A Tale of Two Faiths

[Iconoclast]

DHK

There is not an ounce of evidence in the Bible that God, before the foundation of the world chose a select group of people for salvation,

:laugh:

and condemned the rest for an eternal destination of torment. That portrays a God of doing evil and not good; a God who is the author of evil.

:laugh:

Over and over again the Bible declares that God is a God of mercy and shows mercy to all--saved and unsaved alike.
Calvinism portrays God as One who shows no mercy to the unsaved. It is totally unbilblical.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire

 

[blessedwife318]

I said nothing about keeping the law. Please quote me where I said anything about keeping the law.
God requires all men to repent. That is not me, but God. If you have an argument with that command take it up with God.

Check John 3:16-18. We all are commanded to believe--to have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Repentance is the flip side of faith. Both faith and repentance work together. You can't have one without the other.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
That is a command. Salvation is by faith. Over and over again we are shown how salvation is by faith.

There is not an ounce of evidence in the Bible that God, before the foundation of the world chose a select group of people for salvation, and condemned the rest for an eternal destination of torment. That portrays a God of doing evil and not good; a God who is the author of evil.
Over and over again the Bible declares that God is a God of mercy and shows mercy to all--saved and unsaved alike.
Calvinism portrays God as One who shows no mercy to the unsaved. It is totally unbilblical.

I don't have a problem with that command or any of the other commands in Scripture. You said God would not make a command that people could not follow. Is not the law a series of commands. I mean we do call some if them the Ten Commandments. Jesus refers to them. Commands and law are used interchangeably throughout the Bible. So I was just pointing out the logical conclusion of your statement that God does not make a command that man himself is incapable of keeping. So since the Bible makes it clear that man cannot keep all the commandments since All have sinned ROM 3:23 your statement must be false. Don't take it up with me take it up with the Bible.

 

[Rebel]

Your ‘free will’ doctrinal theory could be substantive had the Scriptures started with this narrative in Genesis.

However, from the crucial perspective of reality as related in the Garden of Eden any unbiased reader of God’s Word soon realizes that the one man created upright willfully chose to do that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

By claiming men now have in their power the will to do that which is pleasing to God is to deny the fundamental Christian doctrine of ‘inherent original sin’ inherited from Adam, our forefather.

This is the doctrine of Pelagius, an arch enemy of the faith.

Our erstwhile brother, Winman, was also steeped in this heresy, may God rest his soul.

Winman? What happened to him?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

And another:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--This command is given to idolatrous Athenians.
But the Calvinist says that Paul is foolishly commanding the Athenians to do something that they cannot possibly do.
They don't believe what the Scriptures say. Pity.

Another false charge by you.

God has always commended man to do what he cannot do.

Jesus commanded a man who could not walk....rise up and walk

a man with a withered hand...stretch forth your hand

Dead Lazarus...come forth.

You have become unravelled and post error in every post now:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

I don't have a problem with that command or any of the other commands in Scripture. You said God would not make a command that people could not follow. Is not the law a series of commands. I mean we do call some if them the Ten Commandments. Jesus refers to them. Commands and law are used interchangeably throughout the Bible. So I was just pointing out the logical conclusion of your statement that God does not make a command that man himself is incapable of keeping. So since the Bible makes it clear that man cannot keep all the commandments since All have sinned ROM 3:23 your statement must be false. Don't take it up with me take it up with the Bible.

Man can keep the law--that is the Ten Commandments. Perhaps he cannot keep it 100% of the time throughout his lifetime. But he can keep it.
When is the last time you murdered someone.
How about committed adultery?
What about taking the name of the Lord in vain?

Man can keep the law. But it doesn't lead to salvation. And he can't keep it 100% of the time.
As Paul said here:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--If you break the law but one time in your life you are cursed. That is all it takes. Keeping the law doesn't earn salvation.

Christ is the only way to salvation. You must put your faith in him.
If you are putting your faith in your "election" you have no guarantee that you are one of the elect or not.

 

[DHK]

DHK



Another false charge by you.

God has always commended man to do what he cannot do.

Jesus commanded a man who could not walk....rise up and walk

a man with a withered hand...stretch forth your hand

Dead Lazarus...come forth.

You have become unravelled and post error in every post now:thumbs:

You are the one being foolish.
While on this earth Jesus performed miracles. You are trying to justify your ridiculous theological position by appealing to the miracles of Christ! Pitiful!

 

[blessedwife318]

Man can keep the law--that is the Ten Commandments. Perhaps he cannot keep it 100% of the time throughout his lifetime. But he can keep it.
When is the last time you murdered someone.
How about committed adultery?
What about taking the name of the Lord in vain?

Man can keep the law. But it doesn't lead to salvation. And he can't keep it 100% of the time.
As Paul said here:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--If you break the law but one time in your life you are cursed. That is all it takes. Keeping the law doesn't earn salvation.

Christ is the only way to salvation. You must put your faith in him.
If you are putting your faith in your "election" you have no guarantee that you are one of the elect or not.

If man can keep the law, then he potentially could keep it 100% of the time but he can't. Your man centered philosophy is showing its cracks.

According to Jesus in Matthew 5 I murdered a lot of people growing up as I was an angry child.
Also according to Jesus in Matthew 5 I did commit adultery a few times also while growing up.
I know that in some way I have broken every single one of God's commandments. I know what a depraved sinner I am. But I also know what a great Savior God is.
Your statement is proven false again God does make commands and that man in his own power cannot keep. That is why we need a Savior because man cannot save himself.
Jesus is the only way to be saved and telling man that they can keep Gods commandments is keeping them in bondage.

 

[blessedwife318]

DHK



Another false charge by you.

God has always commended man to do what he cannot do.

Jesus commanded a man who could not walk....rise up and walk

a man with a withered hand...stretch forth your hand

Dead Lazarus...come forth.

You have become unravelled and post error in every post now:thumbs:

Here is another one I thought of Matthew 14:28-29 where Peter walks on water.
"And Peter answered him Lord if it is you command me to come to you on the water. He said Come. So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus."

DHK would have one think that Peter could walk on water in his own strength, that Jesus did not give him the ability to do so.

 

[DHK]

If man can keep the law, then he potentially could keep it 100% of the time but he can't. Your man centered philosophy is showing its cracks.

According to Jesus in Matthew 5 I murdered a lot of people growing up as I was an angry child.
Also according to Jesus in Matthew 5 I did commit adultery a few times also while growing up.
I know that in some way I have broken every single one of God's commandments. I know what a depraved sinner I am. But I also know what a great Savior God is.
Your statement is proven false again God does make commands and that man in his own power cannot keep. That is why we need a Savior because man cannot save himself.
Jesus is the only way to be saved and telling man that they can keep Gods commandments is keeping them in bondage.

Were you responsible for the commands you broke or was God responsible?
When you broke them was it God's fault or yours?

Was the breaking of those commands pre-determined from the foundation of this world? Or would you have been able to prevent some of those sins had you really wanted to?

Now that you are saved do you still wrestle with sin, or are you sinless?
If you sin do you blame it on God or self?
Are you dead to sin? Completely? Then why do you sin? Please read (1John 1:8-10).

Concerning the miracles, when Jesus asked a lame man to walk did the lame man walk? Yes or no?
So was he commanding him to do something he could not do? Yes or no?
If he walked it was obviously something he could do. He did it in the power of Christ. What did he need? He needed to put his faith in the one who could heal him.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are the one being foolish.
While on this earth Jesus performed miracles. You are trying to justify your ridiculous theological position by appealing to the miracles of Christ! Pitiful!

Salvation is a miracle DHK.....unlike your false ideas:thumbsup:

The same miracle working God saves sinners....they do not save themselves as you with your carnal ideas put forth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another one I thought of Matthew 14:28-29 where Peter walks on water.
"And Peter answered him Lord if it is you command me to come to you on the water. He said Come. So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus."

DHK would have one think that Peter could walk on water in his own strength, that Jesus did not give him the ability to do so.

Correct:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

Correct:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Peter walked by faith. As soon as he took his eyes off Jesus he began to sink.

 

[DHK]

Salvation is a miracle DHK.....unlike your false ideas:thumbsup:

The same miracle working God saves sinners....they do not save themselves as you with your carnal ideas put forth.

You show an ignorance of the gospels. Time after time Jesus healed he said:
"You faith has made you whole."
"Go thy way thy faith has healed thee." etc.

 

[blessedwife318]

Were you responsible for the commands you broke or was God responsible?
When you broke them was it God's fault or yours?

Was the breaking of those commands pre-determined from the foundation of this world? Or would you have been able to prevent some of those sins had you really wanted to?

Now that you are saved do you still wrestle with sin, or are you sinless?
If you sin do you blame it on God or self?
Are you dead to sin? Completely? Then why do you sin? Please read (1John 1:8-10).

Concerning the miracles, when Jesus asked a lame man to walk did the lame man walk? Yes or no?
So was he commanding him to do something he could not do? Yes or no?
If he walked it was obviously something he could do. He did it in the power of Christ. What did he need? He needed to put his faith in the one who could heal him.

I am responsible for all my sins. Anything sinful I do is all of me, anything good I do is all of God.

Of course I still sin. It is the non-calvinist or more specifically the Wesleyan branch that believes man can achieve sinless perfection despite what 1 John 1 says.

Sanctification is a process that will not be completed until heaven.

Did they performed the actions through God's power not their own. Do really want to argue that man has the power himself to walk if they are lame or to walk on water?

 

[DHK]

I am responsible for all my sins. Anything sinful I do is all of me, anything good I do is all of God.

And yet the Calvinist argues all is pre-determined by God, making God the author of sin.

Of course I still sin. It is the non-calvinist or more specifically the Wesleyan branch that believes man can achieve sinless perfection despite what 1 John 1 says.

From what I read there are no true Arminians here. It is a pejorative that Calvinists use to describe all who are not Calvinists. We prefer the term "non-Cals." I do believe in eternal security and don't believe in entire sanctification. I am not an Arminian.

Sanctification is a process that will not be completed until heaven.

Ask Icon. He believes that he was made "dead to sin" at the time of salvation. He no longer has a carnal nature, so he says.

Did they performed the actions through God's power not their own. Do really want to argue that man has the power himself to walk if they are lame or to walk on water?

Faith was a requirement.

Look at the Scriptures:
To the Roman Centurion:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where did this centurion "get his faith" from?

To the men carrying the one sick of the palsy Jesus said:
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
--It was their faith; obviously Jesus didn't give it to them.

To the woman diseased with an issue of blood, Jesus said:
Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
--The woman's faith.

To two blind men requesting to be healed, he said:
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
--"their faith"--where did it come from; not from Christ.

A Canaanite woman had a daughter vexed with a demon and came to Jesus for help. Jesus first likened her to a dog:
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
But when she continued to plead, Jesus said:
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
--A Gentile woman had great faith according to Jesus. How did she come by this great faith? She certainly wasn't saved, or regenerated.

Paul came to Lystra and met a cripple:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
--Where did the faith come from? Paul makes no inference that it was from God.

All throughout the Bible, and especially the gospels faith is spoken of in a personal way. Jesus again and again speaks of "your faith."

 

[blessedwife318]

And yet the Calvinist argues all is pre-determined by God, making God the author of sin.

From what I read there are no true Arminians here. It is a pejorative that Calvinists use to describe all who are not Calvinists. We prefer the term "non-Cals." I do believe in eternal security and don't believe in entire sanctification. I am not an Arminian.

Ask Icon. He believes that he was made "dead to sin" at the time of salvation. He no longer has a carnal nature, so he says.

Faith was a requirement.

Look at the Scriptures:
To the Roman Centurion:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where did this centurion "get his faith" from?

To the men carrying the one sick of the palsy Jesus said:
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
--It was their faith; obviously Jesus didn't give it to them.

To the woman diseased with an issue of blood, Jesus said:
Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
--The woman's faith.

To two blind men requesting to be healed, he said:
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
--"their faith"--where did it come from; not from Christ.

A Canaanite woman had a daughter vexed with a demon and came to Jesus for help. Jesus first likened her to a dog:
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
But when she continued to plead, Jesus said:
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
--A Gentile woman had great faith according to Jesus. How did she come by this great faith? She certainly wasn't saved, or regenerated.

Paul came to Lystra and met a cripple:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
--Where did the faith come from? Paul makes no inference that it was from God.

All throughout the Bible, and especially the gospels faith is spoken of in a personal way. Jesus again and again speaks of "your faith."

It is slander against God to claim He makes one sin. I do recognize the tension about God's Sovereignty and Mans responsiblity but I view it like the trinity or the hypoststic union so I take it on faith. The Bible is clear that Salvation is all of God. The Bible is also clear that man is depraved and responsible for his own sins.
I did not call you an Arminian so I'm not sure why you included that little rant to my quote. I was very clear about which branch or non cals believe that they can be perfect.

Faith comes from God. That is clear in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

It is slander against God to claim He makes one sin. I do recognize the tension about God's Sovereignty and Mans responsiblity but I view it like the trinity or the hypoststic union so I take it on faith. The Bible is clear that Salvation is all of God. The Bible is also clear that man is depraved and responsible for his own sins.
I did not call you an Arminian so I'm not sure why you included that little rant to my quote. I was very clear about which branch or non cals believe that they can be perfect.

Faith comes from God. That is clear in the Bible.

No one disputes that salvation is all of God.
However, there is no scripture that teaches that faith comes from God. God does not force you to believe. Did the Phiippian jailer believe with his faith or God's faith when "he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ," as Paul commanded him.
It doesn't say that God gave him the faith to believe.

Neither do any of the above scriptures that I posted above.
Jesus, time and again, said "thy faith" has made you whole.
He didn't give them the faith. Where did it come from?
This totally contradicts what you say in this post.

 

[The American Dream]

Paul's salvation experience alone settles the question, despite the OT misapplied verses.

 

[The American Dream]

No one disputes that salvation is all of God.
However, there is no scripture that teaches that faith comes from God. God does not force you to believe. Did the Phiippian jailer believe with his faith or God's faith when "he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ," as Paul commanded him.
It doesn't say that God gave him the faith to believe.

Neither do any of the above scriptures that I posted above.
Jesus, time and again, said "thy faith" has made you whole.
He didn't give them the faith. Where did it come from?
This totally contradicts what you say in this post.

So if faith does not come from God, then who does it come from? If you say the individual, who created the individual? So did faith originate during the Big Bang and perfected itself during evolution? Or maybe faith comes by self-reflection and self reflection comes by looking in the mirror.

 

[DHK]

So if faith does not come from God, then who does it come from? If you say the individual, who created the individual? So did faith originate during the Big Bang and perfected itself during evolution?

2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.