• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

Status
Not open for further replies.

MB

Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalms 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:12 (KJV) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

What you don't see is that the underlined verse was what a fool said in his heart. He also said there is no God in Ps. 14 No where in romans does it ever say that this is the state of an lost man. Paul quoted this verse to show what a lost person says in his heart about God and His follwers. Of course what the lost man or fool said is his own idea because he doesn't wish to admit that there is even a god. He simply has not heard the gospel yet.
I thought similar thoughts myself before I was saved.
To prove it isn't a true statement from the fool. At the time David who wrote this Psalm had sought God. He was called a man after God's own heart. There many men who had sought God.
There is no way this passage can support an imagined concept from scripture such as total depravity.

The other two verses are merely stating men are sinful, not unable to respond to the gospel.
MB
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
No one has been judged as a man but are condemned already so clearly Adam's sin does not cause us to sin. All are sinners but it is not Adam's cause.
 

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What you don't see is that the underlined verse was what a fool said in his heart. He also said there is no God in Ps. 14 No where in romans does it ever say that this is the state of an lost man. Paul quoted this verse to show what a lost person says in his heart about God and His follwers. Of course what the lost man or fool said is his own idea because he doesn't wish to admit that there is even a god. He simply has not heard the gospel yet.
I thought similar thoughts myself before I was saved.
To prove it isn't a true statement from the fool. At the time David who wrote this Psalm had sought God. He was called a man after God's own heart. There many men who had sought God.
There is no way this passage can support an imagined concept from scripture such as total depravity.

The other two verses are merely stating men are sinful, not unable to respond to the gospel.
MB

BFM 2000 says that Salvation is because of grace.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
I believe Grace can only come through Faith Eph 2:8 With out Faith there can be no Grace.
MB
can I object?
Grace is universal, Christs death and payment for sin in universal, Faith has been given proportionally to us, individually Yet we must also exercise faith as an individual to accept the universal Salvation and Grace
 

MB

Well-Known Member
can I object?
Grace is universal, Christs death and payment for sin in universal, Faith has been given proportionally to us, individually Yet we must also exercise faith as an individual to accept the universal Salvation and Grace
I can't agree to Salvation being universal. That would mean everyone would be saved. While it sounds wonderful it's just not reality. Not everyone will be saved Just those who have faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Catholicism is universal for example. Salvation is personal.
MB
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
I can't agree to Salvation being universal. That would mean everyone would be saved. While it sounds wonderful it's just not reality. Not everyone will be saved Just those who have faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Catholicism is universal for example. Salvation is personal.
MB

perhaps you are right. We agree, All could be saved but many wont, God is capable and not willing that any should perish
The result of Faith in a capable willing God is personal. The opportunity must be universal
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is totally wrong and intentionally misleading .Read the chapter of Romans 9 you will see the comparison that by one all may be affected as Adam sin affected the WORLD, Yet by one man a system of Salvation exists. One may effect many.
We are not forced to sin, as we are not forced to be saved

The Law "made" or declared us to be sinners, even though man was already sinful, No law no knowledge of sin.

So how were "made sinners" if there was no law until Moses?

All men have sinned yet it is not the same event as Adam's sin that affect the physical world
We suffer because of Adams sin, We do not continue in sin because of Adam

So Ezekiel is correct, Inherited sin debt does not exist, We each are responsible for ourselves. Sin is not physical but spiritual, as Jesus said
You have a system you are trying to defend. Put the system aside and practice exegetical based exposition. This text does not say that Adam's sin "affected" the world. It says by one man's sin many were "MADE sinners." This text does not say Adam's sin "affected" the world, it says by one man's sin many were "condemned." This text does not say Adam's sin "affected" the world, it says by one man's sin "many be dead."

His argument is simple. The period between between Adam and Moses everyone died as the last words in every geneology is "and he died." Hence, death cannot be ascribed to violating the Mosaci law by adults and it can't be ascribed to violating the law of conscience by infants. Only one law existed in this time period that could justify universal death - the law found in Genesis 2:17 broken by "one man" and it is this singular sin that made "many sinners" many "condemned" many "be dead".

The whole undivided human nature existed and acted as one man in Adam and that is why death can be justly "passed" down to all partakers of that human nature through procreation.

That is why "death" can occur in the womb prior to any willful action by the infant. That infant was "in Adam" when Adam sinned, just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithe to Melchisedek.

Your system of soteriology is based on pure eisegesis not exegesis.
 
Last edited:

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God is still Spirit and Calvinist all have said that we can only respond Spiritually and that fallen man is incapable of communicating with God because they are Spiritually dead. Now you say God was physcial and is why Adam could hear God. God Him self never appeared physically to man not even Moses. Infact No man has seen God and lived. Yet for this instance you insist that God appeared physically in order to talk with Adam. Show scripture where it says God was physical when talking with Adam.
Your kicking a dead horse! This was the Son of God "walking" in the Garden thus making a visible appearance as he has done throughout the Old Testament in many places. He appeared in a physical manifestation to Abraham along with two angels in human appearance. It is called a "theophany." Your view is explicitly repudiated by Scripture in the clearest possible language (Rom.5:12 and Genesis 2:13). Give it up!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
perhaps you are right. We agree, All could be saved but many wont, God is capable and not willing that any should perish
The result of Faith in a capable willing God is personal. The opportunity must be universal
You could say that The opportunity is available to all.
MB
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
You have a system you are trying to defend. Put the system aside and practice exegetical based exposition. This text does not say that Adam's sin "affected" the world. It says by one man's sin many were "MADE sinners." This text does not say Adam's sin "affected" the world, it says by one man's sin many were "condemned." This text does not say Adam's sin "affected" the world, it says by one man's sin "many be dead."

His argument is simple. The period between between Adam and Moses everyone died as the last words in every geneology is "and he died." Hence, death cannot be ascribed to violating the Mosaci law by adults and it can't be ascribed to violating the law of conscience by infants. Only one law existed in this time period that could justify universal death - the law found in Genesis 2:17 broken by "one man" and it is this singular sin that made "many sinners" many "condemned" many "be dead".

The whole undivided human nature existed and acted as one man in Adam and that is why death can be justly "passed" down to all partakers of that human nature through procreation.

That is why "death" can occur in the womb prior to any willful action by the infant. That infant was "in Adam" when Adam sinned, just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithe to Melchisedek.

Your system of soteriology is based on pure eisegesis not exegesis.

definately not, It is not" made" as in created It is eiserchomai or kathistēmi
  1. to come
    1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
  2. metaph.
    1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
  3. to go, to follow one
kathistēmi

to set, place, put

  1. to set one over a thing (in charge of it)

  2. to appoint one to administer an office

  3. to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

  4. to constitute, to render, make, cause to be

  5. to conduct or bring to a certain place

  6. to show or exhibit one's self

    1. come forward as
neither word has Adam's sin create sin in us


No, between Adam and Moses there was no Law to be judged by , no standard of conduct
Rom 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
yet we were considered sinners for all have sinned.

comparing Adam affect on the world to Jesus's

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18


Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So the chapter does not show the reason for sin in Adam but that sin of one affects many
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Your kicking a dead horse! This was the Son of God "walking" in the Garden thus making a visible appearance as he has done throughout the Old Testament in many places. He appeared in a physical manifestation to Abraham along with two angels in human appearance. It is called a "theophany." Your view is explicitly repudiated by Scripture in the clearest possible language (Rom.5:12 and Genesis 2:13). Give it up!
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him..
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
I'm sure you are mistaken.
MB
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
definately not, It is not" made" as in created It is eiserchomai or kathistēmi
  1. to come
    1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
  2. metaph.
    1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
  3. to go, to follow one
kathistēmi

to set, place, put




    • to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
    • to appoint one to administer an office
    • to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
    • to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
    • to conduct or bring to a certain place
    • to show or exhibit one's self
      1. come forward as
neither word has Adam's sin create sin in us

If that phrase were alone without other plainly stated contextual descriptives you might have possible grounds for your objection. However, it is not found alone but it is in connection with previous statements that repeat "by one man's disobedience" not only were many man constituted sinners but "condemned" and and "be dead". All of these must be considered together because they are inseparably related to each other and justified by "one man's disobedience" rather than any personal disobediences on their part.

There is no justification for individual "condemnation" or "be dead" if not for the fact they were "made sinners" due to one man's sin. You cannot separate these from each other and your problem is AT BIRTH all of these are present as you very well know infants are subject to death IN THE WOMB before being able to commit any individualized sin(s). Your view makes a mockery out of Paul's repeated sole grounds for all these things which is "by one man's disobedience" rather than anything found in his descendants.

There is no justification for "condemnation...be dead....made sinners" other than the very same thing Paul repeats over and over "by one man's disobedience" thus repudiating any causes or grounds of justification found in these individuals or in whatever sins they might do after birth.

It is not a PERSON that is being described but "death." Second, it is not found in the future tense thus referring to future sins men might do, but it is aorist tense which agrees in tense with "sinned" as an already completed action.




No, between Adam and Moses there was no Law to be judged by , no standard of conduct
Rom 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
yet we were considered sinners for all have sinned.

First, sin is the transgression of the law - not merely Mosaic law as John 3:6 does not say "Mosaic law" or "the law of Moses." There is also the law of conscience (Rom. 2:15) but neither of these laws can explain UNIVERSAL death between Adam and Moses as infants do not violate the law of conscience when they suffer death in the womb and adults do not violate the Mosaic law as it did not exist in this period. However, there is one law that did exist and does explain UNIVERSAL death during this period and that is the law of Genesis 2:17. Paul said "in Adam all die" and that is due to being in UNION with the Adamic human nature and that whole of human nature existed and acted in an undivided state "in Adam" when Adam sinned.

Moreover, Paul does not use the future tense in romans 5:12 as in "SHALL enter" or "SHALL pass upon" or "all men SHALL sin" but he uses the same Aorist tense used behind "sinned" showing simeltaneous completed action with all these verbs. At the completed point of sin, death entered at that point in time and at that same point in time death "passed" upon men because at that same point in time when Adam sinned "all have sinned" and he reasserts this over and over in verses 15-19 by repeatedly saying "by one man's disobedience many "be dead....condemned....made sinners" thus repudiating completely any exposition that would claim Adam's sin merely "affected" all men actually constituted them as justly "condemned" justly "be dead" spiritually and justly "made sinners" by that one action by one man.


For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18


Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So the chapter does not show the reason for sin in Adam but that sin of one affects many

Here are two men representing two different groups of people. All human beings were created "in Adam" but not all human beings are created "in Christ" but all who are supernaturally created in Christ" receive him. All mankind is NATURALLY born "in Adam" but not all mankind is NATURALLY born "in Christ." Being "in Christ is by SUPERNATURAL birth (Eph. 2:10). This is the meaning of John 1:10-13 where universal rejection by Jews and by Gentiles is asserted in John 1:9-11 thus NOBODY RECEIVED HIM. Those who do receive him is due to supernatural birth not by the will of man - Jn. 1:12-13. Verse 12 asserts the human response while verse 13 provides the divine cause for that response because naturally no man receives him (vv. 8-11).

Don't you believe that human beings are sinners by nature when born? If not, then explain why they are subject to "death" which is the "condemnation" for violating law (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12).
 
Last edited:

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him..
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
I'm sure you are mistaken.
MB
Don't you distinguish between the persons of the Godhead? No man has seen the Father or the Holy Spirit but men have seen God the Son. Not merely by incarnation but by pre-incarnate manifestations as did Gideon and Abraham and Daniel as Daniel explicitly states that the fourth man in the furnance that he SAW with his own eyes was the Son of Man - God the Son.

Doesn't it even bother you a little bit that your interpretation is flatly repudiated by these texts in the clearest possible language (rom. 5:12; Gen. 2:17) and yet you keep on kicking this dead horse trying to get it to live????
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
If that phrase were alone without other plainly stated contextual descriptives you might have possible grounds for your objection. However, it is not found alone but it is in connection with previous statements that repeat "by one man's disobedience" not only were many man constituted sinners but "condemned" and and "be dead". All of these must be considered together because they are inseparably related to each other and justified by "one man's disobedience" rather than any personal disobediences on their part.

There is no justification for individual "condemnation" or "be dead" if not for the fact they were "made sinners" due to one man's sin. You cannot separate these from each other and your problem is AT BIRTH all of these are present as you very well know infants are subject to death IN THE WOMB before being able to commit any individualized sin(s). Your view makes a mockery out of Paul's repeated sole grounds for all these things which is "by one man's disobedience" rather than anything found in his descendants.

There is no justification for "condemnation...be dead....made sinners" other than the very same thing Paul repeats over and over "by one man's disobedience" thus repudiating any causes or grounds of justification found in these individuals or in whatever sins they might do after birth.

It is not a PERSON that is being described but "death." Second, it is not found in the future tense thus referring to future sins men might do, but it is aorist tense which agrees in tense with "sinned" as an already completed action.






First, sin is the transgression of the law - not merely Mosaic law as John 3:6 does not say "Mosaic law" or "the law of Moses." There is also the law of conscience (Rom. 2:15) but neither of these laws can explain UNIVERSAL death between Adam and Moses as infants do not violate the law of conscience when they suffer death in the womb and adults do not violate the Mosaic law as it did not exist in this period. However, there is one law that did exist and does explain UNIVERSAL death during this period and that is the law of Genesis 2:17. Paul said "in Adam all die" and that is due to being in UNION with the Adamic human nature and that whole of human nature existed and acted in an undivided state "in Adam" when Adam sinned.

Moreover, Paul does not use the future tense in romans 5:12 as in "SHALL enter" or "SHALL pass upon" or "all men SHALL sin" but he uses the same Aorist tense used behind "sinned" showing simeltaneous completed action with all these verbs. At the completed point of sin, death entered at that point in time and at that same point in time death "passed" upon men because at that same point in time when Adam sinned "all have sinned" and he reasserts this over and over in verses 15-19 by repeatedly saying "by one man's disobedience many "be dead....condemned....made sinners" thus repudiating completely any exposition that would claim Adam's sin merely "affected" all men actually constituted them as justly "condemned" justly "be dead" spiritually and justly "made sinners" by that one action by one man.



Here are two men representing two different groups of people. All human beings were created "in Adam" but not all human beings are created "in Christ" but all who are supernaturally created in Christ" receive him. All mankind is NATURALLY born "in Adam" but not all mankind is NATURALLY born "in Christ." Being "in Christ is by SUPERNATURAL birth (Eph. 2:10). This is the meaning of John 1:10-13 where universal rejection by Jews and by Gentiles is asserted in John 1:9-11 thus NOBODY RECEIVED HIM. Those who do receive him is due to supernatural birth not by the will of man - Jn. 1:12-13. Verse 12 asserts the human response while verse 13 provides the divine cause for that response because naturally no man receives him (vv. 8-11).

Don't you believe that human beings are sinners by nature when born? If not, then explain why they are subject to "death" which is the "condemnation" for violating law (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12).


We are sinners not by anything physical but spiritual . The physical does cannot sin. The spiritual does, according to Jesus.
and EZEKIEL 18. This negates your position of blaming Adam for all your sin

How am I condemned ?

Jhn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 
Last edited:

MB

Well-Known Member
We are sinners not by anything physical but spiritual . The physical does cannot sin. The spiritual does, according to Jesus.
and EZEKIEL 18. This negates you position of blaming Adam for all your sin

How am I condemned ?

Jhn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Because of Adam's sin death entered the world. There was no death before this. We all die in fact we are appointed to die once, because death entered the world. The second death we can avoid by believing in Christ.
I do not believe we cease to exist when we die. Death is merely a separation from God .Paul said absent from the body present with the Lord.
MB
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We are sinners not by anything physical but spiritual . The physical does cannot sin. The spiritual does, according to Jesus.
and EZEKIEL 18. This negates your position of blaming Adam for all your sin

Yes, sin is manifested of being spiritually dead but all mankind are by nature (material and immaterial human nature) "in Adam" and that is why "all in Adam die" because death is inseparable from being "in Adam." The physical and spiritual aspects of human nature cannot be separated from Adam and the absolute proof is infants are subject to death in the womb and the only justifiable basis for being subject to death which is the condemnation of the law is that they are born sinners by nature - meaning their immaterial nature is born "dead in tresspasses and sins" even though their physical bodies are alive and they manifest that sinful nature as soon as they are capable of expression.

How am I condemned ?

Jhn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You miss the point. They are "condemned already" and Paul tells you explicitly why they are "condemned already" due to "one man's disobedience" NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR INDIVIDUAL SINS as these are but manifestations of "being evil" by nature from birth. They do not sin to become sinner but they are already "made sinners" by nature, already "condemned" and already "dead" BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE.

THEY ARE BORN IN UNBELIEF BECAUSE "BEING EVIL" BY NATURE.

Your view is simply false and based completely and entirely upon misuse of scripture.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The natural flow and natural explanation of Romans 5:12-19 is that condemnation upon the whole human race occurred at one point in time (Gen. 2:17) by the actions of one man (Rom. 5:12,17-19) and that is why Death can precede any individual actions by Adam's posterity to merit death. Meriting death was due to one man's act of disobedience.

All interpretative theories that deny this must repudiate Paul's repeated statement that "condemnation....be dead....made sinners" of many are not due to their own individual acts of sin but due soley to "one man's disobedience." They must repudiate Paul's words because their view demands that every man is judged solely by his own actions, is condemned by his own actions and "be dead" due to his own actions and are "made sinners" due to his own actions which Paul repudiates but claims their sins are but consquences (including unbelief) are consequences of being "condemned already" "dead" already "made sinners" already due to one man's sin.

Romans 5:12 makes this assertion by using the same aorist tense for all verbs (entered...passed....sinned") showing inseparable simeltaneous action demanding the undivided human nature was condemned, dead and made sin at that point in time and therefore all mankind who are but products of that fallen nature are born sinners by nature, born spiritually dead, born condemned and thus justly subject to death from conception apart from any sinful deeds of their own.

Romans 5:13-14 proves this is true by eliminating all laws but Genesis 2:17 that can explain universal death.

Romans 5:15-19 proves this by clearly and explicitly and repeatedly saying that this condemnation, deadness, sinfulness of many has its cause in one man's disobedience and not their own sins plural.

Case closed!
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Adam was a man, I am a man. Who condemned me?

Jesus said
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

and
Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

How is it that Adam and I were condemned as sinners, We are sinners. Who condemned us and How are we as men judged and condemned?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top