describes in detail the inner condition of man. How can anyone with any common sense think that with all the filth we have within us we can produce a faith that connects with God? Really, does that make any sense? Each of us in our sin is capable of any sin in the right circumstance. Only the new nature sets us on a new course towards Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

Why is it that we insist that flawed human effort can accomplish anything in the Providence of the Lord. Job 38 an 39 shows clearly the divide between a Creator Holy God and a sinful man as the Lord talks to Job.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements?

Surely you know!

Or who stretched the line upon it?

To what were its foundations fastened?

Or who laid its cornerstone,

When the morning stars sang together,

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

“Have you commanded the morning since your days began,

And caused the dawn to know its place,

That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,

And the wicked be shaken out of it?

It takes on form like clay under a seal,

And stands out like a garment.

From the wicked their light is withheld,

And the upraised arm is broken.”



“Have you entered the springs of the sea?

Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Have the gates of death been revealed to you?

Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell Me, if you know all this.”

“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”


“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”


“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?”



“Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?”



“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,

Or a path for the thunderbolt,

To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,

A wilderness in which there is no man;

To satisfy the desolate waste,

And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?

Has the rain a father?

Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

From whose womb comes the ice?

And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?

The waters harden like stone,

And the surface of the deep is frozen.”

Job is asked many more questions, but the bottom line is, God is the Creator and man is the created. Everything we have or hope to be is from the Lord. If we cannot help God or accomplish was the Lord did in setting up the universe, how can we possibly think that we have it in us to help the Lord in the salvation process? What gives us the right to think we have it in ourselves to respond to the Divine when we are a fallen, sinful race of people, just as God supplies everything we need to exist on this planet, He supplies all we need for salvation.

Hebrews 2:3 asks a profound question "how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,"

There is no escape for those who neglect such a great salvation. It was spoken by the Lord already. There are no new revelations. The Gospel is complete. It was confirmed by those who heard. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So why is it, in any given group of people, some hear and accept and some neglect such a great salvation? If we have it within ourselves to respond, then why does not everyone respond? If this is part of the character we were born with, then why would anyone neglect eternal life? The answer is because none of us has the ability to respond. It takes outside intervention from God. One can call it regeneration, quickening, or the Holy Spirit revealing to a sinful individual that there is a huge gap between him and a Holy God and that he or she needs a Savior. Its all about God not man. God supplies the faith, grace, mercy, quickening, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Without intervention of the Lord, we remain lost and die in our sins. That is why we should praise the Lord everyday for such a great salvation.

So why is it man demands to exercise a faith from his own inner being that does not exist? The only answer is pride and arrogance. Why is it that so many think they have to "do" something to obtain salvation? I have to walk the aisle. I have to be baptized. I have to say the sinners magic prayer. Salvation is by grace through faith only. God does not need our help.

Romans 1 describes in detail the inner condition of man. How can anyone with any common sense think that with all the filth we have within us we can produce a faith that connects with God? Really, does that make any sense? Each of us in our sin is capable of any sin in the right circumstance. Only the new nature sets us on a new course towards Jesus.

PREACH IT, BROTHER!!! OH GLORY!!!

 

[The American Dream]

PREACH IT, BROTHER!!! OH GLORY!!!

Thanks brother, I really appreciate the wild reaction of the RCC and charismatics, both well founded in the faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks brother, I really appreciate the wild reaction of the RCC and charismatics, both well founded in the faith.

Even they could see your post was solid....lol

 

[DHK]

That is what the text says. That is the meaning it conveys. The reason these 7,000 haven't worshiped Baal is because God has gone out of His way to sovereignty preserve them through direct, divine intervention, not their own free will. Their faithfulness to Yahweh and their fidelity not to have worshiped Baal is due, primarily, to what God has done, not to what they have done.

The Archangel

Let's review and see how ridiculous yours and some of the other positions that are posted here, and how we got here.
I was posting some examples of people in the OT who exercised free will in the OT. Some of those examples were:

The 12 sent into Canaan: Ten chose wickedly; Two chose to do right.
--The entire nation, aside from Joshua and Caleb chose to rebel.
--The choice was made out of their own free will in each case.

Then Joshua came to the end of his life. He chose to do good. He gave his life as an example to the Israelites. What will you do? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve: idols or the true God, Jehovah?
--Of their own free will they chose to serve Jehovah not only all the days of Joshua, but for an entire generation after Joshua. It was of their will that they chose to serve him.

I also used the example of Elijah.
Elijah chose to stand up against the prophets of Baal, and defeated 450 of them. The Israel admitted "The Lord, He is God."
Jezebel threatened his life; he became discouraged, and the Lord comforted him. In that chapter the Lord reassured him that he had 7,000 men who had not yet bowed the knee to Baal.
The Lord was not teaching Elijah about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, fore-ordination, etc.
He was comforting Elijah. In no way does this historical passage have anything to do with Romans 11, just as the others don't at this time.
Elijah was not looking forward to the writing of Paul's epistle, and the future remnant of the nation of Israel. For someone to interject Romans 11 into this conversation at this point is insane.

These men: Joshua, Caleb, the other ten "spies", the nation of Israel, Elijah, the 7,000, all of them, chose God and chose to serve him out of their own free will. They were not force to serve him. This is the matter that needs to be addressed, not Romans 11, which is a complete red herring to this discussion. We are looking at OT examples of men who were justified by faith, and chose to serve God by faith, freely of their own will.
That is the context here. Not election, not Romans 11.

 

[convicted1]

How in the world is someone who is dead in sins and trespasses(Eph. 2:1) and also a slave to sin(Rom. 6:17) able to make a free will choice? FYI, in bondage one can't be free...

 

[convicted1]

Thanks brother, I really appreciate the wild reaction of the RCC and charismatics, both well founded in the faith.

It was such a wonderful post even they rejoiced. The people on BB, well...

 

[DHK]

How in the world is someone who is dead in sins and trespasses(Eph. 2:1) and also a slave to sin(Rom. 6:17) able to make a free will choice? FYI, in bondage one can't be free...

Why not read the entire passage to get the context?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He is speaking of positional sanctification vs. progressive sanctification.
The Christian is also described as "dead to sin."
So how can the person who is dead to sin, do any good? Ask yourself the same question? Paul commands you to be dead to sin.
The only way that you are dead to sin is positionally.

The fact is that you sin every day, and you are not completely dead.
Go back to verse 11.
Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin. That is an active verb.
Count yourself to be dead. You are the one that has to do the dying.
Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily."
Jesus said, "If any man come after me, let him take up his cross daily, deny himself, and follow me."
To take up your cross is to die to self. It is something that must be done daily.
You put yourself to death every day; it is not a once and for all action done once in the believer's life and then presto! he is sinless and perfect.

Constantly he must die to sin.
Are you dead to sin. Now, ten minutes from now, in the next hour, tomorrow? all week long? It is a life-long process; not a one-time action.

 

[Iconoclast]

post 53 is the complete denial of the Word of God we are dead to sin

Con1 posted correctly.
if any person has to continually day by day die to sin he is not saved

 

[convicted1]

post 53 is the complete denial of the Word of God we are dead to sin

Con1 posted correctly.
if any person has to continually day by day die to sin he is not saved

Welp, I'm done with him. His obstinance is mind-numbing. He'd been put on ick-nore if not for his mod status. But we have to suffer and wade through his postings...

 

[RLBosley]

DHK

 

[RLBosley]

DHK

These great teachings are in the bible quite often. We do not need to read these truths into any passage. When they appear the people of God rejoice to see these truths. To deny they are in both these places as you are doing is troubling.

With godly men the Spirit of God allows them to delight in His law so they have no desire to sin against Him.

119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

certainly not.....the will is bound by sin

the text does not spell out the exact reason.


The historical narrative is fine.There are many lessons there. But when the Holy Spirit has Paul speak about this ...it is the electing grace of God in preserving a remnant that is highlighted....not jezebel, baal, or anything else:thumbsup:

ATTENTION...here comes the twist into error:thumbsup:


So...you suggest that God is giving a little pep talk to Elijah? He is just simply saying that He noticed others who are serving Him....but God himself is not the cause....it is the mans free will that is the cause.

Really..... That is what was simply being said?

So lets see if that was "simply" explained to Paul by the Spirit in Romans 11....let's see......we are looking for "simply of their own free will"

opps...no...we have this language used instead;
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men


T.Warren;

and again;

and once again;


pt2 to follow

Ok....

He does the same thing in Romans chapter 11.

This question would need to be answered as the Jewish theocracy was coming to an end.

Paul does Identify with the True Israel ....notice...you mention romans 9 :1-4...but9:6-8 is a key text that goes right over your head...
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
you and other dispensationalists always skip over these verses.


you dance all around it, but miss it once again.

Paul was an Israelite, and he would not be the only one.

yes...to Gods electing love preserving a remnant...

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


wrong....a remnant exists by God's grace.That remnant is now part of the Christian Israel now...one new man in Christ.


Israel has been changed. the unbelieving branches are broken off in unbelief.
Jesus is the True Israel. Believing Christian Israel is made up of the elect remnant of Jews,and believing Gentiles grafted into the root promises.


The Church has always been plan A.....the seed of the woman.
Physical national Israel was the type of the spiritual Israel. A holy nation. They failed...we do not.ex19....1pet2


Israel exists as covenant breaking apostates...not a Godly theocracy. God will save some before the last day.

Strawman alert;


No one here believes in "replacement theology"

What remnant??? Who is this remnant you speak of? is it an ELECT REMNANT?

Apparently I'm in gif mode today...

 

[steaver]

Let's review and see how ridiculous yours and some of the other positions that are posted here, and how we got here.
I was posting some examples of people in the OT who exercised free will in the OT. Some of those examples were:

The 12 sent into Canaan: Ten chose wickedly; Two chose to do right.
--The entire nation, aside from Joshua and Caleb chose to rebel.
--The choice was made out of their own free will in each case.

Then Joshua came to the end of his life. He chose to do good. He gave his life as an example to the Israelites. What will you do? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve: idols or the true God, Jehovah?
--Of their own free will they chose to serve Jehovah not only all the days of Joshua, but for an entire generation after Joshua. It was of their will that they chose to serve him.

I also used the example of Elijah.
Elijah chose to stand up against the prophets of Baal, and defeated 450 of them. The Israel admitted "The Lord, He is God."
Jezebel threatened his life; he became discouraged, and the Lord comforted him. In that chapter the Lord reassured him that he had 7,000 men who had not yet bowed the knee to Baal.
The Lord was not teaching Elijah about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, fore-ordination, etc.
He was comforting Elijah. In no way does this historical passage have anything to do with Romans 11, just as the others don't at this time.
Elijah was not looking forward to the writing of Paul's epistle, and the future remnant of the nation of Israel. For someone to interject Romans 11 into this conversation at this point is insane.

These men: Joshua, Caleb, the other ten "spies", the nation of Israel, Elijah, the 7,000, all of them, chose God and chose to serve him out of their own free will. They were not force to serve him. This is the matter that needs to be addressed, not Romans 11, which is a complete red herring to this discussion. We are looking at OT examples of men who were justified by faith, and chose to serve God by faith, freely of their own will.
That is the context here. Not election, not Romans 11.

Thank you once again for your clarity and keeping the discussion on point :thumbsup: You have been doing a great job trying to help them understand the scriptures which they are misinterpreting through the lens of Calvinism :wavey:

 

[steaver]

Why not read the entire passage to get the context?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He is speaking of positional sanctification vs. progressive sanctification.
The Christian is also described as "dead to sin."
So how can the person who is dead to sin, do any good? Ask yourself the same question? Paul commands you to be dead to sin.
The only way that you are dead to sin is positionally.

The fact is that you sin every day, and you are not completely dead.
Go back to verse 11.
Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin. That is an active verb.
Count yourself to be dead. You are the one that has to do the dying.
Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily."
Jesus said, "If any man come after me, let him take up his cross daily, deny himself, and follow me."
To take up your cross is to die to self. It is something that must be done daily.
You put yourself to death every day; it is not a once and for all action done once in the believer's life and then presto! he is sinless and perfect.

Constantly he must die to sin.
Are you dead to sin. Now, ten minutes from now, in the next hour, tomorrow? all week long? It is a life-long process; not a one-time action.

Excellent reasoning and rightly dividing the word of truth :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Will keep raying: for all to see the truth.

 

[DHK]

Welp, I'm done with him. His obstinance is mind-numbing. He'd been put on ick-nore if not for his mod status. But we have to suffer and wade through his postings...

Yes, but the Scriptures speak for themselves. You can't answer the Bible, the actual message, so you attack the messenger instead.
What kind of message does that send?