All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

[percho]

The Biblicist said

The natural flow and natural explanation of Romans 5:12-19 is that condemnation upon the whole human race occurred at one point in time (Gen. 2:17) by the actions of one man (Rom. 5:12,17-19) and that is why Death can precede any individual actions by Adam's posterity to merit death. Meriting death was due to one man's act of disobedience.

I agree with that and will go so far as to say that for the purpose of God It had to be introduced by the very first man, otherwise the obedience of one would have been Adam and there would have been no need for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[loDebar]

Could you rephrase the question, please?

If I was not a man when judged and condemned, what was I? We know i was a sinner

 

[37818]

The devil had the power of the death.

I agree with you. When did he get that power? How did it come to him? Does 1 John 3:8 tell us?

Good questions. Jesus tells us that the devil was a murderer from the begining (John 8:44) and we understand he murdered Adam and Eve with his lie (Genesis 3:4). We are told that the Devil had the power of death (Hebrews 2:14). Jesus taught that Hell, which we know is the second death was made for the Devil and the Devil's followers (Matthew 25:41). In 1 John 3:8 I do not see this to tell use when the Devil acquired the power of death. We know the Devil and death will be destoryed (Revelation 20:10; Revelation 20:14).

 

[loDebar]

Good questions. Jesus tells us that the devil was a murderer from the begining (John 8:44) and we understand he murdered Adam and Eve with his lie (Genesis 3:4). We are told that the Devil had the power of death (Hebrews 2:14). Jesus taught that Hell, which we know is the second death was made for the Devil and the Devil's followers (Matthew 25:41). In 1 John 3:8 I do not see this to tell use when the Devil acquired the power of death. We know the Devil and death will be destoryed (Revelation 20:10; Revelation 20:14).

He had power as an Archangel but misused it . His power comes from God and can only act with God's permission. He only continues to exist due to God's mercy

 

[MB]

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalms 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:12 (KJV) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

None of this proves total depravity which is claimed disables men from seeking God. keeps him from hearing and seeing the truth. I know man is a sinful creature I admit this However this does not prevent men from being saved.
MB

 

[37818]

He had power as an Archangel but misused it . His power comes from God and can only act with God's permission. He only continues to exist due to God's mercy

Never was an Archangar. There has been no other Archangar than Michael.

 

[loDebar]

Never was an Archangar. There has been no other Archangar than Michael.

I think you are correct. We do know Lucifer had a position of authority " and was a " anoited cherub". His names suggest "light bearer"

 

[The Biblicist]

"Your honor, we stipulate that humans are born already condemned. That has been entered into evidence. However this idea of 'being evil at birth by nature' has not been entered into the record and is pure speculation. Move to strike."

Infants are subject to death! Right? Death entered the world by sin! Right (Rom.5:12; Gen. 2:17)? Sin is condemned by God and that condemnation is penalized by death! Right (Gen. 2:17)? We came into this world "condemned already" in a state of unbelief! Right (Jn. 3:17)? Unbelief is sin and all such are under the wrath of God right (Jn. 3:36)? These are incontrovertable indisputable Biblical facts and these alone demand we all enter this world in a state of sin or being a sinner by nature and thus "being evil" by nature. However, we don't have to make logical deductions alone to prove this:

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Metaphors are taken from historical realities.

"The jury will disregard the statement made by The Bilblicist regarding humans being evil by nature at birth."

The Biblical witnesses call in question this crooked prosecutor!

 

[loDebar]

You were condemned as a sinner before the womb because you are not judged as a man, per Jesus

You seen to be comparing physical death to spiritual death. The lost are already spiritually dead.

You seen to be thinking the ability to save oneself as the desire to be saved. We are helpless in ourselves, as the verses point out but can realize our need.

 

[The Biblicist]

You were condemned as a sinner before the womb because you are not judged as a man, per Jesus

You seen to be comparing physical death to spiritual death. The lost are already spiritually dead.

You seen to be thinking the ability to save oneself as the desire to be saved. We are helpless in ourselves, as the verses point out but can realize our need.

Who are you addressing?

 

[loDebar]

I apologize, I shouldn't replied at all.

 

[The Biblicist]

I apologize, I shouldn't replied at all.

no problem, I just didn't want to ignore it, if it had been directed toward me.

 

[loDebar]

It was, but I was out of turn

 

[JPPT1974]

This world since Adam's sin has never been perfect nor never will be or will we be.
But Jesus came and died and rose so that we would not be separated from Him in eternity.
When He comes back or when we leave this world for eternity, we will no longer be ourselves subjected to sin and live in heaven and eternity with Christ.
But other than that, we are only on this world temporary. And sadly with sin. Oh what a beautiful day that will be when we go to heaven or when Jesus comes back.

 

[percho]

Infants are subject to death! Right? Death entered the world by sin! Right (Rom.5:12; Gen. 2:17)? Sin is condemned by God and that condemnation is penalized by death! Right (Gen. 2:17)? We came into this world "condemned already" in a state of unbelief! Right (Jn. 3:17)? Unbelief is sin and all such are under the wrath of God right (Jn. 3:36)? These are incontrovertable indisputable Biblical facts and these alone demand we all enter this world in a state of sin or being a sinner by nature and thus "being evil" by nature. However, we don't have to make logical deductions alone to prove this:

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Metaphors are taken from historical realities.



The Biblical witnesses call in question this crooked prosecutor!

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:5

How far back does the need for redemption go? Redeem? Redeemed from what, Death?

What law was transgressed, sin, that resulted in Death and the need to be redeemed from Death?

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:3

For what (thou shalt not eat of it) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh.

Was Adam of the flesh? Did the law, the strength of sin, subject Adam to futility?

To futility, not willingly. in hope. Hope of being redeemed, which had been foreordained, before the foundation of the world? Before Adam was created?

Does redeem mean to buy back?

 

[Ran the Man]

The phrase “by birth” can infer a genetic component to sin, something alien to original biblical intentions... Our DNA doesn’t produce sin, and doesn’t change upon coming to faith.

Per Romans 5.13, as humans we were held accountable to God once Adam sinned. In other words, Adams sin brought accountability for sin upon humanity.

Rob

I believe the genetic idea. Adam's Sun was volitional and against his own nature since his nature was from God directly. But his offspring has a sin nature. We do this naturally. So I believe that perhaps, the fruit was a kind of poison for us. It brought some kind of altered consciousness that opened their mind, but it also altered their genes and this sin nature was passed on.
All in Adam have sin because it's passed thru the biological father, but not thru the mother. This is why God performed the Incarnation. It was the only way to make a human who was without sin because he has no genetic sin trait passed down from a human father.

 

[The Biblicist]

It was, but I was out of turn

Frankly, I don't understand the point you were making and would have called for clarification anyway.

 

[loDebar]

You have learned our teachings well, but we have been wrong about when we became sinners.

If God gave judgment to Jesus and Jesus says He doesn't judge man, and I am condemned (and judged) already, How can I be condemned, as a man, through any act of Adam, I can't Jesus says so. Furthermore, It Jesus says we can sin in our heart without our body, (adultery) then sin does not continue though the physical but spiritual.

So your position that sin entered the world is correct, But it is the physical world not the spiritual, Satan a spiritual being was here, yet he not physical , Man is the only physical and spiritual being. Adam was a sinner, condemned already, before he was human. When he sinned, the physical world was cursed.

The verses show the comparison of Christ death affect the world as Adam actions affect the world, but his sin could not make us sinners because we already were condemned sinners, needing repentance

 

[The Biblicist]

You have learned our teachings well,

Sorry, but who does "our" refer to????

If God gave judgment to Jesus and Jesus says He doesn't judge man, and I am condemned (and judged) already,

God gave judgement to Jesus - meaning in reference to the Great White Judgement to come or final judgement. Jesus did not come as a man to judge anyone but came as the Savior. He has not yet come as the judge as that is yet future. So you are confusing the present with the future. God judged us as "condemned already" prior to Jesus coming as Savior.

How can I be condemned, as a man, through any act of Adam, I can't Jesus says so.

Jesus did not say so! He merely said that his first coming was not to judge as he did not need to come to judge as man was already condemned prior to his coming and if that were not true then his first coming was for nought as he came as Savior and those not under condemnation DO NOT NEED A SAVIOR.

Jesus plainly says that natural born men need to be born again (Jn. 3:3) because they are born with a heart that is evil, thus "being evil" (Mt. 12:32) need rebirth.

Furthermore, It Jesus says we can sin in our heart without our body, (adultery) then sin does not continue though the physical but spiritual.

No, Jesus does not teach that. He clearly states that adultery is sin just as murder is sin but it is not the root of the sin as the root is the heart (Mt. 15. He is simply repudiating that sin is merely external but is internal as well.

Adam was a sinner, condemned already, before he was human. When he sinned, the physical world was cursed.

No, he was not condemned as a sinner and not condemned under the penalty of sin until "in that day" he actually determined and then partook of the forbidden fruit as that is when "sin" entered the world and "death by sin" - Rom. 5:12

The verses show the comparison of Christ death affect the world as Adam actions affect the world, but his sin could not make us sinners because we already were condemned sinners, needing repentance

Totally and utterly false! Clear and explicit scriptures thoroughly repudiate such nonsense.

 

[Revmitchell]

The logical conclusion to calvinist theology is when babies and children die before they can understand the gospel they go to hell.

A very evil doctrine