A Tale of Two Faiths

[convicted1]

Yes, but the Scriptures speak for themselves. You can't answer the Bible, the actual message, so you attack the messenger instead.
What kind of message does that send?

We've showed you, but you must use braille...

 

[Protestant]

Let's review and see how ridiculous yours and some of the other positions that are posted here, and how we got here.
I was posting some examples of people in the OT who exercised free will in the OT. Some of those examples were:

The 12 sent into Canaan: Ten chose wickedly; Two chose to do right.
--The entire nation, aside from Joshua and Caleb chose to rebel.
--The choice was made out of their own free will in each case.

Your ‘free will’ doctrinal theory could be substantive had the Scriptures started with this narrative in Genesis.

However, from the crucial perspective of reality as related in the Garden of Eden any unbiased reader of God’s Word soon realizes that the one man created upright willfully chose to do that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

By claiming men now have in their power the will to do that which is pleasing to God is to deny the fundamental Christian doctrine of ‘inherent original sin’ inherited from Adam, our forefather.

This is the doctrine of Pelagius, an arch enemy of the faith.

Our erstwhile brother, Winman, was also steeped in this heresy, may God rest his soul.

 

[DHK]

Your ‘free will’ doctrinal theory could be substantive had the Scriptures started with this narrative in Genesis.

However, from the crucial perspective of reality as related in the Garden of Eden any unbiased reader of God’s Word soon realizes that the one man created upright willfully chose to do that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

By claiming men now have in their power the will to do that which is pleasing to God is to deny the fundamental Christian doctrine of ‘inherent original sin’ inherited from Adam, our forefather.

This is the doctrine of Pelagius, an arch enemy of the faith.

Our erstwhile brother, Winman, was also steeped in this heresy, may God rest his soul.

"Of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat thereof; for in the day thou eatest theeof thou shalt surely die.
Eve ate. She gave to Adam. Adam also ate.
The realized their sin. They were naked and ashamed and hid themselves.
God sought them out.
Then what happened?

Recognize: "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
They had died. They were dead (spiritually).
And yet God seeks them out, does not regenerate them, or restore them to fellowship immediately, but does speak to them and carries an audible conversation on with this "dead man" that we call Adam.
How does a "dead man" converse with God?
This is the question that Calvinists must answer.

God did not provide a sacrifice for them until some time later when he provided coats of skin, killing the first animal and shedding blood. But up until that time He carries on a conversation with this dead man.
It is evident that Calvinism is wrong. According to Calvinism this cannot happen. Adam is dead. It is impossible for him to speak to God.
And yet you say???

 

[DHK]

We've showed you, but you must use braille...

Oh come now! You never answered the scripture I gave you.

 

[steaver]

"Of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat thereof; for in the day thou eatest theeof thou shalt surely die.
Eve ate. She gave to Adam. Adam also ate.
The realized their sin. They were naked and ashamed and hid themselves.
God sought them out.
Then what happened?

Recognize: "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
They had died. They were dead (spiritually).
And yet God seeks them out, does not regenerate them, or restore them to fellowship immediately, but does speak to them and carries an audible conversation on with this "dead man" that we call Adam.
How does a "dead man" converse with God?
This is the question that Calvinists must answer.

God did not provide a sacrifice for them until some time later when he provided coats of skin, killing the first animal and shedding blood. But up until that time He carries on a conversation with this dead man.
It is evident that Calvinism is wrong. According to Calvinism this cannot happen. Adam is dead. It is impossible for him to speak to God.
And yet you say???

Dead on :thumbsup:

 

[The Archangel]

Let's review and see how ridiculous yours and some of the other positions that are posted here, and how we got here.
I was posting some examples of people in the OT who exercised free will in the OT. Some of those examples were:

The 12 sent into Canaan: Ten chose wickedly; Two chose to do right.
--The entire nation, aside from Joshua and Caleb chose to rebel.
--The choice was made out of their own free will in each case.

Then Joshua came to the end of his life. He chose to do good. He gave his life as an example to the Israelites. What will you do? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve: idols or the true God, Jehovah?
--Of their own free will they chose to serve Jehovah not only all the days of Joshua, but for an entire generation after Joshua. It was of their will that they chose to serve him.

I also used the example of Elijah.
Elijah chose to stand up against the prophets of Baal, and defeated 450 of them. The Israel admitted "The Lord, He is God."
Jezebel threatened his life; he became discouraged, and the Lord comforted him. In that chapter the Lord reassured him that he had 7,000 men who had not yet bowed the knee to Baal.
The Lord was not teaching Elijah about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, fore-ordination, etc.
He was comforting Elijah. In no way does this historical passage have anything to do with Romans 11, just as the others don't at this time.
Elijah was not looking forward to the writing of Paul's epistle, and the future remnant of the nation of Israel. For someone to interject Romans 11 into this conversation at this point is insane.

These men: Joshua, Caleb, the other ten "spies", the nation of Israel, Elijah, the 7,000, all of them, chose God and chose to serve him out of their own free will. They were not force to serve him. This is the matter that needs to be addressed, not Romans 11, which is a complete red herring to this discussion. We are looking at OT examples of men who were justified by faith, and chose to serve God by faith, freely of their own will.
That is the context here. Not election, not Romans 11.

There is absolutely nothing of substance here. You completely ignored any of the text and grammar of 1 Kings 19.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Yes, but the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Yes, they do... But why do you ignore what they say in, for example, 1 Kings 19:18 and John 3:3?

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

"Of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat thereof; for in the day thou eatest theeof thou shalt surely die.
Eve ate. She gave to Adam. Adam also ate.
The realized their sin. They were naked and ashamed and hid themselves.
God sought them out.
Then what happened?

Recognize: "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
They had died. They were dead (spiritually).
And yet God seeks them out, does not regenerate them, or restore them to fellowship immediately, but does speak to them and carries an audible conversation on with this "dead man" that we call Adam.
How does a "dead man" converse with God?
This is the question that Calvinists must answer.

God did not provide a sacrifice for them until some time later when he provided coats of skin, killing the first animal and shedding blood. But up until that time He carries on a conversation with this dead man.
It is evident that Calvinism is wrong. According to Calvinism this cannot happen. Adam is dead. It is impossible for him to speak to God.
And yet you say???

God spoke to Satan, and he's as spiritually dead as anyone will ever be. Just because God speaks to someone, doesn't mean it's in a saving manner. He also conversed with Cain. I know of no sacrifice made on his behalf, but He still spoke with Cain.

God's voice is so powerful, that even the dead of centuries ago will hear and respond to Him calling them from their graves.

When we speak to the unregenerate in preaching and/or witnessing, it goes in one ear and out the other. When God speaks, they WILL hear...

 

[convicted1]

Dead on :thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Oh come now! You never answered the scripture I gave you.

Unless I'd say "amen" , you'd brush it aside like every other sound biblical doctrine...

 

[DHK]

God spoke to Satan, and he's as spiritually dead as anyone will ever be. Just because God speaks to someone, doesn't mean it's in a saving manner. He also conversed with Cain. I know of no sacrifice made on his behalf, but He still spoke with Cain.

God's voice is so powerful, that even the dead of centuries ago will hear and respond to Him calling them from their graves.

When we speak to the unregenerate in preaching and/or witnessing, it goes in one ear and out the other. When God speaks, they WILL hear...

That has been my point all along. Your definition of dead in Eph.2:1 is wrong. It does not mean lifeless corpse as you define it. It simply means separated from God--spiritually. Therefore God is still able to speak to them.
Satan, Cain, Adam, God spoke to them all thought they were separated from God or spiritually dead. It destroys some of the most important of Calvinistic teachings.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

He is speaking of positional sanctification vs. progressive sanctification.

No....He is saying to real christians who are positionally perfect in heaven, to live accordingly here on earth.

The Christian is also described as "dead to sin."

He is described that way because he is dead indeed unto sin.

So how can the person who is dead to sin, do any good?

By law keeping.

Ask yourself the same question?

still by law keeping.

Paul commands you to be dead to sin.

Wrong...Paul declares real Christians are dead to sin.

The only way that you are dead to sin is positionally

.
Wrong again...we are dead to sins reigning power right now.If you are not you are not yet a Chrisitian.

The fact is that you sin every day, and you are not completely dead.

The reason you cannot understand is you are conflating the issues. A biblical Christian is set free from sins bondage. He does not have to sin by practice as he once did. He still has to deal with remaining sin, but he is now empowered to mortify sin by the Spirit.

You deny this. You deny the Spirits unseen work in regeneration. In fact you do not understand biblical salvation or sanctification.

Go back to verse 11.
Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin. That is an active verb.

Yes and everywhere in verses 1-10 the language was aorist tense...completed action by God....

Count yourself to be dead.

A biblical Christian is dead indeed unto sin...he is to reckon it to be so in his actions, in other words...live like who you are. Anything less is a denial of the Spirits work in sanctification.

You are the one that has to do the dying.

No...wrong....in reference to this discussion...those In Christ have been co-crucified with and In Him. We have died and risen In Him.

Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily."
Jesus said, "If any man come after me, let him take up his cross daily, deny himself, and follow me."
To take up your cross is to die to self. It is something that must be done daily.

self denial is not what Romans 6 is about...you are confusing the issues.

You put yourself to death every day;

This is not biblical at all. You have a wounded Adam, and now a zombie kind of christian....your theology is not biblical but opposes directly the biblical teaching.

it is not a once and for all action done once in the believer's life and then presto! he is sinless and perfect.

The aorist tense teaches differently. You have had this explained to you several times So now you are not just mistaken ,but teaching wilful falsehoods.

Constantly he must die to sin.

And constantly you error by teaching this. He is dead indeed unto the power of sin to reign over him.He no longer has to obey sin.

Are you dead to sin.

yes

Now, ten minutes from now, in the next hour, tomorrow? all week long? It is a life-long process; not a one-time action.

When the Spirit quickens a sinner to life and performs heart transplant surgery...that is a completed action at one point in time.
That sinner then deals with remaining sin and corruption by mortification of sin .:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

That has been my point all along. Your definition of dead in Eph.2:1 is wrong. It does not mean lifeless corpse as you define it. It simply means separated from God--spiritually. Therefore God is still able to speak to them.
Satan, Cain, Adam, God spoke to them all thought they were separated from God or spiritually dead. It destroys some of the most important of Calvinistic teachings.

And you have been shown over and over what the Spirit had them write...you deny the truth.You have not destroyed anything , but your error makes Cal teaching shine through:wavey::wavey:

 

[convicted1]

That has been my point all along. Your definition of dead in Eph.2:1 is wrong. It does not mean lifeless corpse as you define it. It simply means separated from God--spiritually. Therefore God is still able to speak to them.
Satan, Cain, Adam, God spoke to them all thought they were separated from God or spiritually dead. It destroys some of the most important of Calvinistic teachings.

It doesn't destroy Calvinism it the least. It's your lack of truly understanding what Calvinism is.

Man is spiritually dead and can not respond to God UNLESS He first speaks to them. Man's will, man's desire is bent away from desiring God and loving self. Man left to his own devices will never seek God. That desire just isn't there, it's not innate, neither is his faith. Unless God intercedes on their behalf, they'll die(rightfully) in their sins.

When God speaks, whether in a saving manner as His drawing them, or speaking to Adam, Eve, Cain, Satan, et al, they WILL hear.

When God draws, they WILL come...

 

[Iconoclast]

Your ‘free will’ doctrinal theory could be substantive had the Scriptures started with this narrative in Genesis.

However, from the crucial perspective of reality as related in the Garden of Eden any unbiased reader of God’s Word soon realizes that the one man created upright willfully chose to do that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

By claiming men now have in their power the will to do that which is pleasing to God is to deny the fundamental Christian doctrine of ‘inherent original sin’ inherited from Adam, our forefather.

This is the doctrine of Pelagius, an arch enemy of the faith.

Our erstwhile brother, Winman, was also steeped in this heresy, may God rest his soul.

:thumbs::wavey::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Protestant]

"Of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat thereof; for in the day thou eatest theeof thou shalt surely die.
Eve ate. She gave to Adam. Adam also ate.
The realized their sin. They were naked and ashamed and hid themselves.
God sought them out.
Then what happened?

You conveniently omitted key points in the historical record.

1. Man has an enemy who is smarter, stronger and more cunning than can be imagined.

Your ‘free will’ theory will vanish in the dust if you ever come to believe the overwhelming power Satan exerts over the weakling, naïve, sin loving unregenerate as testified in Scripture.

You deny the doctrine of Satan’s immensely cruel and wicked dominion over mankind.

Thus, you are his advocate.

Satan approves your advocacy and will reward you well for it.

2. Man does not seek out God. He runs from His holiness and righteousness.

Thus, man is not ‘free’ to embrace the Lord. Seeking the Lord runs contrary to man’s fallen nature.

3. Man instinctively seeks other ways to ‘atone’ for his sin. The true Jesus Christ is not one of them. Adam attempted to cover his sin by using his own willful ingenuity.

The Lord first stripped them of their false religion.

This He does with all the Elect.

He then shed the blood of His lamb and covered them with its skin by His own hands.

Neither Adam nor Eve contributed one thing to their salvation.

Likewise men post-fall do not contribute one thing to their salvation, including the good use of their ‘free will.’

‘Free will’ is an evil fiction which glorifies man as a god, and profanes the glorious all-sufficient work of the true God in our salvation.

4. By asking the rhetorical question, Adam, Where are you?, the Lord is signifying that all mankind in Adam are lost.

The profound inference of this question lies in the fact that unless the Lord brings that divine truth to the attentive regenerated ear of the sinner, he will continue in his lostness, totally oblivious as to his condition before God, ever deluded that a condemning judgment is not in his future.

Hath God said ye are dead in your sins and trespasses? Surely you are only ‘separated’ from Him.

 

[DHK]

You conveniently omitted key points in the historical record.

1. Man has an enemy who is smarter, stronger and more cunning than can be imagined.

Your ‘free will’ theory will vanish in the dust if you ever come to believe the overwhelming power Satan exerts over the weakling, naïve, sin loving unregenerate as testified in Scripture.

You deny the doctrine of Satan’s immensely cruel and wicked dominion over mankind.

Thus, you are his advocate.

Satan approves your advocacy and will reward you well for it.

From whence comes this babble?
You have no Scripture, no message, so you--like others, attack the messenger. I don't see any scripture quoted, but I do see a lot of personal attacks.
--telling me: I am Satan's advocate, and other such foolish accusations.

2. Man does not seek out God. He runs from His holiness and righteousness.

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Psalms 40:16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Does God command his creature to do those things that are impossible for them to do. I realize that Calvinism teaches that wickedness also found in the doctrine of reprobation, but that is what I label it--a wicked doctrine that brings libel on the character of a God of love.

Thus, man is not ‘free’ to embrace the Lord. Seeking the Lord runs contrary to man’s fallen nature.

According to Calvin, not the Bible.
The Bible commands the unsaved man to "Seek God," to Repent," etc.
God is not so cruel as to command his creation to do those things which are impossible for them to do.

3. Man instinctively seeks other ways to ‘atone’ for his sin. The true Jesus Christ is not one of them. Adam attempted to cover his sin by using his own willful ingenuity.

And yet God still spoke to him and he still spoke to God, thus your vain philosophies are proven wrong.

The Lord first stripped them of their false religion.

This He does with all the Elect.

Are you inferring that Calvin's "elect" are a "false religion"?

He then shed the blood of His lamb and covered them with its skin by His own hands.

Neither Adam nor Eve contributed one thing to their salvation.

I don't know of anyone here that said anything to the contrary. Are you suggesting that some do?

Likewise men post-fall do not contribute one thing to their salvation, including the good use of their ‘free will.’

"Faith" is not a work. Apparently you have forsaken any belief you ever may have had in sola fide.

‘Free will’ is an evil fiction which glorifies man as a god, and profanes the glorious all-sufficient work of the true God in our salvation.

Really? Then tell me this. If only the elect are saved (and that of course is true), and only by the grace of God and the grace of God ALONE, then how can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

4. By asking the rhetorical question, Adam, Where are you?, the Lord is signifying that all mankind in Adam are lost.

Allegories mean little to me, especially coming from you. One can make the Bible say anything they want. He was wooing Adam to come back to fellowship with Him. Adam was part of his creation. After he finished, he looked and said: "it was very good."

The profound inference of this question lies in the fact that unless the Lord brings that divine truth to the attentive regenerated ear of the sinner, he will continue in his lostness, totally oblivious as to his condition before God, ever deluded that a condemning judgment is not in his future.

Hath God said ye are dead in your sins and trespasses? Surely you are only ‘separated’ from Him.

Adam was only separated from God. You simply have a philosophy with no Biblical basis. He needed to be reconciled back to God which the Lord did by offering a sacrifice. The initiated; Adam answered.

The same was true with Cain. The Lord spoke; Cain answered.
Cain was able to answer the Lord even though he was and remained unregenerate.
God has given to all mankind a command: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found."

And another:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--This command is given to idolatrous Athenians.
But the Calvinist says that Paul is foolishly commanding the Athenians to do something that they cannot possibly do.
They don't believe what the Scriptures say. Pity.

 

[The American Dream]

Arminian Paul Goes to Damascus just for convicted1

Acts 9
One day Saul-Paul was taking some Christians to Damascus for lion snacks. It was clear out, the sky was a bright blue, and the temperatures were wonderful. He felt so good he started singing "Onward Christian Prisoners, Marching as to Syria." Paul wondered aloud if Christ is indeed risen, why does not He help my prisoners. All day there was no sign of the Risen Christ.

About noon, Paul started feeling guilty. One of the kids being transported fell ill, and the mother begged for mercy. Paul reached down into the depths of his inner being and finally realized, that he was not treating these people correct. Finally he concluded that maybe there is something to this Risen Christ thing, if these people are so dedicated to him they will face death. He thought "maybe I am wrong." His guilt continued to grow, until finally he got on his knees and prayed, "Lord, I am so thankful I finally realized that I am a sinner for treating these people like this. Thank you for not allowing me to be like the other Pharisees and continue to sin. I have decided to get saved today." At that point he let all the prisoners go. Proud at what he had accomplished, he thought, what a zipadee do dah day. Think I will skip to my lou back to Jerusalem.

End Chapter 9

 

[blessedwife318]

Does God command his creature to do those things that are impossible for them to do. I realize that Calvinism teaches that wickedness also found in the doctrine of reprobation, but that is what I label it--a wicked doctrine that brings libel on the character of a God of love.

According to Calvin, not the Bible.
The Bible commands the unsaved man to "Seek God," to Repent," etc.
God is not so cruel as to command his creation to do those things which are impossible for them to do.

The logical conclusion of your point here is that man could possibly save himself by keeping all if the law. Since you said that God would not command his creation to do something they were not able to do then it just stands to reason that it is possible for someone to keep all off the commandments that He gave.
Although that totally ignores the purpose of the Law which is to show us how sinful we really are. That we cannot keep it. So yes God does command us to do something we cannot do to point us to the Savior. And no that does not make Him cruel in the least.

 

[DHK]

The logical conclusion of your point here is that man could possibly save himself by keeping all if the law. Since you said that God would not command his creation to do something they were not able to do then it just stands to reason that it is possible for someone to keep all off the commandments that He gave.
Although that totally ignores the purpose of the Law which is to show us how sinful we really are. That we cannot keep it. So yes God does command us to do something we cannot do to point us to the Savior. And no that does not make Him cruel in the least.

I said nothing about keeping the law. Please quote me where I said anything about keeping the law.
God requires all men to repent. That is not me, but God. If you have an argument with that command take it up with God.

Check John 3:16-18. We all are commanded to believe--to have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Repentance is the flip side of faith. Both faith and repentance work together. You can't have one without the other.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
That is a command. Salvation is by faith. Over and over again we are shown how salvation is by faith.

There is not an ounce of evidence in the Bible that God, before the foundation of the world chose a select group of people for salvation, and condemned the rest for an eternal destination of torment. That portrays a God of doing evil and not good; a God who is the author of evil.
Over and over again the Bible declares that God is a God of mercy and shows mercy to all--saved and unsaved alike.
Calvinism portrays God as One who shows no mercy to the unsaved. It is totally unbilblical.