A very interesting God.

[kyredneck]

You know, joy, as in Neh 8:10.

Larry, have you been formenting stuff at home again. Ha ha ha ha ha:thumbs:

What's the matter? You never sang that song as a youngster? Out of the mouths of babes.

....Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mt 18:3

for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What's the matter? You never sang that song as a youngster? Out of the mouths of babes.

....Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mt 18:3

for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

No.....Ava Maria yes.....and not with some creepy dyed blond with a Paige boy haircut glaring at me...no n no.

Irish Catholic nuns dressed in Penguin costumes with rulers & pointers aimed at me....yes. Have you ever lived through 2 hour Latin Masses? :laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

....all sounds very killjoy to me....

(hey, the bleach blonde is doing a good job with those deaf kids)

[add]

“I feel sorry for little babies... When a little baby is born into this cold world, he's confused! He's frightened! He needs something to cheer him up... The way I see it, as soon as a baby is born, he should be issued a banjo!” Linus
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/53210-the-complete-peanuts-1959-1960-vol-5

 

[kyredneck]

Maybe this is more to your taste...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AcmUK8oJUY

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe this is more to your taste...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AcmUK8oJUY

Try it in sacred harp..then maybe.:laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

Googled it, couldn't find it, sorry.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Then how do you explain the following:

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Is quickened the same as redeemed ? Does God quicken the dead sinner first, or does He redeem him first THEN quicken him.

2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

the above is self-explanatory.

If one is spiritually dead they are spiritually dead!

did I say they weren't ?
are you saying the eternal salvation wrought on the cross is not done ?

Can you support that by Scripture?

well, have you preached and taught the gospel to EVERY creature ?
which was the original premise of this thread, in case you didn't take the time to read up from the beginning, which is understandable.
have you preached and taught the gospel to newborn babies, or are you saying God dumps these to hell because they never heard the gospel, and therefore had occassion to obey it.
have you preached and taught the gospel to EVERY member of EVERY far-flung tribe in the farthest reaches of the Amazon, or the African jungles ? or does God dump them all to hell until some missionary/teacher gets to them.

 

[salzer mtn]

In St. John chapter 8 Christ is having a dialog with the unbelieving Jews and he told them in verse 23 that they were from beneath and of this world. In verse 24 Christ also told the Jews that they would die in their sins, but this verse does not end here, he goes on and say's IF ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. So what can we learn from this verse ? Number one, All men are condemned to die, ye shall die in your sins. Number two, Christ stresses to the Jews the word believe. The word believe cannot be left out of eternal salvation, and in this verse eternal salvation is being discussed, not time salvation. Why is time salvation, a doctrine of PB not being discussed here ? Answer: The results of not believing in verse 24 is dying in your sins if you do not believe.

 

[kyredneck]

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit." (YLT)

OR, 'Old Regulars' live and die by that!

 

[kyredneck]

Salzer, do you also hold that all OT Gentiles outside of the Mosaic Covenant went to hell?

 

[kyredneck]

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5:39

IMO, Christianity in general has made the same mistake.

Without the Spirit, it's just ink on paper.

'Gospel regeneration' is just as erroneous as 'baptismal regeneration' or 'works regeneration'. But don't worry, you won't go to hell if you disagree with that.

Paul reiterates it here:

but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

There is no 'formula' to be found in the scriptures that abolishes death or imparts life and immortality, the gospels tells of it, it doesn't impart it.

 

[salzer mtn]

Christ is salvation. Believing in Christ cannot be left out of eternal salvation. Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: For there in none other NAME under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved. If a person has a Christless gospel of eternal life, he has no gospel at all. You ask me if I believe all OT gentiles outside of the Mosanic covenant went to hell. No, Rahab the harlot went to heaven, as an example.

 

[pinoybaptist]

In St. John chapter 8 Christ is having a dialog with the unbelieving Jews and he told them in verse 23 that they were from beneath and of this world.

true. but Jesus actually say they were children of wrath ? Now I'm not saying that ALL of these Jews were of the elect, but neither am I prepared to say they were all not of God's people.

In verse 24 Christ also told the Jews that they would die in their sins, but this verse does not end here, he goes on and say's IF ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Is dying IN your sins the same as dying FOR your sins ?
The phrase "I am HE" speaks of Him being the Messiah, and they do not believe He IS the Messiah, that is their sin, from which all their other sins stem.

But, notice, the same chapter, verse 30 says "as He spake these words, many believed on Him", and yet, these same people who believed on Him, insisted on their lineal descent from Abraham and in verse 37 Jesus still identified them with those who seek to kill Him.

I hope you see the folly of basing one's eternal salvation on the fickleness of man's faith.

It is CHRIST who is the Rock and the Foundation of man's salvation, not the faith and belief of man.
His work stands ANY test.
Our works, which include belief, and faith, is oftentimes hay and stubble.

So what can we learn from this verse ? Number one, All men are condemned to die, ye shall die in your sins. Number two,

Are Jews ALL men ?
and also this brings us back to one of the main premises of this thread, that God and Christ, being One, cannot possibly issue orders and instructions contradictory to the ability of man, which is preaching the gospel to EVERY creature as a condition of eternal salvation.
In like manner, this same God stated in so many places that His purpose will always happen, and Nebuchadnezzar confirmed this when he said "He does what he will in the army of heaven and of earth".
Now, if from the foundation of the world, He purposed to save a people unto Himself FROM the fallen posterity of Adam, and He writes their Names in His mind (the book of Life), and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world, therefore, in all principle, that blood is shed, how then can ALL MEN be condemned to die ?
On what basis did God un-condemn the likes of Enoch and Elijah ?
On their faith ?
Do you have anything to point to that says Elijah's faith, for example, was steadfast and unmoving as Jesus' faith ?


well, it's been nice talking to you.
need to go out with the wife the whole day, so I'll come back for the rest of your post.
have a good day.

 

[salzer mtn]

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5:39

IMO, Christianity in general has made the same mistake.

Without the Spirit, it's just ink on paper.

'Gospel regeneration' is just as erroneous as 'baptismal regeneration' or 'works regeneration'. But don't worry, you won't go to hell if you disagree with that.

Paul reiterates it here:

but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

There is no 'formula' to be found in the scriptures that abolishes death or imparts life and immortality, the gospels tells of it, it doesn't impart it.

I do not deny the Holy Spirit is in the formula of eternal salvation. I know a person must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but it leads to belief of the truth, 11 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF of THE TRUTH: Whereunto he called you by our GOSPEL. So what is this gospel that men believes when they are regenerated by the Spirit ? Answer: Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST: for it is the power of God UNTO SALVATION to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the gentile.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ is salvation. Believing in Christ cannot be left out of eternal salvation.

What did 'my personal act of believing' in this time dimension have to do with my name being written in the book in the eternal dimension?

Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You're taking that out of context. He's speaking to 'that generation' of Jews who betrayed and murdered Him. What He's saying is in the same vein as:

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2:40

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13

Ignoring the immense significance of 'that generation' given in the scriptures is like having a grand canyon sized hole in your theology.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: For there in none other NAME under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved.

Nothing PBs teach disputes that. What we'll dispute is what mainstream Christianity has done with the meaning of the word 'sozo'.

If a person has a Christless gospel of eternal life, he has no gospel at all.

AMEN!

You ask me if I believe all OT gentiles outside of the Mosanic covenant went to hell. No, Rahab the harlot went to heaven, as an example.

:thumbs: ...and in the direct lineage of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

I do not deny the Holy Spirit is in the formula of eternal salvation. I know a person must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but it leads to belief of the truth, 11 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF of THE TRUTH: Whereunto he called you by our GOSPEL. So what is this gospel that men believes when they are regenerated by the Spirit ? Answer: Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST: for it is the power of God UNTO SALVATION to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the gentile.

SALVATION. SAVED. The gospel 'saves'. PBs preach that wholeheartedly, I believe that wholeheartedly. What we/I don't believe is that means 'the acquisition of immortality', or 'once bound for hell but now bound for heaven', as what is almost universally believed in mainstream Christianity.

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Those believing/relying on Christ are already 'immortal', by their belief and obedience comes 'the quality of' eternal life.

'lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called'

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

SALVATION. SAVED. The gospel 'saves'. PBs preach that wholeheartedly, I believe that wholeheartedly. What we/I don't believe is that it doesn't mean 'the acquisition of immortality', or 'once bound for hell but now bound for heaven', as what is almost universally believed in mainstream Christianity.

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Those believing/relying on Christ are already 'immortal', by their belief and obedience comes 'the quality of' eternal life.

'lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called'

What do you mean by, " the acquisition of immortality' We were chosen from before the foundations of the world....For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of the son, that he may be the 1st born among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called: those he called , he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

"What then shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all---how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?"

In the last passage, those who have been foreknown, predestined , called, justified, and glorified are those for whom Christ died. They are those who have been chosen by God to belong to Jesus before the foundation of the world.

 

[kyredneck]

What do you mean by, " the acquisition of immortality'.....

"...Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved..."

I'm pretty sure than salzer, along with myriads of others, read that as:

'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt 'go to heaven', i.e. 'acquire immortality'.

...never mind the rest of it that reads "..thou and thy house".

 

[OldRegular]

Is quickened the same as redeemed ? Does God quicken the dead sinner first, or does He redeem him first THEN quicken him.

God chosen the dead sinner in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and then "in time" makes him spiritually alive!

the above is self-explanatory.

You are ignoring the Scripture!

did I say they weren't ?
are you saying the eternal salvation wrought on the cross is not done ?

Everything necessary for the salvation of the Elect was accomplished on the Cross but those elect are saved in time!

well, have you preached and taught the gospel to EVERY creature ?
which was the original premise of this thread, in case you didn't take the time to read up from the beginning, which is understandable.
have you preached and taught the gospel to newborn babies, or are you saying God dumps these to hell because they never heard the gospel, and therefore had occassion to obey it.
have you preached and taught the gospel to EVERY member of EVERY far-flung tribe in the farthest reaches of the Amazon, or the African jungles ? or does God dump them all to hell until some missionary/teacher gets to them.

I have said that God will bring all his elect to Salvation. Can you dispute that! Furthermore I was not responding to the OP but the statement:

In the ETERNAL salvation of His people, the matter is already done. It is not being done.

In the "gospel" salvation of His people, not all will experience it.

I have not seen you produce any Scripture to support either statement in the above.

 

[salzer mtn]

"...Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved..."

I'm pretty sure than salzer, along with myriads of others, read that as:

'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt 'go to heaven', i.e. 'acquire immortality'.

...never mind the rest of it that reads "..thou and thy house".

I do not believe faith as a condition to salvation, but as a result of salvation (faith is a gift of God and a fruit of the Spirit). However I not only believe the faith of Gods elect will lay hold on Christ as their redeemer in the past tense but also in the present tense also, which is the day God revealed his Son in me, Gal 1:16 that PB say, God may or may not make this salvation known to the elect.