About to hit the fan in the SBC

[Iconoclast]

Old regular...



Huh???

The goodness and power of fallen man???

Where in the WORLD do you get such bizarre notions??


We get it from Gen 2-3...romans 5





ALL men and women are fallen sinners, and NOTHING in the SBC statement contradicts that truth in any way, shape or form.

everything in the statement contradicts the truth, they denied romans 5
re read that statement and be honest

 

[HAMel]

It does appear to me the SBC (itself) is often considered to be held in higher esteem than our Lord, to begin with.

What is the SBC? We attended a SBC Church many years ago and the obvious position of that local church was to adhere specifically to the mandates of the SBC. As if the local church could not think for themselves! Our preacher almost always offered messages that were compatible to and in conjunction with the Sunday School literature for that Sunday morning..., which came from the Home Office, if you will.

Do many really look toward the SBC for all things? Has the SBC become the Head Quarters much as the Vatican has? Has the SBC been elevated to that of cult status?

I know of a lady right now who was raised in a SB church all her life. She supports abortion rights; homosexual and lesbian marriage; legalizing drugs; and she will fight to her last breath in defense of these positions. Course, she is but one out of many but somewhere along the lines she missed the boat.

What is the SBC?

 

[Greektim]

To be clear... this is not a mandate that came down from the SBC per se. But many non-Calvinistic pastors and professors (even saw a student on the list?) signed the statement. It is not an official position for the denomination. It is an official position for certain folks within the denomination.

 

[OldRegular]

My problem? Nuff said, it is no wonder the SBC wants to get rid of Calvinists.

I am not SBC, but I understand what they are trying to do and why. The majority of folks in SBC churches do not agree with Calvinism and they do not want to be identified with it. They don't want a person to think of Calvinism when they think of "Southern Baptist".

Winman

You are demonstrating your ignorance of Southern Baptists.

I don't blame them. If I told someone I was a Baptist, and they said, "Oh, you are one of those guys that thinks God only loves a few persons and wants to send everyone else to hell.", I would be very offended. I would quickly explain that that is not my view of God whatsoever, and that is not the view of the vast majority of "Baptists".

You guys don't get it, most Baptists do not share your beliefs, and they want nothing to do with it.

Winman,

Once again you are demonstrating your ignorance of the Doctrine of Grace.

 

[OldRegular]

ALL men and women are fallen sinners, and NOTHING in the SBC statement contradicts that truth in any way, shape or form.

That is NOT an SBC statement.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I don't blame them. If I told someone I was a Baptist, and they said, "Oh, you are one of those guys that thinks God only loves a few persons and wants to send everyone else to hell.", I would be very offended. I would quickly explain that that is not my view of God whatsoever, and that is not the view of the vast majority of "Baptists".

The highlighted reminds me of something Jesus said in Luke 13:23,24.

 

[Alive in Christ]

everything in the statement contradicts the truth, they denied romans 5
re read that statement and be honest

Iconolast...

I just read the entirety of Romans 5. There is nothing...NOTHING...in Romans 5 that is not supported beautifully by the doctrinal statement in question.

You are so confused, Icon. Amazingly confused.

 

[SolaSaint]

:laugh:They did Winman,they started the sbc:laugh:
The founders movement in the sbc has been calling baptists back to their roots....

read and learn Winman...instead of foaming out your "ideas"
Founders Ministries is a ministry of teaching and encouragement promoting both doctrine and devotion expressed in the Doctrines of Grace and their experiential application to the local church, particularly in the areas of worship and witness. Founders Ministries takes as its theological framework the first recognized confession of faith that Southern Baptists produced, The Abstract of Principles. We desire to encourage the return to and promulgation of the biblical gospel that our Southern Baptist forefathers held dear.


They were calvinists....wheat......the tares grow alongside them until the harvest:thumbs:

Great Post Icon

 

[SolaSaint]

To be clear... this is not a mandate that came down from the SBC per se. But many non-Calvinistic pastors and professors (even saw a student on the list?) signed the statement. It is not an official position for the denomination. It is an official position for certain folks within the denomination.

Maybe so but I have a problem with the language used in the preamble where they are claiming new Calvinists are pushing an agenda upon the SBC.

 

[glazer1972]

I agree

My mother's SBC pastor is now preaching a Sunday evening series on how the Calvinists are trying to destroy the SBC ...

He should be talking about how the Calvinists are trying to get the SBC back to the roots of the Baptist Faith.

He should read the the LBC of 1689 sometime.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm still not sure what New Calvinists are. Are they young Calvinists, or those who have recently discovered the DoG? Do they believe differently from us old Calvinists?

I'm not quite sure who these NCs are targeted by the statement under discussion.

 

[Iconoclast]

He should be talking about how the Calvinists are trying to get the SBC back to the roots of the Baptist Faith.

He should read the the LBC of 1689 sometime.

Yes he should...he should look here:

http://www.founders.org/found.html?...1&Q=abstract+of+systematic+theology&sa=Search

 

[kyredneck]

The Founder's (or Old School SB) distinction between regeneration and conversion is in line with Reformed, Primitive, and some Old Regular Baptists:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1803103&highlight=Carroll#post1803103

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm assuming that those who signed the statement in question also embrace the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the general doctrinal statement of Southern Baptists.

If my assumption is right, then it appears they are attacking what they embrace.

Here is what section IV-a says:

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

And here is the first paragraph of Section V on Election:

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

I can comfortably embrace these statements, and I'm a Calvinist. They're not, so can they?

 

[Jerome]

Founder's. . .is in line with Reformed, Primitive, and some Old Regular Baptists

Thank you, kyredneck. You're right that it's a throwback to hyper and hardshell innovations that regular Baptists repudiated long ago.

Bob Ross explains:

http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0004.htm

One of the Baptist champions of the past was Abraham Booth (1734-1806), well-known for his great book, The Reign of Grace. He also wrote a great work entitled, Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners, in which he refutes the view of "pre-faith regeneration." It is one of the works which helped Baptists of that age avoid the pitfalls of hyper-Calvinism.

C. H. Spurgeon said of Booth and his book:

"I have read with some degree of attention a book to which I owe much for this present discourse—a book, by Abraham Booth, called Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners. I have never heard any one cast a suspicion upon Abraham Booth's soundness; on the contrary, he has been generally considered as one of the most orthodox of the divines of the last generation. If you want my views in full, read his book" (The Warrant of Faith, page 539, Sermon #531, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Volume 9, year 1863).

Here are excerpts from Booth's book
. . . . .
"[That r]egeneration must precede faith. . . .may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believe in Jesus Christ"
. . . . .
"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining that the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of human nature, before he can have the filial relation to his father which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature."
. . . . .
"Thus it is, I conceive, with regard to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not as believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to the apostolic doctrine."
. . . . .

Abraham Booth goes on his book to consider some of the objections and arguments of the hyper-Calvinists of his day who taught "pre-faith regeneration." It is noteworthy that some of the same thought is expressed today by hypers, Hardshells, and hybrid Calvinists.

I looked in the index of James White's book, The Potter's Freedom, and noticed he has no reference to great passages used by Mr. Booth which teach the necessity of the means of the Gospel or Word in regeneration. No reference to John 6:63; 1 Corinthians 2:4, 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; 1 Peter 1:23. The absence of such passages in White's books is consistent with his "pre-faith regeneration" theory.

 

[Benjamin]

I'm assuming that those who signed the statement in question also embrace the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the general doctrinal statement of Southern Baptists.

Apparently, the BF&M is just a little too “general” as it allows hyper-determinists to pull their doctrines out from within it.

If my assumption is right, then it appears they are attacking what they embrace.

That’s because it is your assumption that it allows for the Doctrine of Determinisic Grace and embraces it.

It has come to a point in time (because of overzealous “New Calvinist” agendas who have it to subscribe to Calvinist soteriology) that some clarifications are needed to filter out some of the deterministic presumptions that could be drawn out of the BF&M that were originally intended to cover a plurality of views pertaining to soteriology.

Here is what section IV-a says:

Case in point:
"Here is what section IV-a says:"

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

"And here is the first paragraph of Section V on Election:"

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

From the first paragraph I, a non-Calvinist see the new birth as a result of response to the influence of the Holy Spirit and the change to “freely” come from my heart and would agree that faith is inseparable from the experiences of grace.

But the Calvinist reads it as God’s work forcibly “causes” some of the specially pre-selected few to have faith and that their idea of the means of faith is inseparable from their idealogy of His grace.

In the second paragraph, a non-Calvinist perceives election as a gracious purpose of God which is genuinely offered to all men which is consistent with the “free agency of man” meaning they have the true ability to respond in faith whereby God regenerates them. This glorious display of God’s sovereign “goodness” is unchangeable.

But the Calvinist reads it as those who have been specially pre-selected are elected and this is according to God’s predestinating purpose to which He “then” regenerates them and this procedure is consistent with the free agency because "God is Sovereign”…Booyah! This deterministic doctrine that declares this form of election is consistent with free agency is unchangeable and BTW belief in it excludes boosting and promotes humility!

I think the Articles of Affirmation and Denial do a mighty fine job of clarifying just how far the BF&M should be allowed to be interpreted toward being falsely perceived to promote that the general assembly believes these to have deterministic values which deny free will and thereby the ability for any man to “truly” respond to God’s calling of Grace.

Article Five: The Regeneration of the Sinner​

We affirm that any person who responds to the Gospel with repentance and faith is born again through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is a new creation in Christ and enters, at the moment he believes, into eternal life.

We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.

Luke 15:24; John 3:3; 7:37-39; 10:10; 16:7-14; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:4-11; 10:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20; 6:15; Colossians 2:13; 1 Peter 3:18

Article Six: The Election to Salvation​

We affirm that, in reference to salvation, election speaks of God’s eternal, gracious, and certain plan in Christ to have a people who are His by repentance and faith.

We deny that election means that, from eternity, God predestined certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.

Genesis 1:26-28; 12:1-3; Exodus 19:6; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 24:31; 25:34; John 6:70; 15:16; Romans 8:29-30, 33;9:6-8; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:11-22; 3:1-11; 4:4-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 7:9-10

Article Seven: The Sovereignty of God​

We affirm God’s eternal knowledge of and sovereignty over every person’s salvation or condemnation.

We deny that God’s sovereignty and knowledge require Him to cause a person’s acceptance or rejection of faith in Christ.

Genesis 1:1; 6:5-8; 18:16-33; 22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; 1 Chronicles 29:10-20; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Joel 2:32; Psalm 23; 51:4; 139:1-6; Proverbs 15:3; John 6:44; Romans 11:3; Titus 3:3-7; James 1:13-15; Hebrews 11:6, 12:28; 1 Peter 1:17

Article Eight: The Free Will of Man​

We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an “effectual call” for certain people that is different from a “general call” to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.

Genesis 1:26-28; Numbers 21:8-9; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; 1 Samuel 8:1-22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; Esther 3:12-14; Matthew 7:13-14; 11:20-24; Mark 10:17-22; Luke 9:23-24; 13:34; 15:17-20; Romans 10:9-10; Titus 2:12; Revelation 22:17





Thanks and blessings to the Godly men with the fortitude to stand up against the agendas of those (“New Calvinist”) who would “modify its teachings in order to mitigate certain unacceptable conclusions (e.g., anti-missionism, hyper-Calvinism, double predestination, limited atonement, etc.)." May God strengthen and comfort them as they endeavor in this righteous pursuit to maintain that God’s offer of salvation “truly” extends to all men. Amen.

I can comfortably embrace these statements, and I'm a Calvinist. They're not, so can they?

No, not any longer as they are written for they are being abused and need clarification on these issues in these new times. That's the point!

 

[Winman]

Winman

You are demonstrating your ignorance of Southern Baptists.

Winman,

Once again you are demonstrating your ignorance of the Doctrine of Grace.

And what you are slow to understand (very slow) is that folks DO understand Calvinism and are rejecting it.

You fellas think it is still 1550 and you are in Geneva.

New Calvinism presents us with a duty and an opportunity to more carefully express what is generally believed by Southern Baptists about salvation. It is no longer helpful to identify ourselves by how many points of convergence we have with Calvinism. While we are not insisting that every Southern Baptist affirm the soteriological statement below in order to have a place in the Southern Baptist family, we are asserting that the vast majority of Southern Baptists are not Calvinists and that they do not want Calvinism to become the standard view in Southern Baptist life. We believe it is time to move beyond Calvinism as a reference point for Baptist soteriology.

Regardless of what the SBC believed in the past, now the majority do not hold to a Calvinistic interpretation of the scriptures.

This has nothing to do with me, my church does not belong to the SBC, but from what I have read, I agree with this new "creed" if that is what you want to call it. I believe it is very scriptural.

It really doesn't matter what you or I believe, the SBC has made a stand here.

One thing I will say though, these guys are pretending to be nice. That is not true, they are giving you the boot.

 

[go2church]

This need that SBC leaders have to have an enemy is as striking now as it was 20-30 years ago. Now everyone is trying to claim the title of most traditional. See what happens when you try to out conservative everyone?!!?

 

[glazer1972]

Regardless of what the SBC believed in the past, now the majority do not hold to a Calvinistic interpretation of the scriptures.

Some of us find fault in that.

 

[OldRegular]

Regardless of what the SBC believed in the past, now the majority do not hold to a Calvinistic interpretation of the scriptures.

Winman
You have no idea what the majority of Southern Baptists believe!

It really doesn't matter what you or I believe, the SBC has made a stand here.

One thing I will say though, these guys are pretending to be nice. That is not true, they are giving you the boot.

These people do not speak for the Southern Baptist Convention. That is why I say you are ignorant about the Southern Baptist Convention.

********************************************************************

As to your understanding of the Doctrine of Grace you ignorantly believe that God drags his elect kicking and screaming to Salvation. The work of God the Holy Spirit is to apply the Cross Work of Jesus Christ to the elect. Scripture tells us:

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


John 6:63, KJV
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


John 5:21, KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.


Note, Winman, that the recipient of this Grace, this life, is passive!

Once the Holy Spirit "New Births", regenerates, makes spiritually alive the elect person they exercise their God given faith and respond to the Gospel in Conversion.