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Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement

savedbymercy

New Member
All for whom Christ died, that death reconciled God to them Objectively, but since they are still sinners when born, they need to be reconciled subjectively, they hate God by nature, but God does not hate them, and He has been appeased and reconciled to them.

And so, the promise is , they shall be saved by His [Christ] Life. That means they shall be converted to God subjectively to make all things equal, and they are enabled to Love God back in return. 1 Jn 4:19

We love him, because he first loved us.

Those God Loved, will always be converted to Love Him, thats one of the many accomplishments of the death of Christ, it brings us to God ! 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
This is WHY I am tecnically NOT a strict calvinist, but more an Amyraldism, as hold to Jesus death able to provide atonmemnt for All, BUT God requires us still to place faith in that work in order to get saved, but knowing sinners cannot produce that faith, his election grants us that needed gift of Grace!

So His death did provide specific salvation unto the elect. but also potentially could have saved all...

Makes sense to me.

I’m still apprehensive about stating the atonement apart from the resurrection. I do see the opportunity for everyone to be saved, provided that they believe. But as many will not believe, I suppose in a manner of speaking the atonement is potential.

Based on election, however, it is not really potential because there is no atonement apart from faith. Election is not even potential for the non-elect – so that would make atonement not potential either.

Depends on how one looks at it, and if one actually feels the need to establish a firm doctrine on atonement apart from the completed work of salvation to the believer.

Amyraldianism is a form of Calvinism, and in regards to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Bible, many see it as a more legitimate form of Calvinism. Some view the disagreement of Limited Atonement as a misunderstanding on the part of “strict” Calvinists and consider limited redemption as closer to the third point – while some Calvinists reject this notion.

 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Makes sense to me.

I’m still apprehensive about stating the atonement apart from the resurrection. I do see the opportunity for everyone to be saved, provided that they believe. But as many will not believe, I suppose in a manner of speaking the atonement is potential.

Based on election, however, it is not really potential because there is no atonement apart from faith. Election is not even potential for the non-elect – so that would make atonement not potential either.

Depends on how one looks at it, and if one actually feels the need to establish a firm doctrine on atonement apart from the completed work of salvation to the believer.

Amyraldianism is a form of Calvinism, and in regards to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Bible, many see it as a more legitimate form of Calvinism. Some view the disagreement of Limited Atonement as a misunderstanding on the part of “strict” Calvinists and consider limited redemption as closer to the third point – while some Calvinists reject this notion.


I would like to know why he doesn't agree with Definite atonement....I personally don't understand how the brother can eliminate that from the equation.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I would like to know why he doesn't agree with Definite atonement....I personally don't understand how the brother can eliminate that from the equation.

Not speaking for DaChaser1, but I have difficulty discerning what one believes when we call it definite or limited atonement.

I can see it two ways. First, that definite atonement means Christ came to atone for the sins of only the elect. I agree with this. Some see it as Christ is the atonement for only the sins of the elect. Here I would disagree. Calvin believed the first statement, but not the second. Beza believed both.

Which would you see as definite atonement?
 

DaChaser1

New Member


No, I’m not “kidding” you. (and no, the subject of propitiation is not sin).

“He Himself is the propitiation for our sins”

Propitiation carries the sacrificial imagery from the Old Testament. Sin is not the object of propitiation – Christ is the propitiation for our sins.

In the Old Testament sacrificial system, the offering was made before the Lord as a propitiation: “the priest shall burn it on the alter on top of the offerings made to the Lord by fire. In this way the priest will make atonement for the sinner for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven” (Lev. 4:34). Interestingly enough, in the Old Testament sin is never the subject of propitiation either. Propitiation is the sacrifice which appeases God through which sins are forgiven.

Propitiation is the action of appeasing. Christ did not appease our sins, but was instead the appeasement for our sins.

Like I said (and you confirmed), we are in agreement concerning the elect, the non-elect, and God’s wrath in regards to Christ as the propitiation for our sins. Where we seem to disagree is in examining the biblical texts.

If you don’t have one, I’d suggest purchasing a good interlinear New Testament, a lexicon (I like Perschbacher’s), and a concordance. Choose good commentaries by scholars in the field of hermeneutics. A good one will provide various ways a passage may be interpreted and weigh the strengths and weaknesses of each. Unlike commentaries written by pastors, these attempt to interact with the text apart from theological presuppositions (although many will also offer why they believe a particular interpretation is better). If you do have them, I'd suggest using them. Word studies are not only important, they are also interesting.

I liked the Greek/English internear on software from gramcord by gleason Archer...

1995 Nas/nestle greek text...

Also like the 2 vol commentary set by Moody press, and 2 vol set by DTS!
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I may be wrong, but I think you mean that we were not reconciled to God by the death of Jesus alone…

There are various meanings to reconciliation – Paul insists that reconciliation is a completed and ongoing work of God (Paul speaks of it as having been already accomplished and yet of God continuing to accomplish it right up to the present – 2 Cor 17-20).

Ignore savedbymercy calling you a liar. By his standard and logic, reconciliation was the process of reconciling sin to God – that is how he defines propitiation (sin is its subject) and this is the only logical conclusion that he can make from that definition.

Regardless, many on this site will disagree with you, and I may sometimes disagree with you, but judge people by their fruit – how do they react when they disagree or do not understand your understanding of a particular issue or passage. Even though this is an online forum, the interaction will tell you much about a person.

believe that the death of Christ allows God to reconcile us back to Him, and that FULLY accomplished that, its just he sees us reconciled by that act interdepent of us having to get God to effectually apply that reconciliation towards us BY placing faith in Christ!

the death of jesus is means by which god saves/justifies/reconciles us back, but requires us to place faith in Jesus...

THAT faith itself is the gift of God towards those whom He has elected!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I liked the Greek/English internear on software from gramcord by gleason Archer...

1995 Nas/nestle greek text...

Also like the 2 vol commentary set by Moody press, and 2 vol set by DTS!


I’m going to have to check that out - I think I found it online (is this the one with audio?). I would love to have the Logos program, but apart from all of you BB members making a donation to me – I don’t see that happening (I’m cheap when it comes to software).

I have some as additions to a wordsearch program that I occasionally use, but I find it difficult to study without a “real” book. Guess I’m just old; I usually end up pulling the interlinear off a shelf.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I would like to know why he doesn't agree with Definite atonement....I personally don't understand how the brother can eliminate that from the equation.

Jesus died in a definite fashion to save the elct of God, but Hps death was sufficient to be able to pay for sins of all...

jesus died to save JSUT His elect, but was able to save all the rest IF they would come to him, but ONLY the elect of God will come to Him!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jesus died in a definite fashion to save the elct of God, but Hps death was sufficient to be able to pay for sins of all...

jesus died to save JSUT His elect, but was able to save all the rest IF they would come to him, but ONLY the elect of God will come to Him!

:thumbs:

I agree – the atonement was eternally sufficient. Atonement can be limited to those who believe, but Christ is eternal and it is unbiblical to limit the sufficiency of his death.

Christ came to save only those who would believe, all could be saved if they would believe, but only the elect would believe – faith is of God and not by works (as you have pointed out).
 

savedbymercy

New Member
:thumbs:

I agree – the atonement was eternally sufficient. Atonement can be limited to those who believe, but Christ is eternal and it is unbiblical to limit the sufficiency of his death.

Christ came to save only those who would believe, all could be saved if they would believe, but only the elect would believe – faith is of God and not by works (as you have pointed out).

Christ's Death was meted out in proportion for those He definitely died for, their sins ! Paul said, speaking of the Church, how that Christ died for OUR sins !

1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

To suggest that it could have, saved anymore for whom it was intended is disrespectful and impious to God !

The High Priest of Israel would have been struck down if he would have even attempted to think the Blood of Atonement was for any other people besides Israel back in the Old Testament. He was only to Confess the sins of Israel Lev 16:21

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

The egyptians just could not have just decided to have their sins also atoned for on the day of atonement, as if they had a choice in the matter !
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Christ's Death was meted out in proportion for those He definitely died for, their sins ! Paul said, speaking of the Church, how that Christ died for OUR sins !

1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

To suggest that it could have, saved anymore for whom it was intended is disrespectful and impious to God !

The High Priest of Israel would have been struck down if he would have even attempted to think the Blood of Atonement was for any other people besides Israel back in the Old Testament. He was only to Confess the sins of Israel Lev 16:21

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

The egyptians just could not have just decided to have their sins also atoned for on the day of atonement, as if they had a choice in the matter !

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

The “our” is Paul’s audience (some who may have believed in vain). Yet Christ died for us. Before you start turning this around to make some crazy remark – this verse does not say that everyone is saved or even that Christ atoned for the sins of everyone. Of course, as far as I know you are the only one who keeps bringing that up so you can say “Liar!...False Doctrine!...Lost in Space!..etc).

To suggest that men cannot be saved because all of Jesus’ blood was proportioned out to the elect is to introduce foreign doctrine into Christianity. It reflects not only a lack of understanding of Christ as the atoning sacrifice, but also of the Old Covenant sacrificial system.

The suggestion that more men could have been saved if God were just a little greater is heretical. God chooses who to save, he is not insufficient in the means. God is eternally sufficient, and Christ work on the cross is eternally sufficient.

1. You misuse and misinterpret 1 Cor 15:3

2. Lev 16:21 does not support the idea that the high priest of Israel would have been struck down if he thought the blood of atonement was for any other people besides Israel

3. Numbers 15:26 states that the sacrifice system also atoned for the “alien who sojourns among them.”

4. While your first statement introduces foreign doctrine into Christianity, it is the only one that has anything to do with the post.



We will never agree on interpretation because you seem to look to the Bible to support your understanding rather than deriving your understanding from the Bible. What saddens me most is that we actually hold to much the same doctrine (except I do reject the idea that Christ was insufficient in any manner or form to include His work on the Cross).

We do not have the same regard for Scripture. There is no need for you to post anything of me, or ask anything of me, because we will not see eye to eye until you place the Word of God above your understanding. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but in this type of forum I do not have time for people who disregard or misrepresent Scripture because, to me, it is disregarding and misrepresenting God. If we disagree, let it be a disagreement in our interpretion or reasoning - I can live with that. The Word of God is the standard for this type of argument - NOT your reasoning.
 
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savedbymercy

New Member
jonc

The “our” is Paul’s audience

Yes, and who was that ? 1 Cor 1:1-2

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: as in Our Sins 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Again, you show you reject scripture and have created your man made doctrine, God is Judging you for that right now, because you believe a lie !
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
jonc



Yes, and who was that ? 1 Cor 1:1-2

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: as in Our Sins 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Again, you show you reject scripture and have created your man made doctrine, God is Judging you for that right now, because you believe a lie !

Yes, who was that? The letter is written to the Chruch of God which is at Corinith, to those who in every place call on the name of the Lord. But we were talking about the "us" in chapter 15, were we not?

I'll assume that you are correct - lets see how it goes. We'll just call us "the elect" and substitute "the elect" for these references.

Now I make known to you (the elect), the gospel which I preached to you (the elect), inwhich also you stand (the elect), by which also you (the elect) are saved IF you (the elect) hold fast to the word which I preach to you (the elect), unless you (the elect) believed in vain.

You are stating that Paul is telling the elect that they are saved if they believe, and if they hold fast to the gospel. If not they (the elect) are not saved, they have believed in vain. The moral of the story is that you cannot reach back 15 Chapters to define "us."

savedbymercy, this is where our interaction comes to an end. I have struggled with your “faith” as exhibited by your interactions on this board. If I wanted to engage these types of questions and issues in a secular environment, I would not have gone to a “Christian” board.You have called people liars, misrepresented what they said, accused them of teaching false doctrine, and blatantly misrepresented scripture in order to make a point. You have set people up, taken one part of what they said, to present their views as wrong and make an argument for you to attack. You have shown absolutely no love and no understanding.

I do not know your faith. I do not know if you are saved. One cannot know that of another. It is not for your doctrine (Christians can have diverse understandings), but because of your attitude and comments to others on this board that I personally have difficulty reconciling your words with Christ. Apart from your claims to be saved, it would not be evident by your interactions here. Your lack of Christian character is offensive, but as we interact I find myself becoming more argumentative toward you. As I will accept you are a brother in Christ based on your claim alone, I genuinely hope for you the best, but at the same time need to distance myself from your rhetoric. If we were to continue, I fear that I would be disregarding Eph. 4:16 and in that regards be equal to you in this matter.

I have prayed for you, that if you are not saved God will draw you unto Himself. That if you are saved, He will open your eyes and heart so that you can genuinely contribute to the work that is Christ Jesus instead of attacking brothers and sisters who disagree with your interpretations. I do not care if you agree with my theology, that does not matter and that is not the point. Please remember that every Christian you meet here or elsewhere has been redeemed by the blood of Christ. Post your views and disagree, but when you attack as you have, you are attacking the body of Christ.
 
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DaChaser1

New Member
I’m going to have to check that out - I think I found it online (is this the one with audio?). I would love to have the Logos program, but apart from all of you BB members making a donation to me – I don’t see that happening (I’m cheap when it comes to software).

I have some as additions to a wordsearch program that I occasionally use, but I find it difficult to study without a “real” book. Guess I’m just old; I usually end up pulling the interlinear off a shelf.

Check out gramcord site for the Dr Archer software!

Also check out 'the Word/e bible!"
 

savedbymercy

New Member
ANY NT voice supporting one can get saved By God apart from faith in Christ?

One is Saved by Christ's Blood period ! Anything else man adds with that, is works. Pleanty of scripture support Justifcation before God without Faith. Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
DaChaser1

I checked out the program, by the way, and am planning on ordering the software. It looks interesting. – thanks for the reference.
 
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savedbymercy

New Member
jonc

You can say that salvation is by faith through grace, it is a work of God and not of man

If you believe that then do you believe everyone is saved by Grace through Faith, a work of God and not of man ? If not then why not ?
 
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