37818
Well-Known Member
#88
The man Jesus was a mortal until after He physically died and arose as an immortal man, Hebrews 13:8.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Adam versus believers
- Thread starter Agent47
- Start date
- Status
"JonC,
You were wrong then and are wrong now.
You can offer your condescending comment, but it is clear to me you are the proud owner of many theological error that show you do not know what you do not know.,although you seem to speak as if you see yourself as an oracle.
Nothing is over my head, and this accusation you use against many of us has been shown to be in vain.
You have in times past denied such a change.
You have denied that Adam had life. both physical life, and spiritual life.
You have suggested that only physical death was certain. You then redefine spiritual death as not having life.
Was Adam born with spiritual life before the fall?
This is not the issue.We are speaking of Adam prefall.
Are you saying he had a spirit that was not alive?
This vaguely worded statement does not get it done.In what exact way did spiritual death become a reality?
Did Adam have spiritual life, that died on that day?
In what exact way did it become a reality for ADAM?
How was the relationship between God and Adam severed?
What do you mean by cast out of God's presence?
Adams physical death would be certain...what died in that day as God told Him would happen?
Have you changed your view since Biblicist and Martin called you on this?
Here is your own words on this;
So is this still your idea on this?
Nothing is being decontextualized,I gave the links.
New posters are here. You invoked my name when I had not commented anything about eternal life....so I wanted to show others how you word things trying to keep a loophole handy in case someone zeroed in on your ideas. I do not care for your posts as I find nothing of value in them
I will not be looking to interact with you much as your responses are not clear.
[QUOTE]I do not do that to you and it is dishonest of you to do that with others[/QUOTE]
That is mostly what you have done with me and others. I can fill a thread with direct quotes, or thread links showing such things. If any one wants examples of this They can pm to me and I can supply them.
I have better things to do then refute your strange and elusive posts.
i did it here because you keep using my name, but I am moving on.
You were wrong then and are wrong now.
.
You can offer your condescending comment, but it is clear to me you are the proud owner of many theological error that show you do not know what you do not know.,although you seem to speak as if you see yourself as an oracle.
Nothing is over my head, and this accusation you use against many of us has been shown to be in vain.
yes it did...now let's look at your vague statement a bit closer.Sin does separate man from God, but the issue is what change happened in Adam that was past on to the human race?
You have in times past denied such a change.
You have denied that Adam had life. both physical life, and spiritual life.
You have suggested that only physical death was certain. You then redefine spiritual death as not having life.
Was Adam born with spiritual life before the fall?
This is not the issue.We are speaking of Adam prefall.
Are you saying he had a spirit that was not alive?
This vaguely worded statement does not get it done.In what exact way did spiritual death become a reality?
Did Adam have spiritual life, that died on that day?
In what exact way did it become a reality for ADAM?
How was the relationship between God and Adam severed?
What do you mean by cast out of God's presence?
Adams physical death would be certain...what died in that day as God told Him would happen?
Have you changed your view since Biblicist and Martin called you on this?
Here is your own words on this;
So is this still your idea on this?
Nothing is being decontextualized,I gave the links.
New posters are here. You invoked my name when I had not commented anything about eternal life....so I wanted to show others how you word things trying to keep a loophole handy in case someone zeroed in on your ideas. I do not care for your posts as I find nothing of value in them
I will not be looking to interact with you much as your responses are not clear.
[QUOTE]I do not do that to you and it is dishonest of you to do that with others[/QUOTE]
That is mostly what you have done with me and others. I can fill a thread with direct quotes, or thread links showing such things. If any one wants examples of this They can pm to me and I can supply them.
I have better things to do then refute your strange and elusive posts.
i did it here because you keep using my name, but I am moving on.
I did use your name, but not out of the blue.
My issue with your post is not what you believe but the fact that you have misrepresented what I believe (you actually made a false statement):
The point, of course, being that I never denied that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. I never denied that there was one point in time when the reality of spiritual death entered the whole human race.
You are welcome to your misunderstandings....believe what you will, who cares.... but there are new posters here and you need to be a little more honest when dealing with other people's post. I welcome disagreement but never dishonesty.
So for the new members, rest assured that @Iconoclast has made very false and misleading statements. As many can attest, this is most likely due to ignorance and a lack of understanding rather than malice. He often is traveling and skims over posts rather quickly, so errors are to be expected.
For a discussion of the topic of his confusion (ontological vs relational spiritual life) we would need to start another thread. But the gist of it is that I agree Adam was spiritually alive and died spiritually relationally (Adam was in a relationship with God and that relationship was torn apart, mankind as a whole inheriting that spiritual death) while I disagree that Adam was spiritually alive ontologically (that Adam was sealed with the indwelling of the Spirit of God and "in Christ", Christ "in him").
@Iconoclast is being a little dishonest and playing a decontextualization game (a shell game) because he is taking my comments about spiritual life being sealed with the Spirit and applying it to the agreed upon definition of being in fellowship with God. But again, his dishonesty is most likely out of an inability to grasp the differences and the arguments being presented on those threads. I do not think he is intentionally lying, just carelessly and partly out of ignorance providing false information. He means well, I suppose.
My argument then and now is that Adam was in fellowship with God/ in a right relationship (spiritual life) and experienced spiritual death (a separation from God) when he sinned. That was the point of the Garden. Adam dwelt in the presence of God and in a right relationship with God (spiritual life). God created Adam "upright". And when Adam sinned this relationship was torn apart (spiritual death). This spiritual death became a reality for Adam and for the whole of mankind. The certainty of physical death also became a reality. Adam did not die when he sinned physically (but I think an argument could be made the process of death began). But Adam did experience that breaking of fellowship (spiritual death) when he sinned.
Where I disagreed with many was that I believe Adam was not "in Christ" and "sealed by the Spirit". I believe this is post-resurrection and a New Covenant promise. I pointed to Isaiah and God saying he would give man a new spirit and to Jesus being the Firstborn of many breather.
You are missing the fact there were two definitions being contrasted - one relational and one ontological. You misunderstood.
You can say I am wrong, but that does not make it so.
If Adam did not experience this spiritual death (this separation from God) and we do not inherit this separation (this "spiritual death") then why on earth do you think Jesus died?
just saw this.
Iconoclast is being 100% honest .
John has modified his view now which is good.
if anyone cares I will look up several archived posts to show it.
Mostly no one cares.
In time you will see it for yourself as some have already seen it.
I personally have better things to do, but if anyone wants to see who is being truthful, and who is accusing we can do that for you.
Biblicist taught John these things he posts here.
Glad Biblicists effort was not in vain.
John denied these things for the last few years.
Perhaps he has learned truth on this now
You are lying (yes, I called you a liar on the open forum).
The reason is you know (unless you are a complete fool, which is also possible) that you have no right or basis to tell me what I believe or that I changed my view.
I did not change my view. Apparently you never grasped my previous comments.
My position on this topic has NEVER changed.
Folks,
No person has the right to tell another person what that other person believes.
Speak for YOUR beliefs and allow others to speak for theirs.
This is a Christian forum. Christians do not bear false witness against other believers (,or anyone else, for that matter).
If you do not understand something then ask for clarification. Do not just assume and let that assumption make a liar out of you.
No person has the right to tell another person what that other person believes.
Speak for YOUR beliefs and allow others to speak for theirs.
This is a Christian forum. Christians do not bear false witness against other believers (,or anyone else, for that matter).
If you do not understand something then ask for clarification. Do not just assume and let that assumption make a liar out of you.
"Look how many billions have gone to hell in allowing them to live. "
Name one.
You can be sinless. It is an open and achievable possibility. But being sinless doesn't save anyone.
1 Corinthians 4
3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
Why do I need to name one? And why respond to my post and refuse to answer my questions in that post, but then ask of me questions?
Concerning sinlessness being possible and that it doesn't save any one....so? What is your point in light of what I said.
Good verse. It adds nothing to what you said.
Quantrill
Refuse? You said consider those questions. They have been considered.
You said billions are in hell. I'd say valid question. Since you make it as some factual point to take into account.
The point I'm making final judgement hasn't been rendered to make that call.
" Is there, or was there, any doubt that God would not save Adam and Eve? And, why should He? I mean they were just two people. Why not destroy them and make two others? "
Education, Mercy, Kindness. Since God is not a jerk the question of expecting him to be one only comes from the camp that judges being good as a chore, sin is just a perk, and God has a license to be EVIL. Thats why he can author and ordain evil.
Your 'point' that final judgement hasn't been rendered doesn't discard the fact that many will go to hell or the Lake of Fire.
(Matt. 7:13-14) "...wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat....straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
That is a factual point to take into account.
Quantrill
No. He was not "born of God," as are believers, and was not made a "partaker of the divine nature."
He was created good. But he was not created incorruptible. Corruption set in when he believed the lie that he would "not surely die," and as a corrupt man can do no good, he could do nothing but disobey and eat of the fruit that he was commanded not to eat.
I have not read t he pages and pages of this thread, but I did read the OP, and several valid rebuttals of the underlying premise.
Just one small point of difference. Adam was spiritually alive in that he was holy and was together with God. But he was not under the New Covenant, and its provision of "eternal life." Thus Adam (and Eve) lost their holiness and therefore were separated from God and that caused their spiritual death.
Please carry on....
Just one small point of difference. Adam was spiritually alive in that he was holy and was together with God. But he was not under the New Covenant, and its provision of "eternal life." Thus Adam (and Eve) lost their holiness and therefore were separated from God and that caused their spiritual death.
Please carry on....
Psalms 51:5 was passed on to mankind.
In as many words sin caused spiritual death but a spiritually alive believer can't be kill d by sin?
The man who was made lower than angels is Jesus Christ, and it speaks of his humility
He had no eternal life because he died.
Ok
A creature can't die unless it is alive in the first place.
In what sense was Adam alive prior to his Fall?
What is scriptures referring to when Paul says death came through one man?
Romans 5:12-13 (KJV)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
- Status